Your Handwriting Quality?

[James Pickering]

  umenohana said:

  HDoug said:

Stumpy (and anyone else), by the way, I saw your entry in the italic competition and want to ask you something.  Your minuscule d's have the reverse ascender slant that I've seen in 18th century British captain's logs and that sort of thing ..........

I think people used to write with the reverse ascender d, because the quill lays down more ink. If you try to write a more modern "d" with a quill, you'll notice that the ascender becomes swollen with ink.

 

Just my theory.

 

-Hana

I have never thought of that, Hana -- I have always used that "reversed ascender" d letterform (nice description Doug) when rendering various medieval writing hands, however, I render the "modern" d using a quill with no difficulty.

 

Exemplar written on Cowley manuscript vellum using a hand-cut reservoired goose quill:

 

http://jp29.org/cal69.jpg

[umenohana]

Pickering san,

 

I wonder if you mean italics, or longhand. I meant longhand, which would require going down and over the ascender twice on the same spot.

 

Or maybe I'm just not very good with the quill.

 

-Hana

[James Pickering]

  umenohana said:

Pickering san,

 

I wonder if you mean italics, or longhand. I meant longhand, which would require going down and over the ascender twice on the same spot.

 

Or maybe I'm just not very good with the quill.

 

-Hana

Please describe longhand, Hana.

 

James

[umenohana]

  James Pickering said:

  umenohana said:

Pickering san,

 

I wonder if you mean italics, or longhand. I meant longhand, which would require going down and over the ascender twice on the same spot.

 

Or maybe I'm just not very good with the quill.

 

-Hana

Please describe longhand, Hana.

 

James

The letters are joined together in longhand, aka "cursive".

 

-Hana

[James Pickering]

  umenohana said:

  James Pickering said:

  umenohana said:

Pickering san,

 

I wonder if you mean italics, or longhand. I meant longhand, which would require going down and over the ascender twice on the same spot.

 

Or maybe I'm just not very good with the quill.

 

-Hana

Please describe longhand, Hana.

 

James

The letters are joined together in longhand, aka "cursive".

 

-Hana

I see, Hana, I just wanted to get your definition.

 

Of course, cursive does not necessarily mean all the letters are joined together -- many of the later renaissance Italic writing masters (such as Cataneo, Amphiareo, Lucas, et al) used a Cancellaresca corsiva (Chancery cursive) hand in which the letterforms stood alone -- without joins.

 

The Webster dictionary definition for cursive writing is:

 

flowing often with the strokes of successive characters joined ..........

 

The definition for running hand is ..........

 

handwriting in which the letters are usually slanted and all the words formed without lifting the pen.

 

.......... which is what I think you meant.

 

James

[umenohana]

  James Pickering said:

  umenohana said:

  James Pickering said:

  umenohana said:

Pickering san,

 

I wonder if you mean italics, or longhand. I meant longhand, which would require going down and over the ascender twice on the same spot.

 

Or maybe I'm just not very good with the quill.

 

-Hana

Please describe longhand, Hana.

 

James

The letters are joined together in longhand, aka "cursive".

 

-Hana

I see, Hana, I just wanted to get your definition.

 

Of course, cursive does not necessarily mean all the letters are joined together -- many of the later renaissance Italic writing masters (such as Cataneo, Amphiareo, Lucas, et al) used a Cancellaresca corsiva (Chancery cursive) hand in which the letterforms stood alone -- without joins.

 

The Webster dictionary definition for cursive writing is:

 

flowing often with the strokes of successive characters joined ..........

 

The definition for running hand is ..........

 

handwriting in which the letters are usually slanted and all the words formed without lifting the pen.

 

.......... which is what I think you meant.

 

James

Yes! That's it!

 

But according to Wikipedia: 'Cursive is any style of handwriting in which all the letters in a word are connected, making a word one single (complicated) stroke. In British English, the phrase "joined-up writing" is far more commonly used, while the term "running writing" is sometimes used in Australia. Cursive is considered distinct from the so-called "printing" or "block letter" style of handwriting, in which the letters of a word are unconnected, and from "print-writing", which is a cross between cursive and printing, with some unconnected letters and some connected.'

 

Does it need editing? Or are the differences a regional thing?

 

-Hana

[RLTodd]

I am happy if the reader can understand my simplified Z-B.

[James Pickering]

Here is snippet from a document I wrote with a hand-cut, reservoired, goose quill that illustrates the "reverse ascender" d letterform that Doug mentioned:

 

http://jp29.org/File0150.jpg

[James Pickering]

  umenohana said:

..........

But according to Wikipedia: 'Cursive is any style of handwriting in which all the letters in a word are connected, making a word one single (complicated) stroke.

 

Well, of course, Hana we should not put a lot of faith in Wikipedia for definitive information -- after all it is nothing more than a compilation of input from individuals of the WWW population at large.

