Waverley Triumph Nibs

[Hugh200au]

  On 12/23/2010 at 9:01 AM, AD71 said:

If my clumsy word - I understand, I agree and have apologized several times for it, especially to Richard Binder himself, haven't I ? - arouses so many reactions, even "energetically grumpy admonishments", I do think that a neophyte as I am has no place on this forum.

Thank you to those who treated me leniently and answered my question about "upturned Sheaffer nibs".

Regards.

 

Don't let it worry you!! At the end of the day we're all here for one reason....pens!! Your question was a simple one and that's all there is to it. Who really cares if a word is misused? Not me!! Please continue here and enjoy.

 

Regards

Hugh

[PenHero]

  On 12/23/2010 at 9:01 AM, AD71 said:

If my clumsy word - I understand, I agree and have apologized several times for it, especially to Richard Binder himself, haven't I ? - arouses so many reactions, even "energetically grumpy admonishments", I do think that a neophyte as I am has no place on this forum.

Thank you to those who treated me leniently and answered my question about "upturned Sheaffer nibs".

Regards.

 

I don't think any of the comments were intended personally to you. There is a concern among collectors who see misinformation creep into the knowledgebase of the hobby. The fact that you brought it up does not mean that the subsequent discussion was about you, it was about the concept that we are seeing the term being applied to Sheaffer in a way that is not correct. The discussion succeeded in surfacing the source, who agreed to make changes in how he presents his trademark. In all, this is a good thing, so be happy that you stirred the pot and something positive happened.

 

Welcome! And please stir the pot again.

[Johnny Appleseed]

  On 12/21/2010 at 11:01 PM, PenHero said:

If that's the case, it sounds like a marketing name, not a descriptive name. If Richard wants to call a grind a "Waverley" grind, that's ok with me. I just don't like the idea of a term Sheaffer did not use bleeding into the Sheaffer lexicon as if it has specific relevance to the brand.

 

As to Aerometric and Flighter, I've seen these terms misused to the point of silliness. Aerometric is often used for any squeeze type converter, when in fact its original use was not a converter at all, but an integral Parker squeeze filler with a breather tube. Any real "aerometric" filler would include a breather tube, hence the name. Squeeze converters don't count. As to "flighters", I get the concept of any all stainless steel cap and barrel pen being called a "flighter", Parker or not, but I've seen non-stainless steel pens, such as Sheaffer brushed chrome models being called "Flighters", primarily because they are silver colored, when in fact they are made of chrome plated brass. Definitely not a "flighter". FWIW, there are very few all stainless steel Sheaffer pens. Most of those silver ones are actually brushed chrome.

 

Actually, I am not sure even Parker ever used the term aerometric - the original was Aero-Metric and was used for the specific filler in the Parker 51 with the extra hole in the breather tube. Some of the more pedantic among us would say that it can only be used for the Parker 51 and one or two versions of the Parker 21. I would agree that an aerometric should only apply to breather-tubed squeeze fillers, and the flighter to stainless.

 

  On 12/22/2010 at 3:49 AM, Richard said:

The whole Waverley thing got started this time around when I discovered Waverley fountain pens, which were made by the Macniven and Cameron Pen Company. I tracked the name back to its origin, which was the Waverley steel pen (dip nib) invented by Duncan Cameron in 1964. (The name was a tribute to Sir Walter Scott, author of the Waverley Novels.) Since Macniven and Cameron stopped making pens of any sort in the 1960s, its Waverley trademark is legally dead insofar as it applied to pens, so I took the name up and have trademarked it for my own turned-up nibs.

 

Must have been a short lived style if it was invented in 1964 and they stopped making pens of any sort in the 1960s. . .

 

[i think you mean 1864. . .]

 

John

[ToasterPastry]

I was hoping to jump in on the Waverly nib subject, but Richard beat me to the answer. The Waverly product was made by MacNiven and Cameron Pen. I might add that Richard is off by one century, though: it's 1860, not 1960. Later M & C pens (1920s), featured the standard "Warranted" nib, but some pens do have the Waverly design in gold.

[PenHero]

  On 12/23/2010 at 7:53 PM, Johnny Appleseed said:

Actually, I am not sure even Parker ever used the term aerometric - the original was Aero-Metric and was used for the specific filler in the Parker 51 with the extra hole in the breather tube. Some of the more pedantic among us would say that it can only be used for the Parker 51 and one or two versions of the Parker 21. I would agree that an aerometric should only apply to breather-tubed squeeze fillers, and the flighter to stainless.

 

In 1949, Parker called the pen the Aero-metric Parker 51, and the filling system, the Foto-Fill Filler and part of their campaign on the new model. Note the small "m" in "metric," if we are going to be picky... :roflmho: I personally don't see much difference between "aero-metric" and "aerometric", if we are being descriptive.

