(teaching) Italic May Soon Be Illegal In The Usa

[dcwaites]

Is the problem the style of handwriting, or is the problem that a private company is trying to get their proprietary commercial product mandated in law?

[Guest Pjay]

KateGladstone asked

  Quote

Where can we see what the different Australian styles look like?

This link shows the mainland Eastern states: http://www.drawyourworld.com/dnealian.html

and was in my post above (you needed to click on the underscored word 'comparison')

this site shows a more comprehensive list of Aussie states

http://www.shop.popet.com.au/handwriting.html

A number of small educational supply companies appear to stock HWT, for example

http://www.chariotpress.com.au/index.php?manufacturers_id=88&main_page=index

[koa]

  On 8/2/2010 at 5:42 AM, dcwaites said:

Is the problem the style of handwriting, or is the problem that a private company is trying to get their proprietary commercial product mandated in law?

 

The "italic will be illegal" is a bit alarmist. I don't think anyone will be arrested for their handwriting, though I can think of several who should be, including myself. But this does sound like "the government is coming after my guns!" theme of some sectors of society.

 

The intrusion of private companies into education is disturbing. And of course it is not only in handwriting in the primary grades. I am deluged by all kinds of "technical solutions" for my obviously deficient teaching skills on a regular basis, often from collegues. Martha Nussbaum recently came out with a book entitled "Not for Profit: Why Democracy Needs the Humanities". I am more and more developing the opinion that there are some things that no one should be able to make money off of. First off is grandma. But a long list follows. Here, the relevant category is education. But I might add, medicine, law, national defense, death, and sex. Some might want a larger or shorter list, but these are areas covered by professions, which are by definition not the pursuit of profit.

 

My other suspicion is that education will be the next bubble, particularly higher education. Is there really any natural limit to how much anyone can be expected to pay for a degree? Education is priceless, but that does not mean that vendors will be able to squeeze an infinite revenue stream from it. Handwriting without tears? How about handwriting without blood, from a turnip? Ouch!

[Tweel]

  Quote

(see model-samples at http://www.hwtears.com/files/HWT_Alphabet.pdf )

Regarding the cursive alphabet, I can't believe that the lowercase "r" and "s" are supposed to be parts of the same hand! I don't know what to say about the "x". Overall, it looks like amateur computer font design.

 

-- Brian

[Guest Pjay]

I agree with you Tweel - of the many scripts I've seen intended for school children, this would have to be the worst...

*The upper case G looks more like a T in many styles

*The wide entries for the lower case n and m are most peculiar

*The lower case r looks like a small upper case M

 

in all,

[sumgaikid]

  On 8/2/2010 at 4:49 AM, KateGladstone said:

Where can we see what the different Australian styles look like?

 

Also, what company is distributing HWTears in Australia?

I ask this because in the USA the HWTears company does its own distribution, but I know that in the UK the HWTears program is distributed by the large educational conglomerate Pearson.

 

This amuses me because Pearson UK prints or distributes brochures saying that the research proves that HWTears is the best program for all children, but Pearson USA's brochures say that the research proves that another, very different program is the best for all children -- naturally, the program recommended in the Pearson USA brochures is the one that Pearson USA owns/distributed (that they acquired by buying up the USA company that owns the rights) -- a program called D'Nealian.

(You can see samples of D'N at http://www.dnealian.com -- all I will say about it is that, in 10 years of directing the World Handwriting Contest ... and 8 previous years of directing its predecessor, the Annual American Handwriting Contest ... I have never yet seen any Contest judge pick either a D'N-trained writer's sample or a[n] HWTears-trained writer's sample as deserving an award. This includes those judges who themselves favored one or the other program.)

 

So I wonder what Pearson may have to say if I can reach their editor/CEO for Pearson USA and show him that one of his company's biggest-selling products (D'N) could be outlawed in the USA -- at the request of the CEO of a program being distributed by another arm of the worldwide Pearson company ...