 

  Quote

In British English, the phrase "joined-up writing" is far more commonly used, while the term "running writing" is sometimes used in Australia. Cursive is considered distinct from the so-called "printing" or "block letter" style of handwriting, in which the letters of a word are unconnected, and from "print-writing", which is a cross between cursive and printing, with some unconnected letters and some connected ..........

 

I was born and grew up in Burnley Lancashire, England where I learned and studied calligraphy, bookbinding and letterform wood block cutting (in 1939) -- we never used the term "joined-up writing" that I can remember, but we did use "running hand" in the sense I outlined and similarly "cursive" writing the way I outlined. (I don't know about Australia) We used Johnston & Hewitt as our reference texts. More to the point, the Italian writing renaissance masters described their own unjoined letterform writing as corsiva (cursive).

 

Were you thinking of Johnston's "print-script" when you referred to "print-writing", Hana?

 

James

[umenohana]

  James Pickering said:

Were you thinking of Johnston's "print-script" when you referred to "print-writing", Hana?

 

James

I meant nothing by it-- I just left it there as part of the quote. :ph34r:

 

I thought "print script" is the most basic form of writing taught in schools.

 

I believe Wikipedia may have gotten their definition from sources like Princeton University's WordNet, which also states that cursive is a "rapid handwriting in which letters are set down in full and cursively connected within words without lifting the writing implement from the paper."

 

-Hana

[James Pickering]

  umenohana said:

I believe Wikipedia may have gotten their definition from sources like Princeton University's WordNet, which also states that cursive is a "rapid handwriting in which letters are set down in full and cursively connected within words without lifting the writing implement from the paper."

 

Yes, Hana, there are many definitions extant that differ in some degree. As you can imagine in my sixty seven years of teaching and rendering a multitude of writing hands I have encountered numerous ones. I prefer to use the Dictionary definitions because that reference is available universally -- of course I am also somewhat biased because the Dictionary definitions coincide with the ones I was taught and have used for many years.

 

Pertinent to our specific discussion, Stephen Harvard (surely one of the most eminent and respected American letter artists) points out in his introduction to the published facsimile Cataneo Manuscript: "..... another sign of the formality of Cataneo's corsiva is that virtually each letter stands alone; there are none of the diagonal joins that inevitably develop in a true running script."

 

Cancellaresca corsiva is characterized by generous, kerned, ascenders and descenders, flourished or swash majuscules (capitals) and with the individual letters often joined -- sometimes as a running hand -- but not always.

 

Paul Standard treats "running hand" as a subset of cursive writing:

 

http://jp29.org/cal341.JPG

[umenohana]

Thank you very much for your lessons, sir! They are always much appreciated.

 

-Hana

[James Pickering]

  umenohana said:

Thank you very much for your lessons, sir!    They are always much appreciated.

 

-Hana

I hope I don't come across as lecturing, Hana. I like to think this is a meaningful discussion between equals -- an interchange of information which, in this case, serves to clarify what each of us means when we use the terminology outlined.

[umenohana]

  James Pickering said:

  umenohana said:

Thank you very much for your lessons, sir!    They are always much appreciated.

 

-Hana

I hope I don't come across as lecturing, Hana. I like to think this is a meaningful discussion between equals -- an interchange of information which, in this case, serves to clarify what each of us means when we use the terminology outlined.

No, no, I wasn't being sarcastic. Really, I learn a lot from you.

 

-Hana

[Michael Dubitante]

  chud said:

  Quicksilver said:

I decided it after reading this article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15229032/

Maybe in addition to teaching the penmanship side of writing more attention should be given to the content as well.

 

"Less Students Learning Cursive Handwriting" ???

hey i thought everybody used joined up handwriting = cursive? If not what do they do- print??

[wdyasq]

This has been a very informative discussion. I wish to thank Hana and Mr. Pickering for using the terms they have. I guess it shows there is always something to learn and someone who can teach.

 

Ron

[chud]

  Michael Dubitante said:

hey i thought everybody used joined up handwriting = cursive? If not what do they do- print??

Print, or type. Computers show up in classrooms pretty early these days, at least in the wealthier parts of the world.

[Erik]

Very important. I write the alphabet on a piece of paper, at the very least, 10 times a day, and I also practise various handwriting styles and scripts.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Erik

[umenohana]

  Erik said:

Very important. I write the alphabet on a piece of paper, at the very least, 10 times a day, and I also practise various handwriting styles and scripts.

You sound sorta obsessed! :roflmho: ...as am I!

 

-Hana

[Patrick Hand]

Drat... kinda got caught up in the thread.... and had to go back and look up the topic.....

 

Handwritting quality.....

 

About three years ago, I decided that I was tired of my poor handwritting (Crab hand... lefty...) So I decided to re-learn how to write.... played with some different styles.... wanted to come up with a "good Hand" (Pretty just dosen't sound very manly.... )

 

Having fun with it.... (and now about to have even more with my new pen... fine line very flexable nib..... so I can do cool roundhand......)

 

Anyway....

 

Now.... I kinda like having people tell me what "nice handwritting" I have......

 

I have to practice a lot more.... but it is fun..........