Mixing Inks - Sailor nano

[drawline]

What would, or could the consequences be of mixing Sailor inks, like Kiwa Guro in my case also, with other inks that happen to be a bad match?

Wherein lies the problem, factually explained? I have used both Hod and Herbin Cdb to wash out Kiwa Guro (both are advertised as ph neutral which I'm sure can be good or bad depending on where Sailor lies on the scale, and with corresponding components to match the ph).

 

kushbaby mentioned someone making "toxic ink" and particular badness happening, a bit scary and particular.

Otherwise it can be hard to take the manufacturers recommendations at face value, with protection of market shares and understandably guarding against possible future "bubble gum ink" incidents that are very unique and hard to foresee and what not.

[Sandy1]

  On 1/16/2010 at 8:55 PM, drawline said:

What would, or could the consequences be of mixing Sailor inks, like Kiwa Guro in my case also, with other inks that happen to be a bad match?

Wherein lies the problem, factually explained? I have used both Hod and Herbin Cdb to wash out Kiwa Guro (both are advertised as ph neutral which I'm sure can be good or bad depending on where Sailor lies on the scale, and with corresponding components to match the ph).

 

kushbaby mentioned someone making "toxic ink" and particular badness happening, a bit scary and particular.

Otherwise it can be hard to take the manufacturers recommendations at face value, with protection of market shares and understandably guarding against possible future "bubble gum ink" incidents that are very unique and hard to foresee and what not.

1. What happens if you get a bad match? So far black holes and event horizons have been avoided. It appears that the worst thing is a precipitate, which can be easily detected. Then again I don't have a microscope, so perhaps there were precipitates formed in some mixes that I couldn't see. Also noteworthy is that the pharm-grade glass eyedropper I used solely for the SNBlBk was stained, and that could not be removed by soap or detergent.
2. The answer factually explained? No attempt at that, and is beyond the scope of work and my qualifications. It was enough to do empirical demonstrations, which is fine, because that's where the rubber meets the road; don't tell me, show me instead. When different inks of the same brand behaved differently, all bets were off and things became rather pointless - which summarizes my interpretation of results. So I doubt that failed mixes are determined / can be predicted solely on the basis of the ph factor of the inks mixed with SNBlBk.
3. No mix outwardly exhibited toxicity, rapid oxidation (explosive, fire, etc.) Then again, I didn't run toxicity tests on wee critters.
4. Kindly explain what is meant by using other inks to 'wash out Kiwa Guro'. KG is quite water resistant so should not 'wash out'. To weaken the colour, especially a Bk, one is likely looking at perhaps a 1+4 with a light tone ink. (See WotW mix. Very similar results were obtained with water: a 10% solution was pale, but legible. Is there another ink that can be diluted that much and be OK when run through an FP?) Otherwise, if using Noodler's 'HoD' or Herbin 'Cacao du Bresil' to weaken KG you're likely looking at 1 KG + >20 [HoD/CdB].

Should you have any other Qs/comments, please send me a PM - I'm not around much these days to garden Threads. You may wish to create your own Thread, with reference/links to this Thread. The only thing I think needs to be done is to do water soaks of the mixes. Or do you think additional work should be undertaken?

 

BR - S1

[drawline]

Sandy1 forgive me if you understood that it was solely directed at you in your quest for nice Sailor nano ink mixes, I should probably have opted to create a new thread instead. Also with your in depth response I hope that I wasn't understood to be critical or on the edge, also not in general towards anyone - I only meant to raise concerns, because I'm afraid something bad might happen to my nibs, or the sound of "toxic ink" whatever that may mean. So it was rather in hope of getting the attention of kushbaby (who may be more likely to re visit your thread) on the mention of someone creating a bad batch, or some generous chemist that may guess why its would be a bad thing to mix Sailor ink with other inks.

 

And with "wash out" I meant "clean out" (by topping the converter with the often lighter dye based ink), inbetween full rinsings, and to get some variation. But apropos that I do think that Kiwa Guro has an serious issue with soaking once put to paper - not really the same subject but it might be valuable info - as the excess amounts leap of the page to a notable degree clouding the intact lines (sometimes with almost pretty results!) unlike any other.

