Fake Uk Parker 61?

[dex]

Hi , has anyone ever heard of a very convincing fake UK Parker 61?

 

The item in question is a gold plated pen that I bought on e-bay a few months ago. I recently decided to sell it because it has a broad nib.

 

It sold to a buyer in France for £29.

 

The seller received it today and has sent the following through e=bay messaging.

 

"I received the pen today. On first sight I

realised it was not a Parker 61 as you claim and

sold it to me as. I have taken it to

Waterman/Parker here in Paris and they confirm it

is a fake. They advised me to make a police report

and draw Ebay attention to this matter. I want to

know where you stand. I do not want to put you

into trouble so I am asking you if you are willing

to give me a full refund including shipping costs

which must include the cost of sending the pen

back to you by Registered Airmail. If I do not get

a reply from you within the next 24 hours I will

lodge a formal complaint with Ebay and Paypal and

ask them to withhold payment for this item.I will

remind you that it is an offence to offer counterfeit items for sale and also against Ebay

rules."

 

I don't suppose I have any option but to give the buyer a refund , or does anyone have different advice? As you can see he wants a reply in the next 24 hours which is 12.45 tomorrow UK time.

 

I have attached a photo of the pen. I'm no expert on 61's but I've had a few and this seemed identical in quality to any other I've had , including a black one I sold on the same day.

 

The e-buy item no. is 280547537867 , I'm not sure how to add a link to it.

 

Hope someone can advise me before I reply to the buyer.

 

Regards

 

Tim

[algabatz]

Hi , has anyone ever heard of a very convincing fake UK Parker 61?

 

The item in question is a gold plated pen that I bought on e-bay a few months ago. I recently decided to sell it because it has a broad nib.

 

It sold to a buyer in France for £29.

 

The seller received it today and has sent the following through e=bay messaging.

 

"I received the pen today. On first sight I

realised it was not a Parker 61 as you claim and

sold it to me as. I have taken it to

Waterman/Parker here in Paris and they confirm it

is a fake. They advised me to make a police report

and draw Ebay attention to this matter. I want to

know where you stand. I do not want to put you

into trouble so I am asking you if you are willing

to give me a full refund including shipping costs

which must include the cost of sending the pen

back to you by Registered Airmail. If I do not get

a reply from you within the next 24 hours I will

lodge a formal complaint with Ebay and Paypal and

ask them to withhold payment for this item.I will

remind you that it is an offence to offer counterfeit items for sale and also against Ebay

rules."

 

I don't suppose I have any option but to give the buyer a refund , or does anyone have different advice? As you can see he wants a reply in the next 24 hours which is 12.45 tomorrow UK time.

 

I have attached a photo of the pen. I'm no expert on 61's but I've had a few and this seemed identical in quality to any other I've had , including a black one I sold on the same day.

 

The e-buy item no. is 280547537867 , I'm not sure how to add a link to it.

 

Hope someone can advise me before I reply to the buyer.

 

Regards

 

Tim

 

I'd apologise and explain about not knowing it was fake and then offer a full refund if he/she returns the pen and tells You the name of the person at Parker who confirmed the pen as a fake.

If he/she refuses to return it and still wants money, I would consider contacting eBay first...

 

But once eBay or Paypal gets into it, You're probably in for a mess of trouble...

 

I'd do my best to try to solve this with communication.

/Tony

[twdpens]

Give him a refund. It's worth losing a few quid to protect your 100% eBay rating, IMO.

 

From what I can tell from the photo, it looks genuine to me.

 

HTH,

 

Martin

[icardoth]

It seems you are being scammed. I'd offer a full refund for the item only, not for any shipping cost.

[OldGriz]

It seems you are being scammed. I'd offer a full refund for the item only, not for any shipping cost.

 

I agree... and if eBay or PayPal get involved and decide against you, they will only give the buyer the price of the pen NOT the postage in both directions..

I have had this happen to me a couple of times when I won a complaint...

