14K VS 14C

[hari317]

I feel I have to post the pen just to see your thoughts- a green striated 146 thought to be 1950 HERE

 

It is a stunning pen but I was unsure about the nib, which is exactly why I started this topic.

 

I am unsure about the tipping, to me, it looks like a well executed re-tipping job, the grinding on the nib is also very very crisp. It looks unlike the tipping on the pens of this era, but i confess i have only seen and studied online photos, since pens of this era are beyond my range of ownership.

 

Regards,

Hari

[shrinknib]

Thank you Barry and hari

It may remain a mystery I fear.

I think this is too much money to be spending on the possibility of a non original nib.'

Then if one has to sell it in the future and explain it to someone else.....'

 

Any recommendations for links about where I amy locate this information?

Should I contact Montblanc directly? (will they even know?)

 

thanks again, I am pleased that this has not been easily resolved, as I felt I may have been asking a silly question to the group

[penparadise]

The 14ct nibs are generally more flexier than their 14kt counterparts

Sorry, but I can't confirm this. The imprint "c" or "k" has nothing to do with the flexibility of a nib which is produced within the same periode. I would have said the same as Max.

 

 

I feel I have to post the pen just to see your thoughts- a green striated 146 thought to be 1950 HERE

 

It is a stunning pen but I was unsure about the nib, which is exactly why I started this topic.

All of my green straited Montblancs I have (11 right now) have the "14 c" imprint. I'm not sure that these pens have been delivered with "14 k" nibs.

But away from the nib I wouldn't say it's a "stunning pen". As I can see from the pictures the pen is quite discolored to brown which makes me doubt about the price. :hmm1: I have paid far less than the asking price for my non discolored pens. But OK, it was a few years ago.

 

Axel

[Barry Gabay]

Hari's observations about the cleanliness & crispness of the nib are right on target. Axel also knows much more about the celluloid generation than many other people. His opinion should carry considerable weight. Perhaps it is a new nib on an older pen.

 

Can a 146 expert who has both a celluloid 146 and a plastic model with bi-color nib show the two side by side? My recollection is that for non-celluloid 146 pens, the 14C nibs were monochromatic all yellow gold; whereas the later 14K nibs were bi-color. Also, is there scrolled engraving along the flanks of all post-celluloid bi-color 146 nibs? The flanked engraving was not present on the 146 all yellow gold 14C nibs of non-celluloid vintage. The 1950s celluloid 14C bi-color nibs also lacked the engraved scrolls along their flanks.

[sumgaikid]

Taking a look at the pen in question(and also from what I've read,the seller is legit),I would have to

think that the nib isn't original to the pen. One doesn't see a snowflake that is that discoloured and

see a nib that seems to have weathered the ravages of use nicely over 50+ years of use. Also,there

was one thing about the nib that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread--the upturned look of

the nib is typical of later nibs. I would think that the typical 50's MB nib(assuming flexible)would be

turned down in the other direction.

 

 

 

John

[hari317]

Hari's observations about the cleanliness & crispness of the nib are right on target. Axel also knows much more about the celluloid generation than many other people. His opinion should carry considerable weight. Perhaps it is a new nib on an older pen.

 

Here is the picture from the auction:

 

http://www.cwpens.com/images/G155b.JPG

 

I was talking about the tipping and it does look like a non MB job to me. The nib body looks like the 14C nib on my 144 from the same era which I just took out to compare, but there is a major diffrence, the vertex of the plat plated area which falls on the nib slit is very sharp on the 144 and other 50's 146s that I have seen, the vertex of the nib above is much rounded, similar to that found in the 14K monotone 146 nibs. However the plated area in the nib above does have the darkened look of an worn old nib to my eyes. so if this nib is a recreation, it is a very clever one. How difficult is it to take a monotone 146 nib and plate the central area?

 

Also,there

was one thing about the nib that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread--the upturned look of

the nib is typical of later nibs. I would think that the typical 50's MB nib(assuming flexible)would be

turned down in the other direction.

 

John, yes, but in my very limited experience the upturn on this nib is very unlike that found on the regular 70's 80's MB nibs in the diffrence in the way the tip is attached, the flat wedge at the top edge of the tipping is a dead give away in my view that the nib was ground to make upside down writing possible.