 

Again sorry, I feel bad now - unless I misunderstood. Thanks for your explanations in any case, and I'm thinking now seeing your pm notification that maybe it was just all in total good will and by generosity. In any case, hope that I didn't come across as asking for too much!

 

edit: line-formatting

Edited January 17, 2010 by drawline

[Sandy1]

  On 1/17/2010 at 6:35 PM, drawline said:

Sandy1 forgive me if you understood that it was solely directed at you in your quest for nice Sailor nano ink mixes, I should probably have opted to create a new thread instead. Also with your in depth response I hope that I wasn't understood to be critical or on the edge, also not in general towards anyone - I only meant to raise concerns, because I'm afraid something bad might happen to my nibs, or the sound of "toxic ink" whatever that may mean. So it was rather in hope of getting the attention of kushbaby (who may be more likely to re visit your thread) on the mention of someone creating a bad batch, or some generous chemist that may guess why its would be a bad thing to mix Sailor ink with other inks.

 

And with "wash out" I meant "clean out" (by topping the converter with the often lighter dye based ink), inbetween full rinsings, and to get some variation. But apropos that I do think that Kiwa Guro has an serious issue with soaking once put to paper - not really the same subject but it might be valuable info - as the excess amounts leap of the page to a notable degree clouding the intact lines (sometimes with almost pretty results!) unlike any other.

 

Again sorry, I feel bad now - unless I misunderstood. Thanks for your explanations in any case, and I'm thinking now seeing your pm notification that maybe it was just all in total good will and by generosity. In any case, hope that I didn't come across as asking for too much!

 

edit: line-formatting

Hi drawline,

I was not the least bit offended or even moderately irked by your Post. My goodness, I serve(d) in the military and work in the oil patch - both environments are not known for kid gloves. And indeed, if I seemed a tad testy, I did braid my hair too tight again, and King the neighbours' great monster Black Lab Retriever fell into the river when I was walking him. He's OK, and so am I, just a little frayed at the seams.

 

But mostly I wasn't able to come-up with any real pattern of behaviour for mixing SNBlBk with any other ink, hence not even a guideline. No - strike that - 'does not play well with f-g inks'. There, One Guideline.

 

Otherwise, I reckon a person has to figure-out the end-use of the ink, then determine if a Nano can help meet the end-use requirements. If it does work OK with some Blue ink, then the SNBlBk may give tighter lines, esp. for the needlepoint to F nib users. Also, the waterproof characteristic may also be transferred to the mix. (Is this starting to sound like Animal Husbandry 201?)

 

Also, it may be mixed as any dark blue ink to produce greens, purples, maroon, lighter blue, etc. There are a few successes, enough to be a bit useful starting points for other practitioners. e.g. 'Nano Blue Whale'; and the mix with PR's 'Tanzanite' that I'll dub 'Tarzanite', because it's fortified - likely not so uncontrolable / wet as PRT. As it did OK with a few bullet-proof Noodler's, then it may reduce nib creep, (and the subsequent demand for hooded nibs).

 

I do have to add my $0.02 worth about the appearance of SNBlBk : I really don't like the way it sits on a page. Ah me. A rather odd appearance: where one fully expects a dark colour to receed behind the plane of the paper, SNBlBk seems 'stuck' & lifeless just barely behind the plane of the paper - it does not have (create or own) a space for itself. Very odd, and tough to explain. If I didn't have a use for it, I wouldn't buy it, or suggest it to anyone without the need.

 

Your concerns about nibs (& the rest of your kit) have proven to be with some foundation. I think I mentioned that SNBlBk is persistent and takes a long time to clean from a pen. (I waited about 1 day between each sample - most of that time was taken flushing & soaking the Preppy. Suds didn't speed-up the ablutions either.) So as GP isn't [insert naughty word] about cleaning, then SNBlBk may not be for someone that naughty: residues of SNBlBk left in a pen may create precipitation in the pen, and loading a not-so-clean pen with SNBlBk may cause the same problem. So should people get pen/s just for SNBlBk / SNBk? I would. No way this is going into my hi-end or fave pens. Also, I would suggest the simplest, most easy to clean feed/storage systems: a plain hard converter or a single-use dedicated cartridge seems likely candidates. (Dribble the rinse water on a saucer then let it dry. If you see even a hint of Blue, you're not done washing. (same for any ink really, but I think this one requires more effort & higher standards of cleanliness.)