 

The description of the pen and filling system did evolve. Here is a 1949 advertisement for the new Aero-metric Parker 51 with the new Foto-Fill Filler. Guess we could also call them "foto-fillers".

 

 

This 1949 advertisement calls the filling unit the "Foto-Fill Filler" and does not mention aerometric at all.

 

 

And this 1949 advertisement calls the pen the Aero-metric Parker 51 and does not mention the filler by name.

 

 

Browsing through 1949 advertisements, Parker was consistent using the names in this fashion, Aero-metric for the pen and Foto-Fill Filler for the filling system.

 

In 1950, Parker changed the advertisements typically with a catch line like "Parker 51 with the Aero-metric Ink System," shifting the "Aero-metric" term to the filling system, which is in common use today.

 

 

By 1952, the two names are generally dropped in advertisements, likely because the new style 51 was accepted over the previous Vacumatic pen.

 

Yes, I know I did a left turn into Parker land... :-)

Edited December 23, 2010 by PenHero

[Woody]

If you want to continue being nit picky, then you all should note that it is Parker "51" (notice the quotes) or "51" (again, notice the quotes), not Parker 51, or 51. The proof is right there in the ads that were posted.

 

:ltcapd:

[PenHero]

  On 12/24/2010 at 1:06 AM, Woody said:

If you want to continue being nit picky, then you all should note that it is Parker "51" (notice the quotes) or "51" (again, notice the quotes), not Parker 51, or 51. The proof is right there in the ads that were posted.

 

:ltcapd:

 

Awesome!!!!! :roflmho: :ltcapd:

[AD71]

Might I remind you my question ? "What vintage Sheaffer models were fitted with waverley upturned nibs ?"

Edited December 24, 2010 by AD71

[kirchh]

  On 12/23/2010 at 9:30 PM, PenHero said:

In 1950, Parker changed the advertisements typically with a catch line like "Parker 51 with the Aero-metric Ink System," shifting the "Aero-metric" term to the filling system, which is in common use today.

 

Not quite. Note the wording "Aero-metric Ink System," not filling system. I think Parker was trying to convey that all aspects of the ink handling were compatible with air travel. Indeed, the ad refers to "the remarkable Aero-metric ink system, the new, scientific way to draw in, store, safeguard, and release ink", and also says, "the new Foto-fill filler is faster." So the distinction was still in effect.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

  On 12/24/2010 at 8:24 AM, AD71 said:

Might I remind you my question ? "What vintage Sheaffer models were fitted with waverley upturned nibs ?"

It is difficult to supply a comprehensive answer, as Sheaffer seems to have begun using turned up nibs on some items in the early 1930s, and the continued to do so for several decades.

 

--Daniel

[teej47]

  On 12/24/2010 at 8:24 AM, AD71 said:

Might I remind you my question ? "What vintage Sheaffer models were fitted with waverley upturned nibs ?"

 

In the most generic terms, the conical nibs of the forties and fifties (and beyond) typically have upturned points, as do most of the inlaid nibs that succeeded them. Most of the open nibs from the thirties on don't. Notice I said "most".

 

Conical (usually referred to as "Triumph") nibs normally have a distinct upward curve to the tip, and this seems to be an inherent feature of the design. However, sometimes the subtlety of that curve is enough to render it non-existent. If you happen to find an open nibbed Sheaffer from the thirties or forties with an upturned point it will likely be an even sweeter writer than it's more typical brethren (if that's even possible). I've never seen anything to suggest that those nibs are associated with any particular model.

 

Now, to what may be the best answer to your question... In the forties, pens with Triumph nibs are frequently (correctly or not) called a "Triumph". During the fifties, upturned conical nibs seem to be what most Snorkels were equipped with. After that... well, then we're talking about what to me is "modern", and thus outside my realm of interest (it's gotta be older than me to be interesting).

 

Hope that helps.

 

Tim

[longhandwriter]

"The whole Waverley thing got started this time around when I discovered Waverley fountain pens, which were made by the Macniven and Cameron Pen Company. I tracked the name back to its origin, which was the Waverley steel pen (dip nib) invented by Duncan Cameron in 1964. (The name was a tribute to Sir Walter Scott, author of the Waverley Novels.) Since Macniven and Cameron stopped making pens of any sort in the 1960s, its Waverley trademark is legally dead insofar as it applied to pens, so I took the name up and have trademarked it for my own turned-up nibs."

