Calligraphy

[caliken]

  On 12/19/2010 at 6:18 AM, beak said:

The penMANship discussion:

I've started another thread ('Do people often misunderstand you...') where this might better be continued.

I don't know how to provide a link to that thread - can some kind soul inform me?

 

 

here is the link you need.

[Ghost Plane]

If it were down to me, I'd call it "Pretty Scribbles" and not worry about it. As long as we know what we're chatting about in here, does the name really matter?

 

In some people's hands a pen will create beautiful art. In my hands, the same pen will probably look like a drunken spider crawled out of the ink pot and lurched across the page. Yet, somehow, we're all using a written form of communication.

 

Let's agree to differ and enjoy the contents in here.

[Miranda]

This is Ken's very helpful advice on how to use a flex nib.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/177638-so-this-flexing-stuff/page__pid__1783080#entry1783080

 

 

 

For the tines to spread evenly when flexing, the nib has to point at the slope angle. The oblique holder was designed to make this physically easier.

I wrote this in red gouache, to make the tines easier to see. Also, I loaded the nib on the underside with a brush to keep the upper surface clear of colour....again for clarity. The nib is a Hunt 101.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Flex225demo.jpg

 

 

 

I believe this clearly demonstrates why penmanship is the broader of the two terms. Caliken is teaching one of the skills of penmanship: he is not doing calligraphy. According to the OED, the word derives from Old Fr for quill and Man, as in Man, not hand. So to become a penman, one has to master^‡ all the skills involved in using pens. It is far more than a 'fancy word for handwriting' and has a venerable history.

 

 

Calligraphy does literally mean 'beautiful writing', and, yes, we think of the term as being more broad and less Western. But I expect that there are equivalent words for penmanship in every language.

 

 

^{‡ or to become a penwoman one has to mistress the skills}

 

 

[rockspyder]

  On 11/30/2010 at 7:56 PM, Renzhe said:

Calligraphy and handwriting are the same thing to me. Therefore, no calligraphy section.

I disagree with this oversimplified statement Renzhe, my handwriting is quite hideous and often illegible many times, yet I also do formal calligraphy, and see it as an entirely different form of expression. The DISCIPLINE of formal calligraphic fonts is what I enjoy. For those on the forum who are pilots, the difference between IFR and VFR flight is probably the best comparison I can think of. Both involve flying an aircraft, but the formality of discipline is totally different.

In my opinion, yes, go for it. I would love to see a section on calligraphy!

[Ghost Plane]

Hmph! My scrawl looks like something done under the hood [to continue the analogy]. I appreciate that a lot of us need some dual given before being cut loose to solo.

[caliken]

  On 12/26/2010 at 9:37 PM, rockspyder said:

I disagree with this oversimplified statement Renzhe, my handwriting is quite hideous and often illegible many times, yet I also do formal calligraphy, and see it as an entirely different form of expression. The DISCIPLINE of formal calligraphic fonts is what I enjoy.

In my opinion, yes, go for it. I would love to see a section on calligraphy!

 

IMO A separate sub-forum is an unnecessary duplication and I disagree with rockspyder.

 

On a cursory search, the first five online dictionaries I checked, give 'calligraphy' as a definition of 'penmanship'.

 

Jamesiv1 - ".......penmanship is a form of calligraphy".

 

Browsing through the Penmanship forum could be the starting point for Calligraphers who initially thought that Calligraphy wasn’t for them. Inevitably, a separate forum would be considered elitist, and a turn-off to many who write beautifully but consider their writing to be “just handwriting”. They wouldn’t even look at a Calligraphy forum.

 

We already have a forum on 'Calligraphy' - it's called 'Penmanship'.

 

I agree with Renzhe - "Calligraphy and handwriting are the same thing to me. Therefore, no calligraphy section".

 

caliken

Edited December 26, 2010 by caliken

[caliken]

  On 12/19/2010 at 6:36 AM, beak said:

I'm interested to know whether or not the voting bar-graph at the head of this subject will decide the matter, or is it just for interest's sake? Moderators please inform. Thanks, beak.

 

With more than 43,000 members, any one of whom can start a poll at any time, the result of any vote cannot be automatically applied or the FPN would rapidly disintegrate!

 

I've always assumed that these polls were for interest's sake, only.

 

caliken

[caliken]

removed.

Edited December 26, 2010 by caliken

[rockspyder]

Thank you Caliken.

The fun of forums like these, is that everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether shared by others or not. It should also not be confused with a democracy of sorts, it is ultimately there for enjoyment and not for government.

