H. W. T. - Handwriting Without Tears

[LisaN]

The letter "C"... ummm...

 

Rabbit?

Bunny?

Hare?

 

oh... right.

Coney.

[KateGladstone]

The letter "C"... ummm...

 

Rabbit?

Bunny?

Hare?

 

oh... right.

Coney.

 

No, the folks at HWTears likely don't know that much Early Modern English. "Coney," if it means anything to them, means the first half of an East Coast USA place-name whose second half is "Island."

The reason that HWTears uses a bunny puppet to teach "c" is this:

 

Bunnies are magic because they pop out of magicians' hats.

The letter "c" is magic because you can add pieces onto it to transform it into other letters such as "a."

Therefore, teach the letter "c" and similarly shaped letters by teaching the students to perform a puppet show in which a bunny pops out of a hat and talks about the letters "c"" and "a" and so on.

 

I know what kind of hat I would associate with that level of educational reasoning.

It is not a magician's hat at all.

It is conical, white, and sometimes it has on the front a large capital letter "D" ...

 

 

 

[msacco]

Re:

... the Z&B manuals and drills. People can learn this if they really want to. ...

 

Mike S.

 

People can learn almost anything if they really want to -- the existence of the Chinese writing system is proof of that!

 

But why would anyone "really want to" learn Z-B when there is Italic?

Msacco, you plainly love Z-B -- can you please explain why I should want to learn it?

 

 

Kate, Okay I'll bite.

Listen, I'm currently learning italic right now, more calligraphic though and there is a nice rhythm but it's just not the rhythmic feeling of writing American cursive, Z&B, Palmer, Ransomerian, Spencerian or whatever you want to name it. Convince you? I do not mean to be condescending here, but I'm also an artist and designer with training in typography and such, and the beauty of the forms in cursive and especially the wonderful tapering shades in OP/Spencerian are just simply beautiful and even sexy . If you want non-calligraphic communication to be seen at it's aesthetic zenith than IMHO it's cursive.

I can state much more than that.

 

Mike S.

Edited August 9, 2010 by msacco

[KateGladstone]

I just don't happen to like it -- that doesn't make it bad, or anything (unfortunately, I know that there are proponents of Italic or other styles who say that any style not their favorite is a bad one) -- it just means that it doesn't strike me as particularly attractive.

 

Think of me as like the man who went to the opera for the first time in his life. It happened to be RING OF THE NIBELUNGS, and the parts that he didn't actually hate, well, just bored him silly. After the performance, his wife (a Wagner lover) chid him sharply for his inattentiveness:

"You don't understand, Frank," she scolded, "how much time and effort go into that type of singing and stage-craft -- how difficult it is to perform the RING cycle ... "

"Difficult?" Frank moaned, "I wish it had been IMPOSSIBLE!"

Edited August 10, 2010 by KateGladstone

[caliken]

Re:

It looks like a step worse than D'Nealian, which I thought was a co[r]ruption of Zaner Blosser [sic: should have one 's'] for no purpose other than to generate some sales commissions.

You thought wrong -- in another message I've briefly summarized the history of D'N.

When quoting from others' posts, please quote correctly.

 

You are quoting from a post written on this thread on 3rd August by RLTodd.

 

caliken

Edited August 10, 2010 by caliken

[Renzhe]

Hmmm...from the perspective of a Chinese calligraphy teacher, it doesn't require much observation to conclude that the examples are wrong. Someone (who seems to know little about English handwriting) creates a style that is unlike any of the exemplary models written by the best scribes of the past, and prescribes it upon all children of a nation. (Sound familiar?) This is misinformation. The masses must resist it if they value their culture.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Renzhe

[rogerb]

Are you sure this 'program' was not created by L Ron Hubbard?

