Learning Copperplate...

[caliken]

  On 2/11/2011 at 1:51 PM, fuchsiaprincess said:

BTW, how often do you guys need to dip your pen? I'm finding it really frustrating as I run out of ink just as I'm getting into the swing of things.

I think I've already 'broken' one nib - one of the tines is bent during the upstroke

 

Something's gone far wrong here! That's about the worst example of bleed that I've ever seen! It's such a shame, because your pen work looks good, and on track. The nib and penholder are perfect for the job. I'm not familiar with the paper - maybe the finish is just wrong for the purpose.

How often do I need to dip my pen? Aside from the obvious factors like size of lettering and the degree of swell in the downstrokes, I don't have a problem with this. Dipping the nib becomes second nature and I'm usually not aware of it. Some nibs can be quite spectacular and one dip can last for ages. Here's a little example with a Brause Rose 76 nib.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/dippenfinal3.jpg

 

Whatever you do, don't give up - it's just as minor setback.

 

Ken

[caliken]

Soki,

 

Copperplate vs. Spencerian! What a huge subject!

 

Actually, I don't see any real conflict, because I like writing both. Aside from the equipment used, they couldn't be more different. Copperplate writing is a very disciplined style and a lot of the difficulty arises from the fact that there are all the different elements to consider simultaneously e.g. 1) Keeping to the 55 degrees slope line throughout. 2) Applying pressure just after completing a turn out of a hairline and releasing pressure just before turning into a hairline. A little too early or a little too late and the effect is lost. 3) Having established the weight of a downstroke, maintaining it to the same degree throughout a piece of writing. Maintaining even inter-letter spacing throughout. Classic Copperplate as epitomised in "The Universal Penman" is surprising light in shading and the letter forms are quite narrow. 4) Keeping the nib pointing to, or close to the slope line at all times. The oblique holder makes this a bit easier. All straight, weighted lines are parallel from top to bottom.

When everything comes together, Copperplate script can be exquisitely beautiful.

 

In complete contrast, Spencerian employs much greater shading on downstrokes and avoids straight lines wherever possible.The very flexible nibs which are great for Spencerian, aren't necessarily any good for Copperplate writing. A nib which is too flexible, makes the disciplined, even strokes of Copperplate very difficult to control. A stiffer, nib which is ideal for Copperplate doesn't spread sufficiently for the wide swells of Spencerian. This isn't of course, always the case and there are some nibs which do for both styles of script. There is immense subtlety in good Spencerian which can take some time to achieve, and appreciate. For example, the upstoke hairlines joining letters, when executed properly, are a thing of great beauty and IMO are difficult to do well, at first. Spencerian follows the ebb and flow of nature and, at its best, is very attractive. As with Copperplate, the point at which a shaded stroke develops out of a hairline and the timing of the closing of the tines afterwards, is of paramount importance. Some of the swelled strokes require wrist and hand manipulation which can be difficult and is unknown in Copperplate writing. Ornamental Penmanship which is an extension of handwritten Spencerian, can be complex and requires great skill to do well.

 

So, there are two totally different and very beautiful styles of lettering. In terms of the original question regarding difficulty, I'm really on the fence because I love writing both, but have never found either to be particularly easy! If I were forced to make a personal decision, I would probably say that the Copperplate style of handwriting is marginally more difficult because of the disciplines involved, but it's a close call.

 

Having said that, has there ever been a more beautiful example of penmanship, than the incedible Spencerian of Louis Madarasz?

 

Ken

[jglasgow]

  On 2/11/2011 at 2:42 PM, caliken said:

  On 2/11/2011 at 1:51 PM, fuchsiaprincess said:

BTW, how often do you guys need to dip your pen? I'm finding it really frustrating as I run out of ink just as I'm getting into the swing of things.

I think I've already 'broken' one nib - one of the tines is bent during the upstroke

 

Something's gone far wrong here! That's about the worst example of bleed that I've ever seen! It's such a shame, because your pen work looks good, and on track. The nib and penholder are perfect for the job. I'm not familiar with the paper - maybe the finish is just wrong for the purpose.

How often do I need to dip my pen? Aside from the obvious factors like size of lettering and the degree of swell in the downstrokes, I don't have a problem with this. Dipping the nib becomes second nature and I'm usually not aware of it. Some nibs can be quite spectacular and one dip can last for ages. Here's a little example with a Brause Rose 76 nib.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/dippenfinal3.jpg

 

Whatever you do, don't give up - it's just as minor setback.