The question was put, and I agreed, but that was only my humble opinion. There is really no need for a subforum if it will distract you and make you uncomfortable. The absence of such a subforum will not have any effect on my interest in, and enjoyment of, calligraphy (in MY understanding of the term) and other forms of penmanship (which, in my understanding, includes but is not limited to calligraphy).

I stand back, so please relax, there is really no need for a subforum then.

In fact, why not then de-categorize the entire forum? (joking)

 

As someone who writes a great deal, having to make lots of notes in the shortest possible times, my everyday writing is not aesthetically pleasing. Very often it is akin to a kind of shorthand, purely functional, nothing else.

I intentionally use calligraphy to get my writing "back on track", to enjoy my pens and the art of writing for its own sake, as opposed to using it in my profession.

Again, this is purely my opinion based on my experience. My apologies.

[beak]

  On 12/26/2010 at 10:44 PM, caliken said:

  On 12/26/2010 at 9:37 PM, rockspyder said:

.....my handwriting is quite hideous and often illegible many times, yet I also do formal calligraphy, and see it as an entirely different form of expression.

If an individual's handwriting is "hideous and often illegible", then he/she is incapable of formal calligraphy.

 

The two disciplines are inextricably linked.

 

caliken

 

I think I'd have to temper that a little; I imagine someone who has poor everyday writing may well practise calligraphy - they will perhaps do it far more slowly than they write, and the results may not be up to professional standard, but they are doing it all the same, and good for them in attempting the task in the first place. beak.

[caliken]

  On 12/26/2010 at 10:49 PM, rockspyder said:

As someone who writes a great deal, having to make lots of notes in the shortest possible times, my everyday writing is not aesthetically pleasing. Very often it is akin to a kind of shorthand, purely functional, nothing else.

I intentionally use calligraphy to get my writing "back on track", to enjoy my pens and the art of writing for its own sake, as opposed to using it in my profession.

Again, this is purely my opinion based on my experience. My apologies.

Rockspyder,

 

This fuller explanation makes a lot of sense, and certainly no apologies are necessary.

I now understand your viewpoint much more clearly and have removed my earlier post.

 

Thanks for your understanding regarding the sub-forum issue!

 

caliken

Edited December 26, 2010 by caliken

[caliken]

  On 12/26/2010 at 10:52 PM, beak said:

  On 12/26/2010 at 10:44 PM, caliken said:

  On 12/26/2010 at 9:37 PM, rockspyder said:

.....my handwriting is quite hideous and often illegible many times, yet I also do formal calligraphy, and see it as an entirely different form of expression.

If an individual's handwriting is "hideous and often illegible", then he/she is incapable of formal calligraphy.

 

The two disciplines are inextricably linked.

 

caliken

 

I think I'd have to temper that a little; I imagine someone who has poor everyday writing may well practise calligraphy - they will perhaps do it far more slowly than they write, and the results may not be up to professional standard, but they are doing it all the same, and good for them in attempting the task in the first place. beak.

I did come on a bit heavy, and you're right, of course. Everyone and anyone interested in Calligraphy should be encouraged.

[Miranda]

  On 12/26/2010 at 10:49 PM, rockspyder said:

As someone who writes a great deal, having to make lots of notes in the shortest possible times, my everyday writing is not aesthetically pleasing. Very often it is akin to a kind of shorthand, purely functional, nothing else.

I intentionally use calligraphy to get my writing "back on track", to enjoy my pens and the art of writing for its own sake, as opposed to using it in my profession.

Again, this is purely my opinion based on my experience. My apologies.

 

My turn to object!

Handwriting is not penmanship, just as handwriting is not calligraphy.

[rockspyder]

Caliken Sir, this is what forums like this are for - discussion! And this would sometimes mean that a certain degree of "heat" or "heaviness" is inevitable, as it is in any lively verbal discussion as well. Therefore, unless it is loaded with offensive cuss-words, please do not remove your posts - they are needed to follow the progression of the thread.

 

I have visited your website, and I stand in awe - I now also understand your point of view on the subject at hand, given that calligraphy/handwriting/penmanship is nothing less than a complete way of life for you, it seems. :clap1:

I have a lot to learn, and I look forward to it!

[caliken]

  On 12/27/2010 at 7:38 AM, rockspyder said:

.....please do not remove your posts - they are needed to follow the progression of the thread.