 

I actually asked the Pearson people (UK and USA) once before, about why their company was telling Americans that one program was the best, but telling UK people that another and very different program was the best. They never answered ... but maybe this recent news will make it more important to answer. (No company wants to see a lucrative product outlawed -- so maybe Pearson USA can use some fraction of its millions to stop their competitor's lobbying ... which will be very interesting, given that Pearson UK distributes the competitor's program ... )

 

 

 

Is Pearson US also known as NCS Pearson--the same company that's involved in student testing? If it is,they are well-known

for constantly messing up student testing.

 

 

John

[KateGladstone]

  On 8/2/2010 at 9:23 AM, sumgaikid said:

Is Pearson US also known as NCS Pearson--the same company that's involved in student testing? If it is,they are well-known

for constantly messing up student testing.

 

 

John

 

 

Yes, NCS Pearson is part of Pearson USA. So it's a good thing that NCS Pearson does not (as far as I know) offer tests of handwriting. (Ironically, Pearson UK offers at least one test of student handwriting -- a USA-published handwriting speed test called "Detailed Assessment of Speed of Handwriting [DASH]," created by some non-Pearson company which publishes that test as its only product.

The DASH test, rather oddly is mostly a test of the students' speed on non-handwriting fine-motor tasks.

The test-makers assume that this is a good test of handwriting speed because fine-motor problems affect handwriting speed.

Since a fair number of my students -- and I myself -- developed high speed for legible handwriting despite still having lots of innate fine-motor problems, I have to assume that we would all fail their test no matter how fast we write legibly by hand. Actually learning something, I guess, counts for far less with these people than inborn aptitudes/problems -- as if a card game decided the winner based on what hand of cards s/he had been dealt, rather than on how well s/he played those cards ... )

 

 

[KateGladstone]

Would anyone be interesting in drafting a petition (which I could then edit, and we could decide where to post/send) about -- against -- the HWTears "Handwriting Standards" lobby-groups attempted takeover of USA handwriting instruction? We could get signatures here and elsewhere, because I have shared the story with the editor of a popular education-news site here, who has posted something, and I am getting a lot of inquiries from teachers/parents about whether there is a petition to sign.

So I think we should start a petition online or elsewhere, get some number of signatures (how many would be a good target to aim for?), and then send it to the head of the US Department of Education, one Arne Duncan (one of my friends is getting his direct e-mail address for me).

Maybe the thing would have more clout if we could put an organization behind it. I would like anyone interested in this matter (of raising public awareness about handwriting, and preventing takeover of the field by poor handwriting methods when there are so many good methods that would be criminalized by a takeover) to join me in founding a "grass-roots" public awareness group to be called "CATCH -- Create And Teach Legible Handwriting." This group would be the identified author of the petition, and would then go on to other necessary projects in handwriting improvement/awareness/activism, depending on the interests and commitment of the members. If you are interested in helping me with CATCH -- I am at present the founder and sole member -- please send me a personal message or e-mail (handwritingrepair@gmail.com) with ""CATCH -- Create And Teach Legible Handwriting" somewhere in the message title or body. Note that I am also trying to see if other interested people (those outside FPN who are contacting me on this matter) would like to join CATCH and/or help with writing the petition -- I want the petition to combine the best ideas from all sources.

[KateGladstone]

Thanks to Lisa N. for her writing. It immensely excels any that I have seen from a survivor (or teacher) of HWTears -- even though the teachers do not even use HWTears style anyway unless they are "on duty" teaching it.

A fair number of their "certified handwriting specialists," in fact, write illegibly -- by their own admission -- because the course taken to gain the "certification" can be passed without ever writing a word, let alone having it evaluated for legibility.

Would you fly a plane piloted by someone whose piloting instructor had never gotten a plane off the ground?

[KateGladstone]

  On 8/2/2010 at 5:42 AM, dcwaites said:

Is the problem the style of handwriting, or is the problem that a private company is trying to get their proprietary commercial product mandated in law?

 

 

Both -- and the problems interrelate: a company with a poor style will be more than usually eager to have all its competitors outlawed.

 

Though I use and advocate Italic, I would not join a lobby (or advocate a law) to forbid all other styles -- though I admit that, if I learned that a law to permit only one style was to be passed regardless of any efforts against it, I would do my best to have the lawmakers at least select for that purpose the style that I think best! (But when they did so, if they chose Italic, I hope I would immediately petition to have that law overturned and free choice returned: because a writing style must stand or fall on its merits, not because of people making other styles illegal.)