BUT, make sure you have the pen in your hands BEFORE you give any refund... and make sure you have the name of the person at Parker who claimed it was a fake.

I would then go off on Parker when you prove it is not a fake...

[richardandtracy]

The only query I have is that the jewel may not be original or the barrel may have come apart at some time & been incorrectly re-assembled.

The cap is a Mk3, with a metal jewel, which indicates a metal barrel jewel is correct. I have a Mk3 Insignia, and the barrel jewel has the lip of the barrel curled over it. The jewel in the photo is applied externally to the barrel, so may either be a replacement or due to the jewel being screwed on from the outside to hold the barrel lining in place - i.e. incorrect re-assembly after the barrel lining to barrel glue failed (not unknown).

 

Finally.

I have never heard of a P61 fake. The P61 wasn't a hugely popular pen, and sold at a time when FP's were not making much money, so why fake it? It wouldn't have been worth faking at the time, and there are many more profitable modern pens to fake, so the likelihood of it being a fake is extremely low.

 

I suspect the scamming motive, and would suggest you are polite but suitably robust in your response.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[twdpens]

My first thought was that this sounds like a scam so I'm pleased that others have thought the same and have posted such. It is this statement that rang alarm bells:

 

I have taken it to

Waterman/Parker here in Paris and they confirm it

is a fake.

 

Where exactly did he take the pen? As far as I know, Parker does not have a facility in Paris. Its main operation is at the Waterman facility in Nantes which is a long way from Paris. Parker will have dealerships in Paris but these are not owned by Newell Rubbermaid (Parker's parent) and the staff in these are probably too young to have seen a 61.

 

Imagine yourself in the role of the buyer. Where would you go to get a pen like that authenticated? London? Parker doesn't have an office in London any more. Newhaven? I don't think there's much left there. Lichfield (the current UK HQ)? I don't think the staff there know one end of a pen from another... No, you would probably take it to a respected vintage pen dealer or collector in which case you would probably reveal the source of your information.

 

Good luck,

 

Martin

[dex]

Thank you all for your fast replies on this.

 

I've asked him for the name of the person at Parker , and why he personally immediately thought it fake.

 

He hasn't answered the first question , but his reply to the second is as follows.

 

"First it does not say 61 in big

numbers on each side of the cap near the rim. Also

it does not state gold contenti.e. goldfill or

goldplate and the thickness. The clip is attached

in a different (cheaper way) to the cap. It does

not have plastic jewels on both ends as it should.

but metal. ETC ETC its best to ask a pen expert in

the UK or put it next to an authentic pen."

 

Should a British pen have the gold content stated on it , and were the Mk.3 61 clips attached in a different way to earlier versions? Unfortunately I'm away from home this week and I haven't got a 61 or a gold British pen with me to compare.

 

Thnk very much for your help.

 

Regards

 

Tim

[Joane]

It looks authentic to me--but I'm no expert. Judging by the photo, it even appears to have some nice patina from age. I did find this address for Sanford in Paris:

 

Sanford Europe

9-11 Rue Christophe Colomb 75008 Paris, France

 

If it was taken there, would the people there be expert in vintage Parker pens? My other question is, is anyone aware of a counterfeit market in 61s? The idea to me sounds laughable.

[twdpens]

Lambrou "Fountain pens - USA and UK", p225 has a pen exactly like yours. The clip does attach in a different way to the other 61s I've had/seen in that it is not integrated with the cap tassie. Sorry, I can't comment on the specifics of the engravings but a UK made pen will surely state "rolled gold" and not "gold fill"?

 

HTH,

 

Martin

[twdpens]

sorry, double post

Edited August 23, 2010 by twdpens

[ceejaybee]

The buyer was obviously expecting an earlier version of the pen not the metal jewelled model, he's calling your bluff and using scare tactics to get you to refund him, You could offer him the refund but I would try showing evidence that it is the later version and that not all 61s are identical. I have an early pearl jewelled flighter and a later metal jewelled flighter if you want me to put them side by side and send you a photo for reference? (it might help) if he still wants to return it then I would give the refund less postage once you get the pen back.