Your point is well made. Removing posts disrupts the flow of a thread and can make nonsense of the posts which follow. I would reinstate the post, but I've run out of time ....sorry!

 

Thank you for your comments re: my web site - much appreciated!

 

caliken

Edited December 27, 2010 by caliken

[pduck]

I'm just a noobie here, so take my comments with a grain of salt, but I see subtle, but distinct differences between penmanship and calligraphy. With general writing, the primary purpose is to convey a message. Penmanship aims to make that writing legible and pleasing to look at. Calligraphy I see as more of an art form. You are drawing letters more that writing words. Calligraphy also uses techniques and elements that are not found in general writing. Illumination, borders, brushes--things like that. Obviously, there is a great deal of overlap between penmanship and calligraphy, but I don't think I would ever use gold leaf when writing a letter to a friend.

 

One other thing to consider is that my Google search was not able to turn up many (or any) calligraphy forums. Perhaps the Fountain Pen Network would be a nice place for one.

[caliken]

  On 1/3/2011 at 10:43 PM, pduck said:

Calligraphy I see as more of an art form.

You are drawing letters more that writing words.

I don't think I would ever use gold leaf when writing a letter to a friend.

 

Calligraphy as I practice it, is a Craft and not an Art.

Art cannot be learned but is a natural gift. A Craft can be learned by anyone with the necessary patience and interest.

I am a Craftsman and not an Artist.

 

As a Calligrapher, I don't draw letters but write them.

 

 

I occasionally use Gold Leaf on letters and envelopes.

 

I consider myself to be a Penman/Calligrapher and, as a contributor/participant on this Forum, I feel absolutely at home here, in the Penmanship Forum.

 

caliken

Edited January 4, 2011 by caliken

[katim]

  On 1/3/2011 at 10:43 PM, pduck said:

I'm just a noobie here, so take my comments with a grain of salt, but I see subtle, but distinct differences between penmanship and calligraphy. With general writing, the primary purpose is to convey a message. Penmanship aims to make that writing legible and pleasing to look at. Calligraphy I see as more of an art form. You are drawing letters more that writing words. Calligraphy also uses techniques and elements that are not found in general writing. Illumination, borders, brushes--things like that. Obviously, there is a great deal of overlap between penmanship and calligraphy, but I don't think I would ever use gold leaf when writing a letter to a friend.

 

One other thing to consider is that my Google search was not able to turn up many (or any) calligraphy forums. Perhaps the Fountain Pen Network would be a nice place for one.

 

I can see what you're getting at here, but I think that there's quite a big difference between calligraphy - the script itself - and illumination, which takes the script to a different level of presentation, using all the tools of colours, borders, gold leaf etc. I support caliken's view that penmanship and calligraphy are actually different words for the same craft, but again, I think that many people would view penmanship as good handwriting and calligraphy as a higher level!

I'm not sure that it really matters - it's to some extent a subjective opinion anyway - but as someone who would love to be able to produce such levels of perfection as caliken, I feel I need to differentiate between my own 'penmanship' (good handwriting) and his 'calligraphy' (perfect standards of all the relevant scripts)!

 

And when it comes to separating these out into different forums, I think that would be a big mistake because, as things are, everyone who aspires to penmanship (good handwriting) benefits from the examples of calligraphy which show what can be achieved if you work at it, and which set standards to aim at. All IMHO, of course! :-)

[caliken]

  On 1/5/2011 at 9:47 PM, katim said:

And when it comes to separating these out into different forums, I think that would be a big mistake because, as things are, everyone who aspires to penmanship (good handwriting) benefits from the examples of calligraphy which show what can be achieved if you work at it, and which set standards to aim at.

+1

[rockspyder]

  On 1/3/2011 at 11:16 PM, caliken said:

I am a Craftsman and not an Artist.

 

This smacks of modesty..... :embarrassed_smile: Caliken, this time I rightfully disagree! Looking at your work on your website, including your drawings and paintings, I would call that a slight understatement...

 

After spending more time reading the Penmanship posts, I ultimately have to agree with Caliken and others who don't think a calligraphy section should be introduced. I initially thought it would be a good idea, but I now understand why it will be inappropriate - everything regarding calligraphy is already there.

 

Something that I would find interesting however, would be some more posts on the various formal styles and fonts, variations, etc. I also think members new to calligraphy will find this informative.

 

In the meantime, I am looking forward to receiving Caliken's DVD. The clips on the website demonstrate the consummate skill of a master craftsman, something to inspire amateurs like myself to keep on improving and expanding my handwriting repertoire.