The Tripod (or Triangular) Pen Hold

[bigstick]

  On 9/11/2010 at 1:57 PM, pe2dave said:

  On 9/11/2010 at 1:01 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

With some delay, here you are, side-by-side with my "normal" grip on a 51-- as you can see, it's just a matter of a little rotation:

 

 

I can follow the logic... and I do get results? I can't 'twist' it as far towards

the knuckle as you have it in the photo? Makes the nib too 'steep', but moving

it in that direction I really do find a help. Thanks

 

Dave

 

Nib too steep is curable as well: move your fingers UP the pen a cm or so. Everything still works the same, but the nib angle is reduced.

[pe2dave]

  On 9/11/2010 at 2:36 PM, bigstick said:

 

Nib too steep is curable as well: move your fingers UP the pen a cm or so. Everything still works the same, but the nib angle is reduced.

 

Mmm. Works with a pencil.... 1.1 italic, OK... pen position wrt first finger not 'right'?

either wants to lie along the first finger[feels quite unnatural!] or revert to 'as was'

which is thumb side of the joint? 1.5 italic smooth (pleasantly surprised).

Minor issue of my writing looking like a ten year olds now!!!

Different muscles in use?

 

Dave

[bigstick]

a day's use will render it natural.

[KateGladstone]

  On 9/8/2010 at 11:35 PM, bigstick said:

Caliken is showing the hold taught to me in grade school in the early sixties, and which I stubbornly continue to use, avoiding all others.....vade retro, satanus!

 

 

That's "Satanas" --the demon Tytyvyllus rejoices at your error.

;-)

 

(NOTE: I had to use the less-seen spelling with "y"s because the usual spelling, with "i"s, is identical with the name of a banned member ... and would therefore show up as the word "Banned" in any FPN posting)

Edited September 11, 2010 by KateGladstone

[ag273n]

whoa!, the first time i tried it, and it felt like i was writing with someone else's hand.. hehe :roflmho:

i'll practice this..

nice post

[pamsc]

This is a surprise to me. I hold my pen low, along my thumb, very much on the thumb side of the webbing between thumb and forefinger. And I always thought that was how you held a fountain pen, that holding the pen high was for ballpoints. I used rollerballs for many years but I always avoided ballpoints because most ballpoints won't write when held low.

[pe2dave]

  On 9/20/2010 at 12:57 PM, pamsc said:

This is a surprise to me. I hold my pen low, along my thumb, very much on the thumb side of the webbing between thumb and forefinger. And I always thought that was how you held a fountain pen, that holding the pen high was for ballpoints. I used rollerballs for many years but I always avoided ballpoints because most ballpoints won't write when held low.

 

I am... was the same. I.e. that's my natural grip? I've spent the last week or so trying

to shift the barrel of the pen up towards the knuckle on my index finger. I simply

can't work with it beyond that, I revert to spider writing!

Another one from a 1905 book describes this with the ring and small finger 'tucked away'

up against the palm? This puts the outer edge of the little finger against the paper, which (for me) improves things?

Persevere some more? I guess I'll keep on for a while longer. Been long enough

with the former grip!

 

Dave

[dnb]

I guess I'm lucky. I must have too much flesh in the webbing for the pen to rest along the thumb.

I do employ the tuck I believe you are describing. Basically the pinky and ring fingers close in toward the palm. The side of the pinky and side of the hand then have formed a kind of triangle that rests on and floats across the paper.

I find there is about half an inch of webbing that different pens use, meaning the angle of the pen changes slightly based on the architecture of the pen.

[Darteres]

I read this topic with great interest and decided to try this hold for myself. My results are posted below. This is a bit of hesitancy, but I'm quite happy with my first result. I'm going to give it a another go when I get home. Please feel free to critique.

http://brianblalock.smugmug.com/Other/Writing/CCF0922201000000/1018340239_By5kn-O.jpg

[WendyNC]

  On 9/11/2010 at 1:01 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

  On 9/9/2010 at 12:18 AM, WendyNC said:

  On 9/8/2010 at 10:57 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

  On 8/1/2010 at 1:07 PM, WendyNC said:

This is basically the way I hold a pen and it really is good for all day, every day. The only place it doesn't work for me is with the VP--darned clip is in the way.

 

I just took a closer look at what I do and see that the pen is rotated slightly toward me (right handed) but it's still very close. I may continue to tweak.