 

Ken

You have GREAT penmanship...just GREAT!

[fuchsiaprincess]

  On 2/11/2011 at 2:42 PM, caliken said:

  On 2/11/2011 at 1:51 PM, fuchsiaprincess said:

BTW, how often do you guys need to dip your pen? I'm finding it really frustrating as I run out of ink just as I'm getting into the swing of things.

I think I've already 'broken' one nib - one of the tines is bent during the upstroke

 

Something's gone far wrong here! That's about the worst example of bleed that I've ever seen! It's such a shame, because your pen work looks good, and on track. The nib and penholder are perfect for the job. I'm not familiar with the paper - maybe the finish is just wrong for the purpose.

How often do I need to dip my pen? Aside from the obvious factors like size of lettering and the degree of swell in the downstrokes, I don't have a problem with this. Dipping the nib becomes second nature and I'm usually not aware of it. Some nibs can be quite spectacular and one dip can last for ages. Here's a little example with a Brause Rose 76 nib.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/dippenfinal3.jpg

 

Whatever you do, don't give up - it's just as minor setback.

 

Ken

 

Hi Ken,

 

Tell me about it You haven't even seen the underside of the paper!

 

By the way, thank you very much for the grid. It is fantastic. May I ask a silly question? The grid is used for practise, until one gets the hang of the angle, right?

 

I want to be like you when I grow up

 

Warm regards,

Soki

[fuchsiaprincess]

  On 2/11/2011 at 3:36 PM, caliken said:

Soki,

 

Copperplate vs. Spencerian! What a huge subject!

 

Actually, I don't see any real conflict, because I like writing both. Aside from the equipment used, they couldn't be more different. Copperplate writing is a very disciplined style and a lot of the difficulty arises from the fact that there are all the different elements to consider simultaneously e.g. 1) Keeping to the 55 degrees slope line throughout. 2) Applying pressure just after completing a turn out of a hairline and releasing pressure just before turning into a hairline. A little too early or a little too late and the effect is lost. 3) Having established the weight of a downstroke, maintaining it to the same degree throughout a piece of writing. Maintaining even inter-letter spacing throughout. Classic Copperplate as epitomised in "The Universal Penman" is surprising light in shading and the letter forms are quite narrow. 4) Keeping the nib pointing to, or close to the slope line at all times. The oblique holder makes this a bit easier. All straight, weighted lines are parallel from top to bottom.

When everything comes together, Copperplate script can be exquisitely beautiful.

 

In complete contrast, Spencerian employs much greater shading on downstrokes and avoids straight lines wherever possible.The very flexible nibs which are great for Spencerian, aren't necessarily any good for Copperplate writing. A nib which is too flexible, makes the disciplined, even strokes of Copperplate very difficult to control. A stiffer, nib which is ideal for Copperplate doesn't spread sufficiently for the wide swells of Spencerian. This isn't of course, always the case and there are some nibs which do for both styles of script. There is immense subtlety in good Spencerian which can take some time to achieve, and appreciate. For example, the upstoke hairlines joining letters, when executed properly, are a thing of great beauty and IMO are difficult to do well, at first. Spencerian follows the ebb and flow of nature and, at its best, is very attractive. As with Copperplate, the point at which a shaded stroke develops out of a hairline and the timing of the closing of the tines afterwards, is of paramount importance. Some of the swelled strokes require wrist and hand manipulation which can be difficult and is unknown in Copperplate writing. Ornamental Penmanship which is an extension of handwritten Spencerian, can be complex and requires great skill to do well.

 

So, there are two totally different and very beautiful styles of lettering. In terms of the original question regarding difficulty, I'm really on the fence because I love writing both, but have never found either to be particularly easy! If I were forced to make a personal decision, I would probably say that the Copperplate style of handwriting is marginally more difficult because of the disciplines involved, but it's a close call.

 

Having said that, has there ever been a more beautiful example of penmanship, than the incedible Spencerian of Louis Madarasz?

 

Ken

 

Thank you for answering my question so comprehensively, Ken! You are indeed my hero

 

I think I shall stick with Copperplate for now. I had a very brief episode of pure bliss when I was "in the zone", but the nib ran out of ink

 

Thank you once again!

 

Warm regards,

Soki

[Dueller]

The first couple of lines i wasn't really concentrating but then i took my time and got better results. I think a couple more of these sheets and then i'll move on to the next lesson.