 

and: I didn't have any problem with SNBlBk misbehaving as you describe:

"... I do think that Kiwa Guro has an serious issue with soaking once put to paper - not really the same subject but it might be valuable info - as the excess amounts leap of the page to a notable degree clouding the intact lines (sometimes with almost pretty results!) unlike any other."

-=> My experience is that the SNBLbk on its own or in a mix has good manners, and stays where its put. However, if we go outside the realm of writing, and consider the use of an Asian 'calligraphy' nib, or a brush nib, in conjunction with a damp surface and/or steamer and/or plant spray-mister might have possibilities. I do have a Manga nib Pilot around here. Likely a robust paper would be required. But that's for the drawers & painters, not scribes & scibblers. I have enough trouble with Crayolas - no kidding.

 

Oh, always ask for what you want - most people aren't mind readers. (Except maybe kushbaby. Don't be shy, send her a PM to take a look-see.) & if its too much, 'No' is always a valid answer. (Didn't The Stones have a tune about that?)

 

But really, what is needed is a Blue the colour of the aliens' skin in 'Avatar'! Heck of a flic in 3D!! My vertigo was shot for a day after seeing it.

 

Best Regards,

Sandy1

[Sandy1]

6 parts Sailor Nano BlBk + 6 parts Pelikan 4001 'BlBk'

>> Serious OOPS! The PBlBk is an old bottle, with a 'Farook' price tag in Dirhams. The ink is a very pale grey-brown. Was this is ever an iron-gall formulation? Shaking bottle has no effect, and no sediment.

>> Heavy chunky fall-out : not just precipitate!

>> Oddly enough, the mix is very dark Blue-Grey, much darker than SNBlBk on its own. So the PBlBk must be doing something. But what? Is this an 'event horizon' approaching?

[kushbaby]

  On 1/24/2010 at 4:02 PM, Sandy1 said:

6 parts Sailor Nano BlBk + 6 parts Pelikan 4001 'BlBk'

>> Serious OOPS! The PBlBk is an old bottle, with a 'Farook' price tag in Dirhams. The ink is a very pale grey-brown. Was this is ever an iron-gall formulation? Shaking bottle has no effect, and no sediment.

>> Heavy chunky fall-out : not just precipitate!

>> Oddly enough, the mix is very dark Blue-Grey, much darker than SNBlBk on its own. So the PBlBk must be doing something. But what? Is this an 'event horizon' approaching?

 

I'm waiting for the cold fusion moment... Sounds like you're getting close.

 

[Sandy1]

  On 1/26/2010 at 2:39 AM, kushbaby said:

  On 1/24/2010 at 4:02 PM, Sandy1 said:

6 parts Sailor Nano BlBk + 6 parts Pelikan 4001 'BlBk'

>> Serious OOPS! The PBlBk is an old bottle, with a 'Farook' price tag in Dirhams. The ink is a very pale grey-brown. Was this is ever an iron-gall formulation? Shaking bottle has no effect, and no sediment.

>> Heavy chunky fall-out : not just precipitate!

>> Oddly enough, the mix is very dark Blue-Grey, much darker than SNBlBk on its own. So the PBlBk must be doing something. But what? Is this an 'event horizon' approaching?

 

I'm waiting for the cold fusion moment... Sounds like you're getting close.

 

Ah kushbaby -- Don't tell me you are not 'hoping for zee best' no? Nothing like a blazing firey crash as I auger in / vaporise? -- All in fun, S1

[Sandy1]

  On 1/26/2010 at 2:39 AM, kushbaby said:

  On 1/24/2010 at 4:02 PM, Sandy1 said:

6 parts Sailor Nano BlBk + 6 parts Pelikan 4001 'BlBk'

>> Serious OOPS! The PBlBk is an old bottle, with a 'Farook' price tag in Dirhams. The ink is a very pale grey-brown. Was this is ever an iron-gall formulation? Shaking bottle has no effect, and no sediment.

>> Heavy chunky fall-out : not just precipitate!

>> Oddly enough, the mix is very dark Blue-Grey, much darker than SNBlBk on its own. So the PBlBk must be doing something. But what? Is this an 'event horizon' approaching?

 

I'm waiting for the cold fusion moment... Sounds like you're getting close.