Such a thing has actually happened: in 1972, Sweden mandated Italic for all schools -- and this led to protests, not against the style itself (which was generally conceived to be good) but against the use of government power to impose it as the sole permissible style. So the law was revoked a few years later, with each style left to rise or fall on its own merits: almost three decades later, 80% of Swedish schools teach Italic because of the experience of teachers who could freely consider it against alternatives. I believe that use of Italic is growing (though much more slowly) in the USA as well.

[sumgaikid]

  On 8/2/2010 at 4:22 PM, KateGladstone said:

  On 8/2/2010 at 9:23 AM, sumgaikid said:

Is Pearson US also known as NCS Pearson--the same company that's involved in student testing? If it is,they are well-known

for constantly messing up student testing.

 

 

John

 

 

Yes, NCS Pearson is part of Pearson USA. So it's a good thing that NCS Pearson does not (as far as I know) offer tests of handwriting. (Ironically, Pearson UK offers at least one test of student handwriting -- a USA-published handwriting speed test called "Detailed Assessment of Speed of Handwriting [DASH]," created by some non-Pearson company which publishes that test as its only product.

The DASH test, rather oddly is mostly a test of the students' speed on non-handwriting fine-motor tasks.

The test-makers assume that this is a good test of handwriting speed because fine-motor problems affect handwriting speed.

Since a fair number of my students -- and I myself -- developed high speed for legible handwriting despite still having lots of innate fine-motor problems, I have to assume that we would all fail their test no matter how fast we write legibly by hand. Actually learning something, I guess, counts for far less with these people than inborn aptitudes/problems -- as if a card game decided the winner based on what hand of cards s/he had been dealt, rather than on how well s/he played those cards ... )

 

 

 

That's what I figured. NCS Pearson is well-known in the educational services community for botching up standardized

testing for students(They won the bid for the FCAT here in Florida this year and have already botched it up by,I believe,

losing some of the FCAT materials turned in by some students--it made the local newspapers several months ago.). Seems

to me that this handwriting ploy by Pearson USA is just another way to make money without any care for properly teaching

students how to write cursively.

 

 

John

Edited August 2, 2010 by sumgaikid

[mstone]

  On 8/2/2010 at 6:29 AM, koa said:

...medicine, law, national defense, death, and sex. Some might want a larger or shorter list, but these are areas covered by professions, which are by definition not the pursuit of profit.

The trade association for the world's oldest profession would probably disagree...

[opus7600]

I know it's offtopic, but I've got to complain that all these un-terminated font modification tags are making this thread itself an eyesore.

 

If you quote somebody who uses font modification tags and you delete the end of their post, try to leave in the font modification terminator tags so that the font modifications don't continue down the page. They'll look something like "[/i]".

 

Okay, you guys can go back to ranting now.

[777]

I'll I can say is ANOTHER POINT FOR HOMESCHOOL! I get to use any handwriting I want to!

[Maruk]

I'm thankful for IAMPETH - so much wonderful information and so little time. If I ever find myself teaching, that's the reference I'll use (There are other good ones out there, but IAMPETH has a very nice library).

 

Also, I feel pain in my hands just looking at the HWT lettering - I'm not going to try and write it to see just how right I am.

[LisaN]

Blush:

I must point out that for a period of seriously 32 years, ending about three weeks ago, I had not written a single line of cursive, nor have I practiced much this month.

[KateGladstone]

  On 8/3/2010 at 4:56 PM, 777 said:

I'll I can say is ANOTHER POINT FOR HOMESCHOOL! I get to use any handwriting I want to!

 

One homeschooler points out here -- http://spunkyhomeschool.blogspot.com --

"Even if homeschoolers are exempt from the national standards, we will still be affected by the standards. As I previously established, employment and training opportunities will be based on a child's performance on the standardized tests which are based on curriculum and 'soft skills.' Those that are without the credentialed diploma will be at a strategic disadvantage in college and career placement."

