Queen Food Dyes As Ink

[lws]

Inspired by dcwaites topic "Food dyes as ink", I rode down the street to the local Woolies (at about 8pm, no less) and picked up the cheapest ink I have ever bought:

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/Queen_Ink_0004.jpeg

 

 

dcwaites had blue, red, green and black; I managed to find blue, red, green and yellow. I don't know why his Woolies had black and mine didn't, but I didn't even see any shelf space for it.

 

Here are some scans of writing tests with each of the colours, written with a Parker Frontier;

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/Queen_Ink_0001.jpeg

 

 

The blue food dye is nearly a perfect match for Pelikan Turquoise, straight from the bottle.

 

The "Lime green" shows cool colour variation because I mixed yellow and green food dyes on the nib itself - as I wrote, different amounts of each colour worked their way to the tip.

 

The scan doesn't show it very well, but the mauve mix is actually very, very dark purple (not black) and the red+blue mix really is a blue-black.

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/Queen_Ink_0002.jpeg

 

 

The only difference I can see between Diamine Blaze Orange and my stuff is that the Diamine has a bit of shading. The colour is identical.

 

Here's an amusing photo:

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/Queen_Ink_0003.jpeg

 

 

They look the same!

 

 

I also picked up some other things:

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/Queen_Ink_0005.jpeg

 

 

These are flavouring essences I bought to see if I could make my ink smell pretty. The rosewater essence works pretty well, but stay away from the coffee essence (smells NOTHING like coffee.) A few drops of the rosewater essence is sufficient to scent a few mL's of ink; obviously, try this with a small amount of ink in a separate container. I didn't get any SITB, but you never know.

 

- Lewis.

Edited October 29, 2010 by lws

[FOX]

Now you can write spy messages on rice paper, and the person you send it to can eat the message after they read it.

[farseer911]

Interesting, but I think I will stick with my noodlers...

 

Thumbs up for creativity

[lws]

  On 10/29/2010 at 4:29 PM, FOX said:

Now you can write spy messages on rice paper, and the person you send it to can eat the message after they read it.

 

 

Data rates are limited by the amount of blue food colouring you can ingest before the guards get suspicious about your blue urine.

 

  On 10/29/2010 at 4:49 PM, farseer911 said:

Interesting, but I think I will stick with my noodlers...

 

Thumbs up for creativity

 

 

These aren't supposed to replace Noodler's, but they will replace Parker Quink just fine. (I can't tell the difference between red Quink and Pillarbox Red, in either appearance or writing characteristics.) Ditto the blue food colouring and Pelikan Turquoise.

 

- Lewis.

[dnb]

:bonk: And I just spent all that money on Pel Turq :bonk:

[lws]

  On 10/30/2010 at 9:57 AM, dnb said:

:bonk: And I just spent all that money on Pel Turq :bonk:

 

To be fair, "real ink" may have better shading and permanence characteristics. Next time I see her, I'm going to ask one of my friends to put those sample pages up in her window and see how they fare against the sun.

 

I think it would be highly amusing if the food dye outlasted the real ink.

 

- Lewis.

[psfred]

Well, now, I do have a limitless supply of those dyes left over from a project at work (25 gr or 50 gr of dry dye). I know the red is mostly likely Carmine Lake, but I don't remember what the blue is. Could in fact be the same dye everyone uses for washable blue (with a tiny bit of red in it to shift it from cyan to blue).

 

I will go out and dig them up in the garage shortly -- have to change the fuel filters on the diesel today anyway, so I'll be out there.

 

Most likely the food dyes will be reasonably to totally washable, and will NOT be lightfast. It will be fun to find out, though.

 

The dyes, as bought, are simple water solutions with some benzoic acid or something similar added to prevent them growing fuzz. They may or may not contain any wetting agent (detergent), so you may get flow problems with them, and they also do not have any anti-feathering agents -- as demonstrated by the noticeable feathering in the examples. This can be cured, but it will also dilute the color some.

 

An experiment in the making, eh?

 

Peter

[lws]

  On 10/30/2010 at 3:52 PM, psfred said:

Well, now, I do have a limitless supply of those dyes left over from a project at work (25 gr or 50 gr of dry dye). I know the red is mostly likely Carmine Lake, but I don't remember what the blue is. Could in fact be the same dye everyone uses for washable blue (with a tiny bit of red in it to shift it from cyan to blue).

 

I will go out and dig them up in the garage shortly -- have to change the fuel filters on the diesel today anyway, so I'll be out there.

 

Most likely the food dyes will be reasonably to totally washable, and will NOT be lightfast. It will be fun to find out, though.