 

The above is an extract from Richard Binder's post

For what it is worth here is an actual Waverley pen clearly impressed as such but crucially without its nib! I can't make any comments therefore about its nib or properties but I believe that the company was based in Edinburgh, Scotland where I live and I would dearly like to obtain a nib to fit. I hope the jpegs give some small insight into the Waverley subject and perhaps someone out there has my nib. Regards

Edited January 25, 2011 by longhandwriter

[DrPJM1]

  On 12/24/2010 at 6:30 PM, kirchh said:

  On 12/24/2010 at 8:24 AM, AD71 said:

Might I remind you my question ? "What vintage Sheaffer models were fitted with waverley upturned nibs ?"

It is difficult to supply a comprehensive answer, as Sheaffer seems to have begun using turned up nibs on some items in the early 1930s, and the continued to do so for several decades.

 

--Daniel

 

 

True, even some Sheaffer Balance nibs have an upturned tip. Just don't call it waverly when Daniel is around

[kirchh]

  On 1/25/2011 at 2:45 PM, DrPJM1 said:

  On 12/24/2010 at 6:30 PM, kirchh said:

  On 12/24/2010 at 8:24 AM, AD71 said:

Might I remind you my question ? "What vintage Sheaffer models were fitted with waverley upturned nibs ?"

It is difficult to supply a comprehensive answer, as Sheaffer seems to have begun using turned up nibs on some items in the early 1930s, and the continued to do so for several decades.

 

--Daniel

True, even some Sheaffer Balance nibs have an upturned tip. Just don't call it waverly when Daniel is around

Waverly? Dunno what that is. I have heard of "Waverley", though...

 

--Daniel

[Juicyjones]

  On 12/21/2010 at 8:45 PM, Paddler said:

  On 12/21/2010 at 9:48 AM, AD71 said:

Hello !

I really love Sheaffer's Triumph nibs, such as the Modern Crest's long 18k gold ones.

I have read on Richard Binder's site that some of Sheaffer's Triumph nibs were Waverley upturned. I would like to know what models were fitted with these waverley nibs. I would prefer long and smooth ones. If they were made of gold, it would be perfect.

Thank you for your help and sorry for my mistakes : I am French !

 

I have a Sheaffer "Valiant" with the upturned nib. The nib is an open design and two-toned. The pen is standard size (not a Thin Model) plastic, with gold plated silver (vermeil?) furniture. It has the military style clip. This pen is the finest writer I have ever tried.

 

Paddler

 

I have the same nib on my Snorkel Valiant in Mandarin Orange. This fine-point pen is either my very best writer, or tied in a neck-and-neck race for that title with my old P51 Vac fine-point. Whichever one is in my hand currently is the best one, but no other pens in my collection compare to them while writing.

[hariharan]

am coming back to this thread as i recently got a triumph sentinel (deluxe) pen as a PIF. First i thought the nib is damaged and i thought i need to restore it .

 

Thanks to FP forum, it was clarified that its the original design..

 

 

  On 12/21/2010 at 9:06 PM, terim said:

What do you think? Do these qualify? I certainly get enough customers wondering if their nib is bent ....

TERI

[Encre Noire]

  On 1/25/2011 at 6:38 PM, kirchh said:

Waverly? Dunno what that is. I have heard of "Waverley", though...

 

--Daniel

Expand  

 

"Waverly" is what Pilot calls their turnip er turn-up nib. I just ordered a Waverly(sic) on a Custom Heritage 912.

[awa54]

  On 12/21/2010 at 9:06 PM, terim said:

....

 

... I certainly get enough customers wondering if their nib is bent ....

 

TERI

Expand  

 

I feel a little queasy every time I see a Sheaffer listed on that auction site, which features a nib that has been "fixed" by some well meaning seller, who straightened the tines... 😭 

 

fortunately, it's not all that common an occurrence.

[tzinc]

Let's just call these Upturned Nibs. These seem as perfect edc nibs since your angle doesn't matter and it is smooth on any paper. When you're out and about it would come in handy or even in a non-controlled work environment. I wonder why they are not more popular. In their first go around they don't seem to have been a huge hit. PILOT makes one but they make many niche nibs (Music, FA etc) with limited appeal.

 

I wonder if they made it for cheaper pens or other companies made it might be more popular. I am sure people do get used to writing a certain way and the flexibility of an upturned nib isn't really a needed feature. I realize making a nib only make sense if the demand is there. I remember years ago I kind of accidentally upturned a nib on a cheap fountain pen and it wrote better after that lol. Maybe part of it is it is only available as a medium.

[jmccarty3]

I like the cool appearance of both the Sheaffer and Pilot upturned nibs, but I don't get the claim that they are better for left-handers. I'm a leftie underwriter, and I don't find either one to write more easily than straight-tine nibs. Maybe the difference is better appreciated by overwriters. The only effect of the upturned nib that I can see is that it would lower the writing angle, but I already hold my pens at a fairly low angle, so perhaps that explains the lack of difference. Whatever the result, I applaud any company that makes a wide choice of nibs available to its customers.