The 'philosophy' of the 'founder' and attitude to challenge/criticism sounds remarkably 'scientological'

[KateGladstone]

Re:

 

NO, NO, NO! No more artists! Lettersforms are functional. They need to be engineered and if the form fails to meet said standards it is to be discarded and rejiggered. Artists give you comic-sans font and buildings that look like crumpled tin-foil that can't support their own weight. The very best engineers are able to successfully meld form and function like Spencerian and Apple computer.

 

 

WallyLynn, how many handwriting styles that you like were designed by engineers? I would like to see some of them.

I think that the right person to design a handwriting style would be an artist *and* an engineer. I am neither one, I admit -- but would happily learn from (or, if so honored, work with) a handwriting style designer who was both artist and engineer. Where IS such a paragon? I want to meet him or her! (and sit humbly at his/her feet to learn)

 

 

 

[KateGladstone]

Re:

Hmmm...from the perspective of a Chinese calligraphy teacher, it doesn't require much observation to conclude that the examples are wrong. Someone (who seems to know little about English handwriting) creates a style that is unlike any of the exemplary models written by the best scribes of the past, and prescribes it upon all children of a nation. (Sound familiar?) This is misinformation. The masses must resist it if they value their culture.

 

Where does it sound familiar from? Can you give other examples of this happening?

And just how CAN we get the masses to resist?

 

 

 

[KateGladstone]

Are you sure this 'program' was not created by L Ron Hubbard?

The 'philosophy' of the 'founder' and attitude to challenge/criticism sounds remarkably 'scientological'

 

Well, I've met the founder and she wasn't L. Ron Hubbard (because she wasn't a man and she wasn't dead -- she is a woman in her 60s or 70s).

I have no idea of her religious beliefs, if any -- other than that she regards her own handwriting system (that she created) with an emotion very close to worship (and she wants others to do the same).

Edited August 10, 2010 by KateGladstone

[mstone]

Re:

Hmmm...from the perspective of a Chinese calligraphy teacher, it doesn't require much observation to conclude that the examples are wrong. Someone (who seems to know little about English handwriting) creates a style that is unlike any of the exemplary models written by the best scribes of the past, and prescribes it upon all children of a nation. (Sound familiar?) This is misinformation. The masses must resist it if they value their culture.

 

Where does it sound familiar from? Can you give other examples of this happening?

And just how CAN we get the masses to resist?

Assuming the reference is to traditional versus simplified Chinese, the answer to how to resist the change is undetermined.

[rogerb]

Are you sure this 'program' was not created by L Ron Hubbard?

The 'philosophy' of the 'founder' and attitude to challenge/criticism sounds remarkably 'scientological'

 

Well, I've met the founder and she wasn't L. Ron Hubbard (because she wasn't a man and she wasn't dead -- she is a woman in her 60s or 70s).

I have no idea of her religious beliefs, if any -- other than that she regards her own handwriting system (that she created) with an emotion very close to worship (and she wants others to do the same).

It was just a bit of fun, Kate!

LRH's followers were/are 'discouraged' from questioning or challenging any of the founder's pearls of wisdom.

Edited August 11, 2010 by rogerb

[Kelvandor]

Re:

 

NO, NO, NO! No more artists! Lettersforms are functional. They need to be engineered and if the form fails to meet said standards it is to be discarded and rejiggered. Artists give you comic-sans font and buildings that look like crumpled tin-foil that can't support their own weight. The very best engineers are able to successfully meld form and function like Spencerian and Apple computer.

 

 

WallyLynn, how many handwriting styles that you like were designed by engineers? I would like to see some of them.

I think that the right person to design a handwriting style would be an artist *and* an engineer. I am neither one, I admit -- but would happily learn from (or, if so honored, work with) a handwriting style designer who was both artist and engineer. Where IS such a paragon? I want to meet him or her! (and sit humbly at his/her feet to learn)

 

 

My personal opinion...handwriting styles should be designed by writers....calligraphy is already for 'artists'. Sure, they are handwriting styles, but I think of them as way more form than function. As far as engineers, doesn't current block-style lettering or 'printing' fall into that category already?