 

I've got my VP out today, and this is my default hold, so reading this makes me stop and attend to how I'm writing.

{pauses. considers.}

Well, it's pretty much as Caliken shows us in the initial post, perhaps slightly rotated, so that the index finger rests in the "waist" of the clip but the thumb is well clear of it. Taking up my "51" from its desk mount, I see that I do grab it with the index finger more atop, exactly as shown above, but the modification is trifling. Perhaps it's a size-of-hand thing, though, that allows me this freedom.

 

I'm trying it but not quite getting it. Any chance you'd be able to post a photo showing your VP hold? Thanks!

 

With some delay, here you are, side-by-side with my "normal" grip on a 51-- as you can see, it's just a matter of a little rotation:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/takematsu/Tripods.jpg

 

Thanks so much for these pictures. They were a real help to me this afternoon. In fact, as I was working with the photos, my VP and my grip, I was writing about my "discoveries" regarding my own physiology. Perhaps it's just as well that post was lost in a poof of pixels. Anyway, the VP is never going to be really comfortable for me, but at least now I know why.

[WendyNC]

  On 9/22/2010 at 8:44 PM, Darteres said:

I read this topic with great interest and decided to try this hold for myself. My results are posted below. This is a bit of hesitancy, but I'm quite happy with my first result. I'm going to give it a another go when I get home. Please feel free to critique.

http://brianblalock.smugmug.com/Other/Writing/CCF0922201000000/1018340239_By5kn-O.jpg

 

Darteres, I've recently been working on teaching myself italic. I think you're a bit ahead of me. Nicely done.

[Darteres]

  On 9/23/2010 at 12:59 AM, WendyNC said:

 

 

Darteres, I've recently been working on teaching myself italic. I think you're a bit ahead of me. Nicely done.

 

Thank you! I've been writing with italic for a while, but this was the first time trying this pen hold.

 

I did some more practice last night. Copied a poem that I sent to my son today. He's 6 and in the second grade and I thought it was a fitting poem. I used Aurora Black in a Rotring Art Pen with a 1.1 mm nib that's been tweaked a bit. Paper was Rhodia notebook paper. Much easier with that pen, but it could have just been in my head. Not meant to be formal calligraphy, just a nice (working progress!) handwriting. Also tried a different "g", but I slipped up once.

 

http://brianblalock.smugmug.com/Other/Writing/CCF0923201000000/1019252027_hRWkc-O.jpg

[glindauer]

  On 9/5/2010 at 8:57 PM, caliken said:

  On 9/4/2010 at 12:17 PM, gaevin said:

Hi Caliken, what parts of your hand are touching the paper?

 

In different sources, the last two fingers and the knuckle rest on the paper, leaving a space between the pinky and the knuckle not touching the paper. Can you please elaborate on this aspect.

 

Also, another question regarding the tripod grip. I find that I'm applying too much pressure when I am holding the pen, although the pressure between the pen and the paper is good (very minimal). Whenever I try to release the pressure between the pen and my hand, my handwriting starts to deteriorate because I shake a little bit. It feels that using minimal pressure holding the pen and minimal pressure pressing the tip of the pen onto the paper is extremely hard to master! Any tips and tricks, or must I be patient since mastering this takes time and practice?

 

Thanks!

I see that my pictures may be misleading as I was concentrating on the tripod hold with my hand stationary. In actual writing, my first three fingers are free of the paper in the tripod hold and the other two fingers are brushing the surface of the paper as a guide in parallel motion to the tripod.

 

I find that the pen held in this tripod grip and with the pen resting on the large knuckle, very easy to control with just the lightest touch letting the nib do the work.

This is the huge advantage over a ball point pen as it requires no effort.

 

caliken

 

Caliken,

 

Thank you for the pictures (worth a thousand words) and followup.

 

I, too, have a question. In Spencerian cursive on the Iampeth site, the positioning seems to be the tripod, except that the description states that the nails of the last two fingers brush the page, whereas it looks as if your finger edges or knuckles do. I don't know if this is an appropriate technique for me (as a beginner), but it does feel more comfortable for me to use my knuckles-- not my nails. I was worried that if I do this, I am practicing bad form that will hinder me later. Is it OK for me to use my finger edges-- NOT use my nails-- on those last to fingers?