[smk]

  On 2/11/2011 at 1:51 PM, fuchsiaprincess said:

OK, Salman. I'm in

 

I took 45 minutes on this little practice piece :

 

--snip--

 

The main problem I had was the terrible bleed-through, which didn't go away despite changing inks The paper I used was HP laser printer paper (white) 120gsm. I used a Gillot 303 with one of the thicker handled oblique nib holder.

 

BTW, how often do you guys need to dip your pen? I'm finding it really frustrating as I run out of ink just as I'm getting into the swing of things.

 

I think I've already 'broken' one nib - one of the tines is bent during the upstroke

 

Soki- its lovely to have you along :clap1:

 

I suspect the terrible bleed-through is causing to the pen to dry up soon so I suspect fixing one will help with the other. If you can get some Mondi IQ Selection in 100gsm I think you'll love it. I also like the pad I'm using which has thin enough paper for the guide sheet to show through (its called Simply Marker Pad and is from Daler-Rowney in 70g/m2 i.e. 30lbs).

 

Your exercise sheet looks lovely and I think you'll find yourself bang on target if the paper was any good. I have read in places that Higgins Eternal with a few drops of Gum Arabic is good for Copperplate and doesn't bleed on most papers.

 

Sorry to hear about the broken nib - I've come close a couple of times myself.

 

  On 2/11/2011 at 2:24 PM, Ghost Plane said:

If you all knew what pleasure you are giving to those of us who can only watch and marvel...

 

And we can feel the positive vibes from your presence :-)

 

 

  On 2/11/2011 at 2:26 PM, jglasgow said:

This is EXACTLY the kinda thing I've been looking for...I'm a lurker, and I've been following this thread...even ordered "The Universal Penman" last night. Here's the question...I just bought a Pelikan 800 with the EF nib, and while I LOVE the pen, it obviously wasn't designed for Copperplate or Spencerian. Is there a pen that works well for both, as well as being a fine, everyday writing instrument...do I just need a different nib made, if so which one, or an entirely different pen...Additionally, the guide sheet is FABULOUS...

 

Its lovely to see this kind of enthusiasm. I believe Wickwack uses the Noodler's flex nib pen and will probably be better able to comment on its abilities. The consensus seems to be that oblique holders produce the best results for right handed people.

 

Its great to have you along.

 

Salman

[smk]

  On 2/11/2011 at 6:38 PM, Dueller said:

The first couple of lines i wasn't really concentrating but then i took my time and got better results. I think a couple more of these sheets and then i'll move on to the next lesson.

 

I'll leave the critique to more experienced people but I must say I envy your control and consistent slant. And your hairlines are pretty fine too.

 

Salman

[smk]

Here's my exercise for lesson 1. I'm going to start with lesson 2 now.

 

 

Observations

1. I start the shade too quickly after the top curve - the control seems to be better at the bottom transition.

2. The squared tops and bottoms are still eluding me. I think mastering these will require a few focussed sessions. I'm looking forward to getting these under control.

 

Goals for next lesson

1. Maintain consistent slant.

2. Pay attention to the beginning of the shade - don't start too early.

 

Salman

[Wickwack]

I LOVE my Noodler's Flex pen ($14 ) and highly recommend it. I am experimenting with various dip pen nibs also so I appreciate the sample from the (edit)Brause Rose 76. Working on more practice tonight - will post soon.

2nd edit: Anyone know where I can get a good oblique pen holder???

Edited February 11, 2011 by Wickwack

[caliken]

  On 2/11/2011 at 10:24 PM, Wickwack said:

Anyone know where I can get a good oblique pen holder???

 

www.paperinkarts.com have a good stock and an online catalogue.

 

caliken

[Dueller]

  On 2/11/2011 at 8:20 PM, smk said:

  On 2/11/2011 at 6:38 PM, Dueller said:

The first couple of lines i wasn't really concentrating but then i took my time and got better results. I think a couple more of these sheets and then i'll move on to the next lesson.

 

I'll leave the critique to more experienced people but I must say I envy your control and consistent slant. And your hairlines are pretty fine too.

 

Salman

 

Because the guide lines on my sheet are light blue they did not show up in the scan but they are there. I really had to concentrate to get the slant consistent, but that is the reason we are all practicing. Also i was very slow and deliberate with each stroke, thinking about what i wanted to achieve. I found it easier to angle the paper so that each stroke i was actually pulling the nib directly towards me. I usually write using my wrist and fingers to make the letters so it was quite a challenge to get used to using my whole arm to produce the strokes.