 

The dyes, as bought, are simple water solutions with some benzoic acid or something similar added to prevent them growing fuzz. They may or may not contain any wetting agent (detergent), so you may get flow problems with them, and they also do not have any anti-feathering agents -- as demonstrated by the noticeable feathering in the examples. This can be cured, but it will also dilute the color some.

 

An experiment in the making, eh?

 

Peter

 

Here's ingredient lists for each of the food dyes - hopefully these will guide you as to what proportions to mix things in:

 

Yellow: WATER, FOOD COLOURS (102, 122), (2.4% TOTAL DYESTUFF), FOOD ACID (330), PRESERVATIVE (211).

Green: WATER, FOOD COLOURS (102, 133), (2.2% TOTAL DYESTUFF), FOOD ACID (330), PRESERVATIVES (202, 211).

Red: WATER, FOOD COLOUR (124), (3.3% TOTAL DYESTUFF), FOOD ACID (330), PRESERVATIVES (202, 211).

Blue: WATER, FOOD COLOUR (133), (1.8% TOTAL DYESTUFF), FOOD ACID (330), PRESERVATIVES (202,211).

Rose Pink: WATER, FOOD COLOUR (122), (1.4% TOTAL DYESTUFF), FOOD ACID (330), PRESERVATIVES (202, 211).

 

There's also a Black food dye, but I can't find it locally (dcwaites has.) I'm curious to know what food colouring it contains, because I got a very dark colour just by mixing red and blue in a 1:1 ratio.

 

I believe that food acid 330 is citric acid, and the preservatives are indeed benzoic acid or something very similar. They work well, because food dyes (in my experience) have nigh infinite shelf life.

 

Flow/feathering: I've not had any flow issues with these in my fountain pens - they start and flow just as well as any other ink. I'm also surprised that you see feathering in those scans - the food dye runs a bit wet, of course, but no wetter than Parker Quink. Still, though, what would you add as an anti-feathering agent?

 

Waterproofness: Yep, none at all. Disappears right off the page within seconds of being run under a tap (right along with Parker Quink.)

 

- Lewis.

 

 

 

[dcwaites]

The colours used are --

 

102 tartrazine - Yellow

122 carmoisine - Red to Maroon

123 amaranth - Rose

124 cochineal - Bright red

133 brilliant blue FCF - Blue

[lws]

I went out and bought some expensive paper today (110gsm "parchment" paper.) It's only Tudor brand - not exactly G Lalo or anything - but it's nicer than copy paper.

 

Anyway, here's what you can do with food dye and a dip pen:

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/Queen_Ink_0006.jpeg

 

 

Shading, eat your heart out!

 

- Lewis.

[watch_art]

that's awesome. wish I could get food dyes in jars that big. all i have around here are little 5 or 10ml bottles at the Dollar Store.

[Tweel]

  On 10/31/2010 at 2:21 AM, dcwaites said:

124 cochineal - Bright red

Mildly creepy -- you can think of Halloween when you use it (preferably in a pen with shellacked parts ).

 

-- Brian

[Enai]

I actually don't see feathering in the written samples, not even in the samples written with a dip pen, which is a nice surprise. Thanks for sharing the results of your experiment, Lewis.

[beak]

Very good. The best post I've seen on the site all week. Thanks!

Edited November 3, 2010 by beak

[lws]

  On 11/3/2010 at 12:57 PM, beak said:

Very good. The best post I've seen on the site all week. Thanks!

 

Wait until you see my next project: refilling inkjet printer cartridges with food dye, or alternately Noodler's Legal Lapis. I've heard it works, and I think it'd be pretty cool to print with Noodler's bulletproof ink.

 

I have the printer, I have the enpty cartridge, I just need to find a drill to get inside it. The printer is a Canon BJC-255SP, which is so old it only has a parallel port connection - but that just means it doesn't matter if I wreck it.

 

 

- Lewis.

[watch_art]

i'm interested in the printer ink project.

[mstone]

  On 10/31/2010 at 1:28 AM, lws said:

I believe that food acid 330 is citric acid, and the preservatives are indeed benzoic acid or something very similar. They work well, because food dyes (in my experience) have nigh infinite shelf life.

 

You don't normally dip dirty sticks in food dye before putting it back on the shelf. Or if you do, I don't want to eat at your place. :roflmho:

 

My concern about biocides is exactly because ink leads a much less sanitary life than most food ingredients.

[lws]

  On 11/3/2010 at 1:33 PM, watch_art said:

i'm interested in the printer ink project.