 

 

 

[777]

  On 8/3/2010 at 10:00 PM, KateGladstone said:

  On 8/3/2010 at 4:56 PM, 777 said:

I'll I can say is ANOTHER POINT FOR HOMESCHOOL! I get to use any handwriting I want to!

 

One homeschooler points out here -- [/url] --

"Even if homeschoolers are exempt from the national standards, we will still be affected by the standards. As I previously established, employment and training opportunities will be based on a child's performance on the standardized tests which are based on curriculum and 'soft skills.' Those that are without the credentialed diploma will be at a strategic disadvantage in college and career placement."

 

 

 

 

Well... In that case I'll just have to be self employed

 

 

 

[KateGladstone]

  On 8/1/2010 at 2:14 PM, Vargouille said:

While learning one distinct style of cursive is all fine and dandy within people who know the script, and looks nice because it is distinctive, it would probably become complete gibberish to most people who do not know that form of cursive (ie suetterlin).

Then, you would need to know a form of print that is as close as possible to the accepted Roman form. That is my opinion, and you are welcome to disagree.

 

That's an important reason to pick the "one distinct style of cursive" that isn't "gibberish to most people who do not know that form" and that also works as "a form of print that is as close as possible to the accepted Roman form."

 

And that form of cursive, of course, is the Italic.

[donwinn]

  On 8/2/2010 at 6:29 AM, koa said:

  On 8/2/2010 at 5:42 AM, dcwaites said:

Is the problem the style of handwriting, or is the problem that a private company is trying to get their proprietary commercial product mandated in law?

 

The "italic will be illegal" is a bit alarmist. I don't think anyone will be arrested for their handwriting, though I can think of several who should be, including myself. But this does sound like "the government is coming after my guns!" theme of some sectors of society.

 

The intrusion of private companies into education is disturbing. And of course it is not only in handwriting in the primary grades. I am deluged by all kinds of "technical solutions" for my obviously deficient teaching skills on a regular basis, often from collegues. Martha Nussbaum recently came out with a book entitled "Not for Profit: Why Democracy Needs the Humanities". I am more and more developing the opinion that there are some things that no one should be able to make money off of. First off is grandma. But a long list follows. Here, the relevant category is education. But I might add, medicine, law, national defense, death, and sex. Some might want a larger or shorter list, but these are areas covered by professions, which are by definition not the pursuit of profit.

 

My other suspicion is that education will be the next bubble, particularly higher education. Is there really any natural limit to how much anyone can be expected to pay for a degree? Education is priceless, but that does not mean that vendors will be able to squeeze an infinite revenue stream from it. Handwriting without tears? How about handwriting without blood, from a turnip? Ouch!

 

Can't figure out how to isolate, so I will reply all at the end. Regarding private companies' intrusion into education, unless and until the schools themselves, or worse, a government which thinks it can spend itself out of debt, publishes its own self-designed curriculum, private companies will always "intrude".

 

If people are now allowed to make money out of activity, the activity will occur at a minimum. Even China has seen that, and now allows people to make money from their labors. Crop yield has risen exponentially since then. There are not enough people who are altruistic enough AND independently wealthy enough to develop and publish curriculum for schools, at zero profit.

 

If zero profit had been allowed for medicine over the past 50 years, there would have been zero advances in medicine, and one of our economic problems would not exist -- aging boomers. The advances in medicine, including heart transplants, artificial hearts, lifesaving medications, have all been funded by profits. Law, however, would be much simpler, since lawyers would not be graduates of law school (costs too much) and judges would also not be educated in law. National defense -- we would be back to bow and arrow and spear fairly quickly, as the defense contractors (whose profits by the way, are audited by the Federal government, and profits in excess of the legal percentage are recovered from the contractor) would be out of business, so no more airplanes, vehicles, body armor, ammunition (unless one uses hunting rifles, which is what the militia in the American War for Independence did) artillery, and any other weapon which cannot be made by the warrior, would be gone fairly quickly.

 

In the best of all possible worlds, altruism and generosity would rule; however, in that best of all possible worlds, there would be no human beings, because, human nature being what it is, Lord of the Flies would become the societal norm if there were human beings and no government.

 

Donnie