 

Lee

[Dueller]

  On 2/11/2011 at 11:37 PM, caliken said:

  On 2/11/2011 at 10:24 PM, Wickwack said:

Anyone know where I can get a good oblique pen holder???

 

www.paperinkarts.com have a good stock and an online catalogue.

 

caliken

 

I got my Century 5/8ths oblique from John Neal Booksellers.

 

http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/s?keyword=century

[Wickwack]

Thank you caliken & Dueller for the info -

Rhea

[Dueller]

  On 2/11/2011 at 8:20 PM, smk said:

  On 2/11/2011 at 6:38 PM, Dueller said:

The first couple of lines i wasn't really concentrating but then i took my time and got better results. I think a couple more of these sheets and then i'll move on to the next lesson.

 

I'll leave the critique to more experienced people but I must say I envy your control and consistent slant. And your hairlines are pretty fine too.

 

Salman

 

The guidlines are light blue so they do not show in the scan. I worked at a slow pace and had to concentrate all the time to try and get them consistant. I normally write with my fingers and wrist so it was harder to get used to using my whole arm. I angle the paper so that the srokes are made pulling the pen directly towards me.

 

Your practice is looking very good, i like the colour of the ink. It does seem to give a good contrast of thick and thin strokes. It's still a begining for most of us and a little practice each day will bring improvements as time passes.

 

Lee

Edited February 12, 2011 by Dueller

[Dueller]

  On 2/11/2011 at 11:37 PM, caliken said:

  On 2/11/2011 at 10:24 PM, Wickwack said:

Anyone know where I can get a good oblique pen holder???

 

www.paperinkarts.com have a good stock and an online catalogue.

 

caliken

 

I got a century 5/8ths oblique from here. The 5/8ths is slightly wider which a find more comfortable and controllable.

 

http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/s?keyword=century

[Dueller]

The weekend here i can look forward to some relaxing practice. In the main room of our house where we have the sofa/couch, the computer and television, we also have a large table. When my girlfriend and i are relaxing in the evenings we are both in the same room and can talk to each other which is nice.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Dueller

[fuchsiaprincess]

Thank you everyone! Prior to this topic, I actually thought that all photocopy paper was the same (well, except for the different weights) :embarrassed_smile:

 

I reprinted Ken's grid on some G Lalo 100% cotton paper, and the results are much better. Will hunt around for Mondi IQ Selection.

 

Salman and Dueller, your penmanship are amazing! I need to set aside more time to practise.

 

Here's my second effort :

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y331/fuchsiaprincess/IMGP2261.jpg

 

Salman - you are correct; I am getting much more loops in before needing to dip again now that the paper isn't absorbing all that ink. BTW, which lessons are you following? I have printed Baird's lesson, but haven't commenced them yet. Still just playing with the practice sheet that Ken provided, until I'm comfortable with the control.

 

My main issue is still with the upstroke. I have broken yet another nib. And I'm generally not a heavy-handed writer. I wonder whether my angle is incorrect.

 

You guys are an inspiration - thanks a lot! And Salman, I really admire your organised approach to the lessons

 

Warm regards,

Soki

[caliken]

Soki,

 

It's looking good and you're making excellent progress.

 

Just a couple of points which may help. Your shaded downstrokes are a bit heavy for Copperplate letters at that size. If you try lighter-weight shaded strokes, it'll look better and will be easier to control consistently (and your nibs will last longer!)

 

When you come to write letters with ascenders and descenders, if you leave two blank lines between the lines of writing, there will be room for the ascenders and descenders without clashing or overlapping.

 

Upstroke hairlines should be formed with the lightest possible touch - just the weight of the nib on the paper is sufficient.

 

Please excuse me if I am stating the obvious, but there may be some who are just starting out who are new to all this. :embarrassed_smile:

[caliken]

  On 2/12/2011 at 12:34 AM, Dueller said:

I usually write using my wrist and fingers to make the letters so it was quite a challenge to get used to using my whole arm to produce the strokes.

 

Dueller,

 

Here are three different viewpoints on the subject of Copperplate handwritng. They are from respected sources in the IAMPETH archives.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Graphichovis400.jpg

 

I'm with E.L.Brown on this, when he says -

"..it cannot be written with good results with any but the finger movement."

 

I do wish than some writers were less dogmatic about this. There are obviously several equally vaild techniques, all achieving the same results; I just happen to get my best results with finger movement.

 

Ken

Edited February 12, 2011 by caliken