 

 

Success has been reported before with both food colouring and fountain pen ink (google around). The Noodler's bottle labels are apparently printed with Noodler's ink in an inkjet printer; the Noodler's label art prints are supposedly printed the same way.

 

  On 11/3/2010 at 1:49 PM, mstone said:

  On 10/31/2010 at 1:28 AM, lws said:

I believe that food acid 330 is citric acid, and the preservatives are indeed benzoic acid or something very similar. They work well, because food dyes (in my experience) have nigh infinite shelf life.

 

You don't normally dip dirty sticks in food dye before putting it back on the shelf. Or if you do, I don't want to eat at your place. :roflmho:

 

My concern about biocides is exactly because ink leads a much less sanitary life than most food ingredients.

 

 

The only way to test this is WITH SCIENCE. I propose an experiment where I expose a sample of food dye to the most unsanitary stuff we can think of, and we see if it grows anything. Do you have any suggestions for contaminants I could use?

 

- L.

 

 

[JLT]

I would suggest an experiment closely simulating what a bottle of ink is exposed to in normal use. Allowing the dye container to sit open for a day or two by an open window will expose it to mold spores and other airborne contaminants. Periodically dipping a pen into the container (once an hour, if you have that kind of time) will introduce other contaminants. After a day or two of stimulus introduction, cap the bottle and store it as you would a bottle of ink. Give it a week and observe any changes.

 

Dumping raw sewage or the equivalent into the dye won't prove much other than it spoils the dye. As my children remind me almost every day, it is quite easy to break stuff . . .

[lws]

  On 11/3/2010 at 7:54 PM, JLT said:

I would suggest an experiment closely simulating what a bottle of ink is exposed to in normal use. Allowing the dye container to sit open for a day or two by an open window will expose it to mold spores and other airborne contaminants. Periodically dipping a pen into the container (once an hour, if you have that kind of time) will introduce other contaminants. After a day or two of stimulus introduction, cap the bottle and store it as you would a bottle of ink. Give it a week and observe any changes.

 

Dumping raw sewage or the equivalent into the dye won't prove much other than it spoils the dye. As my children remind me almost every day, it is quite easy to break stuff . . .

 

Alright, you're on.

 

Here's what I've done, with pictures! Sorry about the bad quality - my actual camera's up in the lab, so I used my phone.

 

I grabbed a few glass bottles (former jam jars). They are quite wide necked, so the ink inside should be fully exposed to whatever is floating around my room.

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/mold_test/04112010(001).jpg

 

 

The bottles started off fairly clean (washed in hot soapy water, then nuked in a microwave to dry them off.) Not for long! I dirtied the bottles by sticking my big, cotton-picking fingers inside.

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/mold_test/04112010(002).jpg

 

 

Then, I filled two of them with 3mL of Queen Yellow food dye. My reasoning is that any "stuff" that grows will be more easily visible in the light yellow ink than the dark blue ink.

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/mold_test/04112010(003).jpg

 

 

To one bottle, I also added 3mL of tap water. This will tell us what happens when you dilute the ink (reducing the concentrations of the biocides.) (And yes, those are two Sheaffer school pen sections, chilling out in a container on my bathroom sink. )

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/mold_test/04112010(005).jpg

 

 

The bottles have been left in my bathroom... on top of the toilet cistern. They're likely to get splashed by water from the shower, and it's also right underneath a window, so there are exciting airborne contaminants too.

 

http://lws.nfshost.com/pix/queen_inks/mold_test/04112010(007).jpg

 

 

I'll let them live on top of the toilet until I come back home (in about a day.) Then I'll move them into my room proper, which is amazingly dusty, and expose them to that for a day as well. Finally, I'll cap them off and leave them on the windowsill for a week.

 

I'll dip a pen in them if I remember, but it wouldn't be one I was actively using (so it would be fairly clean.) I think I would get the same effect by just dropping used bits of post-it note from my desk into the jars - introduce some lovely skin flakes and other fun contaminants into the mix.

 

SCIENCE BE PRAISED!

 

--

 

In other news, the printer re-inking project is proceeding well. The ink cartridge has been successfully holed, and partially filled with a teal-coloured mixture of food colouring (3ml blue, 1ml green, 0.5ml red, if you're curious.) The teal is actually nice enough on its own that I'm thinking of inking a pen with it.

 

 

When I wake up, I'll take the re-inked cartridge up to the lab and stick it back in the printer from whence it came. It's quite an old printer, and the ink probably dried out completely (the cartridge was run dry), so I'll leave the print head chillin' out in a shallow tray of water while I sleep - hopefully that will dissolve any clogs.

 

- Lewis.

Edited November 3, 2010 by lws