[richardandtracy]

It is a Mk 3.

The cap on the English Mk 3's do not have '61' on them. Not all Mk2 caps from the UK had '61' on them - the earlier ones did, but I have a couple without.

Mk3 Tassies/jewels are metal.

Mk3 clips are separate from the tassie and locate in a rectangular notch in the body of the cap to prevent rotation.

The Cap only should have a very small shield with six segments reading '1 <new cell> 10 <new row> 12 <new cell> ct <new row> R <new cell>G ' to indicate 1/10 weight of 12 carat rolled gold. The barrel won't have this.

 

I fear if the buyer in France doesn't know about P61's, that should be their problem, not yours.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[red52ripple]

Hi,

 

For all the reasons stated by others above, I think it extremely unlikely that your pen is a forgery. It's just buyer remorse, plain and simple. It happens to most eBay sellers from time to time and, infuriating as it is, it's something you just have to deal with in a small percentage of sales.

 

There's no benefit to be gained from arguing over it. If you intend continuing to sell in eBay just tell the buyer to send it back and refund in full on receipt. Personally, in these cases, I pay return postage. It's angry-making but it's worth it to avoid negative feedback. I have a high volume of sales and these awkward and dishonest customers are thankfully rare enough that I can write that cost off.

 

Finally, bar the buyer from bidding on your items in future and resell your pen.

 

If it's any consolation, I'm absolutely certain that you're in the right. The pen looks sound and I'm pretty sure there has never been a market for forgeries of these pens. Being right isn't enough if you're an eBay seller faced with a dishonest buyer. Look at the longer term and write this one transaction off.

 

Regards,

Deb

[twdpens]

Richard has provided the perfect summary. I would forward this to the seller as a means of displaying your competence as a seller. However, do not use it as a substitute for a refund. If the buyer has made the wrong choice, you can confidently refund his purchase price less shipping costs as would be standard practise under normal distance selling procedures. (But get the pen back first.)

 

HTH,

 

Martin

[icardoth]

A picture of my cartridge/converter Parker 61 MK3, just to compare jewels and clip attachment. Not rolled gold cap, though:

 

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad236/icardoth/P3020010_61MarkIII.jpg

[ceejaybee]

Another photo showing the clip assembly differences between the mk2 (bottom) and mk3 (top)

 

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/ceejaybee_photo/IMG_1495.jpg

Edited August 23, 2010 by ceejaybee

[jniforat]

the buyer will probably want a refund then say that the pen got lost in the mail and you'll be double out

[dex]

Many thanks to you all for your help. I related the relevant info to the buyer who has relented somewhat , his reply is as follows.

 

"I'm also comparing it to 3 other 61s that I have.

Admittedly mine are earlier ones and have the 61

on the cap. But the shield that you mention is on

all my pens but NOT on yours. All it says on the

cap is Parker,Made in England and has the old

Parker sign of a circle and an arrow through it.

If it is normal that the shield is not present on

Mk 3 Parker 61s then I will keep the pen. It is

not my intention to cause trouble. I was really

looking forward to the pen. If after all, I have

been wrong I apologise and will keep the pen. But

please reassure me about the shield not being

there. Is it on your pictures or not? Thank you.".

 

It appears that his remaining concern is that the pen cap does not have the "rolled gold" shield that Richard described in post 13. At home I have a Mk.3 "51" which should have the same design of cap , but I'm away from home for the next week so can't compare it. I do have with me a 61/65 UK ballpoint which appears to be from the same era and this DOES have the shield. Has anyone got a UK cap from a Mk.3 "51" or 61 which does not have the shield? Or was the shield not used at some point for any reason? If I can't convince him on this I'll have to just tell him to return the pen I think.

 

Regards

 

Tim

[dex]

I've just heard from the buyer who has apologised and has kept the pen. Thanks to you all for the information that enabled me to convince him that the pen was genuine.

Regards

Tim