 

Just my $.02

 

 

-Kel

[wallylynn]

Re:

 

NO, NO, NO! No more artists! Lettersforms are functional. They need to be engineered and if the form fails to meet said standards it is to be discarded and rejiggered. Artists give you comic-sans font and buildings that look like crumpled tin-foil that can't support their own weight. The very best engineers are able to successfully meld form and function like Spencerian and Apple computer.

 

 

WallyLynn, how many handwriting styles that you like were designed by engineers? I would like to see some of them.

I think that the right person to design a handwriting style would be an artist *and* an engineer. I am neither one, I admit -- but would happily learn from (or, if so honored, work with) a handwriting style designer who was both artist and engineer. Where IS such a paragon? I want to meet him or her! (and sit humbly at his/her feet to learn)

 

Hi Kate. Personally, I feel that Spencerian and Palmer were engineered, even if they didn't consider themselves engineers. They had specific goals in mind and achieved them. Their forms have rules to follow, not just "look like this" or have such and such features. D'Nealian was engineered. The little tails were deliberately put there for a reason. I like the tail on some of the letters, others not so much.

I might even classify Getty-Dubay as engineered, though I hesitate since I don't know the reasons behind their specific differences from other italics. I consider italic, in general, more of an evolution in form rather than engineered based on what I've learned on these recent thread topics.

 

And don't sell yourself short. You do handwriting repair means you identify problems and come up with solutions. That's what I think of when I think of engineer. Me, I have trouble drawing stick people for hangman.

 

Anyways, you're correct, artist and engineer. Unfortunately, the only artist and engineer I can think of at the moment has been long dead: Leonardo DaVinci. Not sure you'd want to learn his handwriting though. It's not something most people can read. But it suit his purpose and unmistakably his style.

 

As I said, it's form AND function. Handwriting is tricky because everyone wants their own style. Style is inherently artistic. But it's no good if illegible. They're all trade offs.

 

I don't want to digress too far but I have a passing interest in typography and font design. Serif vs. san-serif, monospace vs. proportional, O (oh) vs 0 (zero). I went to visit the Cooper-Hewitt National Design Museum. There was a sample display on how the font used on interstate highway signage was changing. Enlarge a few holes, adjust the spacing, etc. Very subtle, I'd not notice the differences if they weren't side by side. But they added up to signs that are easier to read. And the Helvetica history exhibit at the MoMA. The amount of thought that goes in is quite interesting.

[KateGladstone]

When Da Vinci wanted to write for other people to read -- e.g., when he sent his famous "situation wanted" letter to the Duke of Milan -- he could, and did, write a very nice (and "forwards," not mirrored) Italic.

 

I would look up a sample, but maybe next week, because in a few hours I go on vacation for a week or so.

 

Getty-Dubay's Italic *is* definitely "engineered" in the sense that some of the unusual design-choices are there for specific reasons (not always reasons I love!) -- this is what I gather from my conversations with the authors. Next week, I can tell you more about this if you list some of the specific queries you have about particular aspects of their style.

 

 

Re:

 

NO, NO, NO! No more artists! Lettersforms are functional. They need to be engineered and if the form fails to meet said standards it is to be discarded and rejiggered. Artists give you comic-sans font and buildings that look like crumpled tin-foil that can't support their own weight. The very best engineers are able to successfully meld form and function like Spencerian and Apple computer.

 

 

WallyLynn, how many handwriting styles that you like were designed by engineers? I would like to see some of them.

I think that the right person to design a handwriting style would be an artist *and* an engineer. I am neither one, I admit -- but would happily learn from (or, if so honored, work with) a handwriting style designer who was both artist and engineer. Where IS such a paragon? I want to meet him or her! (and sit humbly at his/her feet to learn)

 

Hi Kate. Personally, I feel that Spencerian and Palmer were engineered, even if they didn't consider themselves engineers. They had specific goals in mind and achieved them. Their forms have rules to follow, not just "look like this" or have such and such features. D'Nealian was engineered. The little tails were deliberately put there for a reason. I like the tail on some of the letters, others not so much.