 

Best,

Hari

[Multiechelon]

Hi all,

 

As a quick comment, this is the same seller that recently sold a pen claiming it was a stock MB KBBB nib when in fact it was a nib modified by Greg Minuskin. (it goes without saying that nibs modified by Greg Minuskin are fantastic and wonderful in their own right, but in my opinion the seller did not disclose the condition properly). Details of that auction are at: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/137161-mb-149-kugel-bbb-nib-on-ebay/

 

This seller has fantastic feedback and surely has an amazing set of pens to sell, but I personally choose not to buy from sellers like this. I am just not knowledgeable enough to bid appropriately on this seller's listings.

 

Sean

[sumgaikid]

Hari's observations about the cleanliness & crispness of the nib are right on target. Axel also knows much more about the celluloid generation than many other people. His opinion should carry considerable weight. Perhaps it is a new nib on an older pen.

 

Here is the picture from the auction:

 

http://www.cwpens.com/images/G155b.JPG

 

I was talking about the tipping and it does look like a non MB job to me. The nib body looks like the 14C nib on my 144 from the same era which I just took out to compare, but there is a major diffrence, the vertex of the plat plated area which falls on the nib slit is very sharp on the 144 and other 50's 146s that I have seen, the vertex of the nib above is much rounded, similar to that found in the 14K monotone 146 nibs. However the plated area in the nib above does have the darkened look of an worn old nib to my eyes. so if this nib is a recreation, it is a very clever one. How difficult is it to take a monotone 146 nib and plate the central area?

 

Also,there

was one thing about the nib that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread--the upturned look of

the nib is typical of later nibs. I would think that the typical 50's MB nib(assuming flexible)would be

turned down in the other direction.

 

John, yes, but in my very limited experience the upturn on this nib is very unlike that found on the regular 70's 80's MB nibs in the diffrence in the way the tip is attached, the flat wedge at the top edge of the tipping is a dead give away in my view that the nib was ground to make upside down writing possible.

 

Best,

Hari

 

I can agree with everything you say--I think that your assessment of the nib is correct. I also think

(and I forgot to mention this)that his price reflects the present popularity of striated MB's--"If you

really want it and have to have it,you'll jump on this price."

 

 

John

[niksch]

The nib looks to me as if it were a 1970s/1980s modern mono-color nib with the interior "silvered" to appear as a vintage nib. I offer this photo of the nib of an 80s 146 as a comparison: http://www.fountainpen.de/old-80er-146.htm .

 

Since this pen has the 146G designation, I would expect that it would have a nib with cross-hatching in the circle that surrounds the MB star. Similar to this one: http://www.fountainpen.de/old-144-gray-striated.htm

[talkinghead]

Hari's observations about the cleanliness & crispness of the nib are right on target. Axel also knows much more about the celluloid generation than many other people. His opinion should carry considerable weight. Perhaps it is a new nib on an older pen.

 

Can a 146 expert who has both a celluloid 146 and a plastic model with bi-color nib show the two side by side? My recollection is that for non-celluloid 146 pens, the 14C nibs were monochromatic all yellow gold; whereas the later 14K nibs were bi-color. Also, is there scrolled engraving along the flanks of all post-celluloid bi-color 146 nibs? The flanked engraving was not present on the 146 all yellow gold 14C nibs of non-celluloid vintage. The 1950s celluloid 14C bi-color nibs also lacked the engraved scrolls along their flanks.

 

Certainly NOT an expert here by Barry's standards, but here are the nibs of #146's:

 

From left to right: 50's celluloid OB nib///late 70's-early 80's OB nib/// 90's M nib

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_lCnzbyHbd1g/S3hUg0ETl2I/AAAAAAAACGI/3GN2vklYwQc/s800/DSCF4528.JPG

 

As usual, Mr. Gabay is right on target!

 

 

50's:bicolor 14C, no scrolled engravings on the flank, and the "M" has crosshatching in the circle (credit Niksch)

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_lCnzbyHbd1g/S3hX9B0JOOI/AAAAAAAACG0/GPnSF7v0sb8/s800/DSCF4532.JPG

 

70-80's: monocolor 14K, no scrolled engravings on the flank, "M" circle with no cross hatching

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_lCnzbyHbd1g/S3hX9tCc6yI/AAAAAAAACG4/ecZJCIRhJJM/s800/DSCF4533.JPG

 

90's: bicolor 14K, HAS scrolled engraving along flank, "M" circle with no cross hatching

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lCnzbyHbd1g/S3hX-ZHW5PI/AAAAAAAACG8/3OS89ATwRQo/s800/DSCF4534.JPG

 

 

Full gallery of #146 pics here:

146 nibs

 

Discuss amongst yourselves...

 

 

Rick

Edited February 14, 2010 by talkinghead

[leonard6july]

"Hi,

I found the same problem with the 149 years 50, then I discovered that C was put on the pens of export and K on the pens for the German market."

 

Hello, Please clarify the above statement. Maybe I'm missing something. In more than 35 years of drooling over them, and 31 years of using them, I have never seen a Montblanc 149 with a nib marked K prior to the mid-1980s, nor have I met anyone who has. I have seen several photocopies of Montblanc catalogs from the 1950s, printed in German so I assume they are for domestic consumption. In them, the 140 series pens (142, 144, 146, and 149) are pictured with C nibs. I have owned numerous 149s manufactured prior to the mid-1980s. These older 149s (both celluloid and plastic) had the following nibs: 3-tone 14C, 3-tone 18C, 2-tone 14C.

 

I am very anxious to have someone confirm the existence of 149 nibs of an older vintage marked with a K. If true, this will add at least one more nib style to those already documented.

 

I purchased a MB 149 from one of the regular sellers here, listed as a 60's to 70's model. The nib is marked "14K" as described as narrow shoulders with short tines. I wonder if this was mis-represented.

[hari317]

I purchased a MB 149 from one of the regular sellers here, listed as a 60's to 70's model. The nib is marked "14K" as described as narrow shoulders with short tines. I wonder if this was mis-represented.

 

Probably, can you post a link to the thread?

[jar]

I purchased a MB 149 from one of the regular sellers here, listed as a 60's to 70's model. The nib is marked "14K" as described as narrow shoulders with short tines. I wonder if this was mis-represented.

 

Probably, can you post a link to the thread?

 

Although not necessarily intentional.

 

There's not a day that goes by that I do not learn that something I knew for sure was for sure wrong.

[hari317]

 

Although not necessarily intentional.

 

 

Agreed, it may be not be intentional.

[kushbaby]

Just to toss another question into the mix:

 

I recently purchased a 1950s celluloid 146 from a trusted seller. Post showing pen and writing sample here.

 

It is marked "KF" on the turning knob, and it is indeed a KF nib (from my experience with Pelikan "Kugel" nibs and a Waterman "Ballpoint" nib) - it is a "ballpoint"-type nib with flex. I do *believe* that this nib matches the pen.

 

Here are photos of the nib. Note that the circle around the snowflake is *not* hatched.

 

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv327/kushbaby_pics/MB146KFnibtop.jpg

 

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv327/kushbaby_pics/MB146KFnibside.jpg

 

So, though I am NOT an expert by any means, this makes me doubt the "the circle has to be hatched" rule. Transitional? Different for "special" nibs? Any thoughts?

[niksch]

Is your pen a 146 or 146G. I susect it is a 146 because of the round feed--an indicator of mid-late 50s production. 146Gs had flat feeds and were produced as early as 1948.

 

SO to reiterate, I would expect a 146G to have the cross-hatching in the circle around the MB star. I would not expect cross-hatching on a later 146 model.

 

Just because a seller is trusted, does not mean they are infalliable.

 

Just to toss another question into the mix:

 

I recently purchased a 1950s celluloid 146 from a trusted seller. Post showing pen and writing sample here.

 

It is marked "KF" on the turning knob, and it is indeed a KF nib (from my experience with Pelikan "Kugel" nibs and a Waterman "Ballpoint" nib) - it is a "ballpoint"-type nib with flex. I do *believe* that this nib matches the pen.

 

Here are photos of the nib. Note that the circle around the snowflake is *not* hatched.

 

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv327/kushbaby_pics/MB146KFnibtop.jpg

 

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv327/kushbaby_pics/MB146KFnibside.jpg

 

So, though I am NOT an expert by any means, this makes me doubt the "the circle has to be hatched" rule. Transitional? Different for "special" nibs? Any thoughts?

[niksch]

Is your pen a 146 or 146G. I susect it is a 146 because of the round feed--an indicator of mid-late 50s production. 146Gs had flat feeds and were produced as early as 1948.

 

SO to reiterate, I would expect a 146G to have the cross-hatching in the circle around the MB star. I would not expect cross-hatching on a later 146 model.

 

Just because a seller is trusted, does not mean they are infalliable.

 

Just to toss another question into the mix:

 

I recently purchased a 1950s celluloid 146 from a trusted seller. Post showing pen and writing sample here.

 

It is marked "KF" on the turning knob, and it is indeed a KF nib (from my experience with Pelikan "Kugel" nibs and a Waterman "Ballpoint" nib) - it is a "ballpoint"-type nib with flex. I do *believe* that this nib matches the pen.

 

Here are photos of the nib. Note that the circle around the snowflake is *not* hatched.

 

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv327/kushbaby_pics/MB146KFnibtop.jpg

 

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv327/kushbaby_pics/MB146KFnibside.jpg

 

So, though I am NOT an expert by any means, this makes me doubt the "the circle has to be hatched" rule. Transitional? Different for "special" nibs? Any thoughts?

[niksch]

Is your pen a 146 or 146G. I suspect it is a 146 because of the round feed--an indicator of mid-late 50s production. 146Gs had flat feeds and were of the earliest production of the line, produced as early as 1948.

 

SO to reiterate, I would expect a 146G to have the cross-hatching in the circle around the MB star. I would not expect cross-hatching on a later 146 model such as yours appears to be.

 

Just because a seller is trusted, does not mean they are infalliable.

 

Just to toss another question into the mix:

 

I recently purchased a 1950s celluloid 146 from a trusted seller. Post showing pen and writing sample here.

 

It is marked "KF" on the turning knob, and it is indeed a KF nib (from my experience with Pelikan "Kugel" nibs and a Waterman "Ballpoint" nib) - it is a "ballpoint"-type nib with flex. I do *believe* that this nib matches the pen.

 

Here are photos of the nib. Note that the circle around the snowflake is *not* hatched.

 

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv327/kushbaby_pics/MB146KFnibtop.jpg

 

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv327/kushbaby_pics/MB146KFnibside.jpg

 

So, though I am NOT an expert by any means, this makes me doubt the "the circle has to be hatched" rule. Transitional? Different for "special" nibs? Any thoughts?

Edited February 15, 2010 by niksch

[kushbaby]

Is your pen a 146 or 146G. I suspect it is a 146 because of the round feed--an indicator of mid-late 50s production. 146Gs had flat feeds and were of the earliest production of the line, produced as early as 1948.

 

SO to reiterate, I would expect a 146G to have the cross-hatching in the circle around the MB star. I would not expect cross-hatching on a later 146 model such as yours appears to be.

 

Oooooohhh.... I misread the part where you said it was the 146Gs that had hatching in the circle (and I didn't realize that talkinghead's 1950s 146 with hatched circle was a G). Yes, mine is a regular ol' 146, billed as ~1955. Thanks for the clarification! I learned something today!

 

Just because a seller is trusted, does not mean they are infalliable.

 

Oh, I *certainly* know this. I was just indicating that it wasn't from eBay...

[talkinghead]

Is your pen a 146 or 146G. I suspect it is a 146 because of the round feed--an indicator of mid-late 50s production. 146Gs had flat feeds and were of the earliest production of the line, produced as early as 1948.

 

SO to reiterate, I would expect a 146G to have the cross-hatching in the circle around the MB star. I would not expect cross-hatching on a later 146 model such as yours appears to be.

 

Oooooohhh.... I misread the part where you said it was the 146Gs that had hatching in the circle (and I didn't realize that talkinghead's 1950s 146 with hatched circle was a G). Yes, mine is a regular ol' 146, billed as ~1955. Thanks for the clarification! I learned something today!

 

 

Hmmmmmmm interesting......just checked my other 146's ....and yes kush, the pen in my post in this thread is a 146G and has the cross hatched M. I have another celluloid #146 (not a G), with rounded feed so probably later 50's....and the M has NO CROSSHATCHING!

 

Just to confirm Herr Niksch's observations...he is THE MAN! .............and to reassure you kushbaby.

 

Rick