 

Greg

[caliken]

  On 9/29/2010 at 8:30 PM, glindauer said:

I, too, have a question. In Spencerian cursive on the Iampeth site, the positioning seems to be the tripod, except that the description states that the nails of the last two fingers brush the page, whereas it looks as if your finger edges or knuckles do. I don't know if this is an appropriate technique for me (as a beginner), but it does feel more comfortable for me to use my knuckles-- not my nails. I was worried that if I do this, I am practicing bad form that will hinder me later. Is it OK for me to use my finger edges-- NOT use my nails-- on those last to fingers?

Greg

You're right - my finger edges or knuckles do brush the surface most of the time and not just my nails. I don't think that this matters too much as long as the whole weight of the hand isn't resting on the last two fingers all of the time, as this affects fluency of movement.

 

Having said that, I do use finger movement only, for very small writing as I find that I have better control that way. As lettering gets larger, I use finger/arm movement more and more, on a sliding scale with very large lettering produced with arm movement, only.

 

For me, the choice of finger or muscular movement is not a conscious one, but relies largely on the size of the lettering. This applies to all styles of lettering, not just Spencerian.

 

I am not saying that this is correct practice, but it works for me

 

As ever, the most important point is to avoid tension by gripping the pen too tightly.

 

caliken

Edited September 29, 2010 by caliken

[rollerboy]

  On 9/8/2010 at 8:01 AM, Firochromis said:

 

BTW,

 

  On 9/5/2010 at 1:25 PM, Achim said:

  On 9/4/2010 at 2:02 PM, rollerboy said:

Is that referring to the left and right tines resting on the paper like this:

 

 

   R
L

 

 

Yes, it is. Don't try to coerce the nib into a horizontal position related to the paper. That would hurt your wrist joint sooner or later. The pen grip that feels most natural and that doesn't need any effort is usually the right one (with the exception of some calligraphic scripts that need manipulation of the nib in this regard).

 

I'm holding the pen horizantal comfortably, this is another conflict for me. :blink:

 

I think it's fine that the tines are horizontal given the other aspects of your grip if I understand your grip correctly.

 

I don't think it's correct to say that having the nib tines at 45 degrees to the baseline is "correct" or that parallel to the baseline is "correct". What's important is that both tines be in equal, symmetrical contact with the paper. If you hold the pen so that the back end of the barrel is pointing to your right by x degrees, then nib tines on paper at x degrees is correct. If the back end of the pen points to your right by 45 degrees, then nib tines on paper at 45 degrees is correct. If the pen points straight back towards you (call this 0 degrees) then nib tines on paper at 0 degrees (horizontal) is correct.

 

Of course toss in longitudinal rotation of the pen, and pronation of the forearm and my brain hurts, but the point is 45 degrees is only "correct" if other aspects of the grip make it correct.

[GooseDeluxe]

Does using this method of holding the pen ever give anyone a callus-y bump on their fingers? I guess probably the middle one near the first joint from the finger tip. I remember in elementary school some of my classmates had these bumps on their fingers and I thought it might have something to do with the way they held their pens/pencils.

[Pippin60]

  On 9/8/2010 at 11:35 PM, bigstick said:

Caliken is showing the hold taught to me in grade school in the early sixties, and which I stubbornly continue to use, avoiding all others.....vade retro, satanus!

 

 

Same here the nun's taught me well and the ruler marks are long gone :embarrassed_smile:. I find the Lamy Safari grip very comfortable and as for the VP clip it's no problem at all, as it kind of aligns the nib for me.

[Ernst Bitterman]

That's a Callus of Distinction! It's how we may know each other from those who only communicate by text-messaging.

[WendyNC]

  On 9/30/2010 at 10:56 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

That's a Callus of Distinction! It's how we may know each other from those who only communicate by text-messaging.

 

They wear their calluses on their thumbs!

[KateGladstone]

  On 9/30/2010 at 2:40 AM, Pippin60 said:

  On 9/8/2010 at 11:35 PM, bigstick said:

Caliken is showing the hold taught to me in grade school in the early sixties, and which I stubbornly continue to use, avoiding all others.....vade retro, satanus!

 

 

Same here the nun's taught me well and the ruler marks are long gone :embarrassed_smile:. I find the Lamy Safari grip very comfortable and as for the VP clip it's no problem at all, as it kind of aligns the nib for me.

 

 

The nuns -- whom I presume to know some Latin -- would have found fault with "satanus" on the grounds of spelling and capitalization. (Try "Satanas" -- and exorcise (bleep)!)