 

No really -- I think I bought this PBlBk in a ME Gulf State maybe 5 years ago. How long it was on Farook's shelf is anyone's guess. I don't even recall using/opening it. -- S1

[Sandy1]

6 parts Sailor 'Nano BlBk' + 6 parts R&K 'Permanent Blue' :

=> Useful mix? Yes, this mix should be quite water resistant.

=> Useful colour? Yes, A good medium Blue. Fairly firm.

=> Tuning? Maybe. Nothing exceptional to be gained.

 

Note: I've been told that 'permanent', when applied to European inks, means that they cannot be removed by an ink eraser. However, just water washes it away. (??)

[kushbaby]

  On 1/27/2010 at 1:54 AM, Sandy1 said:

  On 1/26/2010 at 2:39 AM, kushbaby said:

  On 1/24/2010 at 4:02 PM, Sandy1 said:

6 parts Sailor Nano BlBk + 6 parts Pelikan 4001 'BlBk'

>> Serious OOPS! The PBlBk is an old bottle, with a 'Farook' price tag in Dirhams. The ink is a very pale grey-brown. Was this is ever an iron-gall formulation? Shaking bottle has no effect, and no sediment.

>> Heavy chunky fall-out : not just precipitate!

>> Oddly enough, the mix is very dark Blue-Grey, much darker than SNBlBk on its own. So the PBlBk must be doing something. But what? Is this an 'event horizon' approaching?

 

I'm waiting for the cold fusion moment... Sounds like you're getting close.

 

Ah kushbaby -- Don't tell me you are not 'hoping for zee best' no? Nothing like a blazing firey crash as I auger in / vaporise? -- All in fun, S1

 

Well, I was assuming you're doing all of these mixing studies while wearing a full (and very stylish, I'm sure) fusion-proof suit....

[Sandy1]

6 parts Sailor 'Nano BlBk' + 6 parts Quink 'Blue' :

=> Useful mix? Nope. Precipitate formed.

=> Useful colour? Nothing exceptional. Even for dip pen better can br bought off the shelf.

=> Tuning? Nope - time waster.

 

 

[kushbaby]

Where did you purchase the Sailor nano blue-black?

 

Edit: Never mind - found it on eBay.

Edited February 3, 2010 by kushbaby

[Sandy1]

  On 2/3/2010 at 3:26 AM, kushbaby said:

Where did you purchase the Sailor nano blue-black?

 

Edit: Never mind - found it on eBay.

Yikes & Oh well. I thought wise folk would steer clear of this ink, and now it seems that you are ordering? Don't make me say 'I told you so.' (oooo, I am just so passive-aggressive today) -- S1 :-)

[kushbaby]

  On 2/4/2010 at 8:34 PM, Sandy1 said:

  On 2/3/2010 at 3:26 AM, kushbaby said:

Where did you purchase the Sailor nano blue-black?

 

Edit: Never mind - found it on eBay.

Yikes & Oh well. I thought wise folk would steer clear of this ink, and now it seems that you are ordering? Don't make me say 'I told you so.' (oooo, I am just so passive-aggressive today) -- S1 :-)

 

Uhhhhh... Did I miss the memo? I know it's a long topic but... Why? :hmm1:

 

(I love nano-black...)

 

And just because I can... BUNNIES!!!

 

:bunny01:

[inkcoffee]

  On 12/19/2009 at 6:59 AM, kushbaby said:

As others have indicated, badness can happen when mixing Sailor inks with others due to pH. Since I am an impatient person when it comes to pen flushing (I try to be thorough, but after day 4 of soaking, enough is enough), I have certain pens (mostly Sailors, a few Safaris) that are dedicated Sailor ink pens. No other brand of ink goes in the pen.

 

To quote another FPN member (I'm blanking on whom) who mixed these...

 

"Oh noes! I made toxic ink!"

 

 

 

This sounds like Sailor Kenshin.

[Sandy1]

  On 2/5/2010 at 1:14 AM, kushbaby said:

  On 2/4/2010 at 8:34 PM, Sandy1 said:

  On 2/3/2010 at 3:26 AM, kushbaby said:

Where did you purchase the Sailor nano blue-black?

 

Edit: Never mind - found it on eBay.