I might even classify Getty-Dubay as engineered, though I hesitate since I don't know the reasons behind their specific differences from other italics. I consider italic, in general, more of an evolution in form rather than engineered based on what I've learned on these recent thread topics.

 

And don't sell yourself short. You do handwriting repair means you identify problems and come up with solutions. That's what I think of when I think of engineer. Me, I have trouble drawing stick people for hangman.

 

Anyways, you're correct, artist and engineer. Unfortunately, the only artist and engineer I can think of at the moment has been long dead: Leonardo DaVinci. Not sure you'd want to learn his handwriting though. It's not something most people can read. But it suit his purpose and unmistakably his style.

 

As I said, it's form AND function. Handwriting is tricky because everyone wants their own style. Style is inherently artistic. But it's no good if illegible. They're all trade offs.

 

I don't want to digress too far but I have a passing interest in typography and font design. Serif vs. san-serif, monospace vs. proportional, O (oh) vs 0 (zero). I went to visit the Cooper-Hewitt National Design Museum. There was a sample display on how the font used on interstate highway signage was changing. Enlarge a few holes, adjust the spacing, etc. Very subtle, I'd not notice the differences if they weren't side by side. But they added up to signs that are easier to read. And the Helvetica history exhibit at the MoMA. The amount of thought that goes in is quite interesting.

[The Royal Pen]

HWT is ugly and modern day D'Nealian is ugly (as it is not the same

as the original, as Kate has told us).

 

HWT is a handwriting cult. They except no other idea other than

their method. That is it. They are like drones, denouncing every other

method except for their own messod (not a method, get it?). But it also goes to preference, does it not? I like and prefer cursive, hands down no question. Kate prefers italic hands-down no question. Others prefer cursive and others prefer italic. Does it not just lead to preference?

 

But there is also custody of the eyes, which the world IS lacking.

Edited August 12, 2010 by The Royal Pen

[KateGladstone]

How Leonardo Da Vinci wrote when he did not want it seen by his eyes only --

his handwritten job-application letter to the Duke of Milan.

 

[Renzhe]

Assuming the reference is to traditional versus simplified Chinese, the answer to how to resist the change is undetermined.

That was what I was looking for, and entirely what I expected, but not what I wanted. All regions that use Chinese characters prescribe their standardized character sets (except may be South Korea), all of which have forms that are wrong. I elaborate here. As to how to resist it, one has to get there first. Either that or give them a nice big lesson on descriptive and prescriptive linguistics. You can use examples such as if I were to make up a new (inefficient, illogical, ugly, inconsistent) script and ask everyone to use it, most people would not. If I were able to force them to use it, I have too much power. If I were to suddenly increase spending on education shortly after so that the literacy rate of my dominion increases, I can cite the correlation between my script reform and the literacy rate increase and fool many people.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Renzhe

[KateGladstone]

And don't sell yourself short. You do handwriting repair means you identify problems and come up with solutions. That's what I think of when I think of engineer.

 

 

Well, then, I'll accept with thanks your conferral of that title -- though I think a *real* engineer would disapprove. Do we have any engineers here? (I mean *real* ones, with diplomas.)

 

[KateGladstone]

HWT is ugly and modern day D'Nealian is ugly (as it is not the same

as the original, as Kate has told us).

 

HWT is a handwriting cult. They except no other idea other than

their method. That is it. They are like drones, denouncing every other

method except for their own messod (not a method, get it?). But it also goes to preference, does it not? I like and prefer cursive, hands down no question. Kate prefers italic hands-down no question. Others prefer cursive and others prefer italic. Does it not just lead to preference?

 

But there is also custody of the eyes, which the world IS lacking.

 

What do you mean by "custody of the eyes"?