Yikes & Oh well. I thought wise folk would steer clear of this ink, and now it seems that you are ordering? Don't make me say 'I told you so.' (oooo, I am just so passive-aggressive today) -- S1 :-)

 

Uhhhhh... Did I miss the memo? I know it's a long topic but... Why? :hmm1:

 

(I love nano-black...)

 

And just because I can... BUNNIES!!!

 

:bunny01:

Ah kushbaby -- Memo? What memo? We don't need no stinking memo!!

For real : As we have seen, the SNBlBk can interact with other inks to form precipitates that will damage an FP. I cannot predict what inks will form precipitates, or to what extent. Also, I have concerns that I missed precipitates because I am using unassisted vision - not even a lupe - to detect precipitates. And last but not least: It hinges around pen hygiene. The SNBlBk is extremely persistent in a pen, and takes a long time & many soaks to cleanse. So if one loaded another ink before or following SNBlBk, then precipitate might be formed within the pen when/if encountering SNBlBk.

So if you're willing to take a maximum cleanliness vow, then OK. But some folk have mentioned mixing ink within the reservoir/tank/cartridge/sac, etc. and that just gives me the willies should they do that with SNBlBk.

 

I use a Preppy for this task, and the ink load is only in the pen for minutes - just long enough to even-out the flow, then jot a few words as a sample. I haven't left any of the mixes sitting for days on end just to see what might happen.

 

That mimics how I use my pens, other than the workhorse Sonnet : ink-up, write, then clean-up. Usually hours, rarely over 3 days, not yet over a week. I like my pens to be clean & dry, so they're ready for use on the spot. (I think that comes from my early days in the oil patch, when we had to keep a satchel with personal kit & clothes for several days at the office or when we went out - at times we had to go out to the field 'instanter'. I didn't want my Duofold to dry out while I was away.)

 

Well, time to give Ike his pill. (I think someone in the park fed him something disagreeable.)

 

OBTW, Cathy-Next-Door tried some snaps of the samples, but no dice - not so nice.

 

Bye,

S1

[kushbaby]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll likely use it in pens that haven't ever had any other ink in them - or pens that have only had Sailor nano-black in them. But good to know about the cleanliness thing if I wanted to try it in something else...

 

Didi you try to mix nano-black and nano-blue?

 

[Sandy1]

  On 2/6/2010 at 2:37 AM, kushbaby said:

Thanks for the clarification. I'll likely use it in pens that haven't ever had any other ink in them - or pens that have only had Sailor nano-black in them. But good to know about the cleanliness thing if I wanted to try it in something else...

 

Didi you try to mix nano-black and nano-blue?

 

Ah kushbaby,

I have not purchased any Black FP ink ever.

Black for sumi-e - OK.

Black for cheque book balance - wishful thinking.

But no SNBk to mix.

But, for you & because I reckon this thing really does need to come to a conclusion, I'll think of something amusing.

I really don't think that there should be any problem mixing the 2 SNs. (Yeah right.) As I found, the SNBlBk is really just a dark blue mis-interpreted/masquerading as a BlBk. So maybe...

Well time to drug the dog, then I'm off for many ZZZZzzzzZZs. To the office later : delegate & put wee prezzies on desks for my minions' Monday morn. Likely they'll be a tad frayed from the Bowl, so I'm going for the Most Popular Manager prize.

BR,

S1

[vrs-katana]

This is a really useful exercise, though old. Thank you @Sandy1!

[inkstainedruth]

I wish that the neighbor could have gotten photos.  I had missed this thread before now, and would have liked to have seen the results (both in a sample vial and on the page).

Of course I'm ALSO now thinking of another fairly old thread (albeit not quite as old as this one) where someone mixed Noodler's Black and Noodler's Bay State Blue together (in an attempt to make the "perfect" blue-black color (or at least that person's definition of "perfect").  And then put it into a pen *before* seeing how the two inks (one neutral pH and one very alkaline) got on....  

And the results? They were NOT pretty....  Part of a written line would be one color, another part would be the other; occasionally they'd mix (wondering if the person could have used some sort of emulsifier -- but have no idea what to have suggested)....  Then the chemical reaction happened -- and the mix started coming out of the person's pen in solid chunks....   (Like I said -- NOT pretty....)  

Dunno if that person is still around -- or if the pen was salvageable....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth