Writing letters... do you write on the back?

[Carrie]

[

In terms of rules of etiquette, when was it decided that it was deemed offensive to write on the reverse of a paper? I'm guessing Edwardian or later. Certainly not a Victorian thing.

 

I am not sure when it was started, but it was certainly maintained through the Victorian period and today.

 

Having spent 10 years working with an 18th and 19th century archive containing both business and personal correspondence I can say I've never encountered it as a Victorian thing. I've still seen crossed letters as late as the 1880s and even when the letters aren't crossed, every bit of paper was used.

[CCMphysician]

[

In terms of rules of etiquette, when was it decided that it was deemed offensive to write on the reverse of a paper? I'm guessing Edwardian or later. Certainly not a Victorian thing.

 

I am not sure when it was started, but it was certainly maintained through the Victorian period and today.

 

Having spent 10 years working with an 18th and 19th century archive containing both business and personal correspondence I can say I've never encountered it as a Victorian thing. I've still seen crossed letters as late as the 1880s and even when the letters aren't crossed, every bit of paper was used.

 

Carrie,

 

Kindly see page 263 of Polite Society at Home and Abroad: A Complete Compendium of Information upon all Topics Classified under the Head of Etiquette published in 1891. A copy may be found at http://books.google.com/books?id=ASQMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA261&dq=letter+writing+etiquette+black+ink+new&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=EnIWS6K2IJrAywTjlYXwBg&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=&f=false. You will find:

 

Crossing your pages is positively an insult. Some ladies write across the proper way, then turn and recross, until it would need the patience of the famous Job, to decipher them. The writer remembers, when a girl, of receiving such a letter from a very dear cousin. It was crossed and criss-crossed in every conceivable direction, and in so fine a hand that it rivaled the intricacies of a spider's web. It is needless to say, that to this day the contents of that letter are uqknown to the recipient. It awoke the same feelings as expressed by a hero of a novel, who says—in speaking of a similar infliction—"Give me any other torture than this, to read a woman's plaid letter."

[wood]

To be blunt, some of these rules as to what is, and is not, acceptable seem appalingly sniffy.

 

...

 

Surely it's better to enjoy polite correspondence rather than to peer down the entire length of one's nose at the 'wrong sort' of letter-writing.

 

You can do what you like of course. It is helpful to know the rules though, so when you get treated differently, you know why.

 

"The rules"? Is there a current body that sets them, or are we talking about a historical hand-me-down? Your rules, I contend. And perhaps those of people who read and adhere to etiquette manuals. For my part I find the whole exercise somewhat outmoded and affected. And if someone treats me differently as a result then perhaps they've discarded the very point of politesse. Of course this is simply my opinion.

 

That said I'm close to turning a difference of opinion into an argument. I'll leave it there and offer a hand for the shaking.

 

 

The current body of them, which has changed very little in over a hundred years.

 

Certainly you can disregard them and I'm sure everyone will be very "polite" to you. The way people don't mention choice of wardrobe to the poor lad who turns up at a wedding in slacks and and a sport shirt, when everyone else is in morning dress.

 

However, when you don't follow the proper conventions, conclusions are drawn. These range along the lines of:

*Clueless fool who doesn't understand the rules, to

*Child or imbecile who can't be expected to follow the conventions, to

*Poseur who buys expensive items but whose working class roots keep showing and doesn't have the breeding.

 

Now, I can't speak for the OP's culture, but the last choice is the one I think will be the mostly likely in the West. People will see the expensive paper and the sheer writing of a letter as being retrograde for the sake of being retrograde as pretentious posing, once they see the writer is completely out of touch with proper etiquette and can't possibly be of the type you uses such things as a matter of course. Dependent of course on the class of the recipient. Prole hipsters would probably enjoy getting such a shoddily assembled letter for the irony of it, while others may miss the subtle cues that the letter is poorly done. The writing class however will notice straight off and draw conclusions.

 

 

It has become obvious by your choice of wording that you are trying to incite an emotional response in the readers of your posts. This is considered a modern breach of etiquette termed "trolling". If you wish a genuine civilized debate on the subject please word your comments to that effect.

[jazztonight]

My observation is that we tend to grasp onto those elements of etiquette that work for us, and ignore those that don't.

 

There's a time to be polite, and a time to be practical.

 

I became interested in fountain pens and ink because the practice of throwing otherwise perfectly good gel and ballpoint pens and refills into the landfill became abhorrent to me.

 

We are very active recyclers in my home, and if I can "save a tree" by writing on both sides of paper, I will.

 

That said, I'm currently using Staples eco-friendly sugarcane-based bagasse paper, which is too thin to use both sides. If they had bagasse envelopes, I'd use them too!

 

Of the dozen or so FPN correspondents I have, to date none has objected to my using this paper or the inexpensive envelopes I buy at Costco. Nor do I object to some of the beautiful stationery that comes my way--I admire it.

 

Through the years, with the evolution of women's rights and other major changes in society, certain rules of etiquette have necessarily changed (remember, there was a time when a married woman was referred to by her husband's first name, e.g. Mrs. Harry S. Truman).

 

We should not be slaves to tradition, etiquette, or common practice if it does not serve our purpose or the common good.

 

This does not, of course, mean that we shouldn't be polite or follow common courtesy in our writing, unlike those "Good authors, too, who once knew better words, (and) now only use four-letter words writing prose...."

[CCMphysician]

My observation is that we tend to grasp onto those elements of etiquette that work for us, and ignore those that don't.

 

There's a time to be polite, and a time to be practical.

 

I became interested in fountain pens and ink because the practice of throwing otherwise perfectly good gel and ballpoint pens and refills into the landfill became abhorrent to me.

 

We are very active recyclers in my home, and if I can "save a tree" by writing on both sides of paper, I will.

 

That said, I'm currently using Staples eco-friendly sugarcane-based bagasse paper, which is too thin to use both sides. If they had bagasse envelopes, I'd use them too!

 

Of the dozen or so FPN correspondents I have, to date none has objected to my using this paper or the inexpensive envelopes I buy at Costco. Nor do I object to some of the beautiful stationery that comes my way--I admire it.

 

Through the years, with the evolution of women's rights and other major changes in society, certain rules of etiquette have necessarily changed (remember, there was a time when a married woman was referred to by her husband's first name, e.g. Mrs. Harry S. Truman).

 

We should not be slaves to tradition, etiquette, or common practice if it does not serve our purpose or the common good.

 

This does not, of course, mean that we shouldn't be polite or follow common courtesy in our writing, unlike those "Good authors, too, who once knew better words, (and) now only use four-letter words writing prose...."

 

Actually they still are referred to by their husband's name. At least here in the Commonwealth. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. Thank you.

[cmeisenzahl]

Rarely.

[pen2paper]

quote 'jazztonight' ...

 

There's a time to be polite, and a time to be practical.

 

I became interested in fountain pens and ink because the practice of throwing otherwise perfectly good gel and ballpoint pens and refills into the landfill became abhorrent to me.

 

We are very active recyclers in my home, and if I can "save a tree" by writing on both sides of paper, I will.

 

That said, I'm currently using Staples eco-friendly sugarcane-based bagasse paper, which is too thin to use both sides. If they had bagasse envelopes, I'd use them too!

 

p2p replies.. if time allows, you might make your own envelope out of bagasse..there are templates.

Just before you arrived at FPN, there was an enthusiastic thread on folding ones single page letter into an envelope.

as for my own humble 2 cents worth.. I have an original Victorian era book on etiquette.. pleasant, with many niceties that still could be entertained.. However, All wasn't perfect in the society of that era.. still true today.

 

I'm Am perfectly delighted when I received any communication from someone who has taken the time to consider Me worthy of their time and interest.

(possible exception billing errors-unresolved due to computer, inept human errors;)

That someone finds an interesting method to share themselves, whether it be on high end paper, samples of new paper types-each page different paper/sizes, and especially with side notes of the penS, and inkS they've used, is sincerely thrilling!

 

I've yet to receive a crosshatched letter, but would heartily welcome such an endeavour.

 

Btw, I could not conceive of mentally correcting grammar, spacing, punctuation errors... in fact, would celebrate the courage of another to attempt to communicate, to the best of their ability, whatever the issues preventing unobtainable, (to all of us), perfection.

please pardon my itty bitty semi-rant contained within the above:)

Finally, though I agree bagasse is too thin to write on the back..though bleed-through is not the issue..

I do think it Might be a condidate for crosshatch writing On The Reverse Side, as this wouldn't interfere with the reading on the front???

Please report if anyone tries this... not up to experimentation today-cranky-flannel-soup-oink-bug.

[Alexander Winter]

Hi People, great topic! Personally I would rather receive a hand written letter - short, long, sideways, whatever? than to receive no correspondence at all. Happy Holidays.

[Chthulhu]

Just look at the hot air wasted over whether milk should be added to the tea, or tea to the milk. What is the point of caring?

 

Done the wrong way, the milk can separate and create unattractive globules or oily sheens on the surface of the tea.

 

As it was explained to me, the purpose of putting the milk into the cup first was so that it could be easily inspected for freshness before potentially ruining a cup of good tea.

[CCMphysician]

Just look at the hot air wasted over whether milk should be added to the tea, or tea to the milk. What is the point of caring?

 

Done the wrong way, the milk can separate and create unattractive globules or oily sheens on the surface of the tea.

 

As it was explained to me, the purpose of putting the milk into the cup first was so that it could be easily inspected for freshness before potentially ruining a cup of good tea.

 

The heat and, to a lesser degree, the acidity of the tea can actually cause the casein to precipitate out by changing the solubility of the milk in solution. This is because it denatures the protein and changes its structure, exposing hydrophobic regions of the protein to the aqueous tea environment. A similar phenomenon in that there is a change in solubility can also create an oily sheen on the surface of the tea. This is derived from the milk fat/cholesterol and is basically a crystallization extraction gone wrong.

 

Regards,

CCMphysician

[Carrie]

 

Crossing your pages is positively an insult. Some ladies write across the proper way, then turn and recross, until it would need the patience of the famous Job, to decipher them. The writer remembers, when a girl, of receiving such a letter from a very dear cousin. It was crossed and criss-crossed in every conceivable direction, and in so fine a hand that it rivaled the intricacies of a spider's web. It is needless to say, that to this day the contents of that letter are uqknown to the recipient. It awoke the same feelings as expressed by a hero of a novel, who says—in speaking of a similar infliction—"Give me any other torture than this, to read a woman's plaid letter."

 

If that's the full quote then nowhere is it saying that you shouldn't write on the reverse of a page. As I stated previously, we had 1880s crossed letters, however by that time they were the exception rather than the norm that they had been at the beginning of the century. Certainly amongst our 7000 letters the reverse of a page was being used throughout the 19th century.

[ZeissIkon]

It has become obvious by your choice of wording that you are trying to incite an emotional response in the readers of your posts. This is considered a modern breach of etiquette termed "trolling". If you wish a genuine civilized debate on the subject please word your comments to that effect.

 

You should see him in Inky Thoughts...

Edited December 3, 2009 by ZeissIkon

[Possum Hill]

 

It has become obvious by your choice of wording that you are trying to incite an emotional response in the readers of your posts. This is considered a modern breach of etiquette termed "trolling". If you wish a genuine civilized debate on the subject please word your comments to that effect.

 

Well said. Proper etiquette doesn't excuse rudeness.

[lefty928]

Before this century (the 20th), letters were expensive and delivery was imperfect. Often letters were not only written on front and back but the paper was turned 90 degrees and another two sheets of writing were squeezed out of the paper. Called "crosshatching", it required a bit of effort to read the letter, to say the least. But that was the standard of the time.

 

 

 

In some cases they would then turn the page again and write a third time, this time on the diagonal. Those letters with a diagonal as well are extremely difficult to read. With the crosshatching you just have to keep your eye in and they really are easy to read. Most people just look at them and are instantly intimidated, so don't really try to read them properly. I wonder if anyone on here has ever tried writing and sending a crosshatched letter?

 

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/carrieh/work/page1.jpg

 

For personal correspondence I usually write on the reverse of a sheet, it simply comes down to saving money on postage.

 

 

 

Edited to correct inability to type.

I've written one page within a letter, just as an experiment, although it didn't look nearly as beautiful as the sample. (The letter was to an FPNer, in the hope he would be more primed to tolerate my curiosity about this old practice.) I didn't know about then writing a third time on the diagonal, which would be a disaster with my handwriting!

[Blade Runner]

Unless I'm desperately pressed for space (travelling and running out of paper), I write only on one side, the side on which the watermark can be read. Nicer presentation in my opinion and some papers are sized differently on the reverse side.

Edited December 5, 2009 by jeen

[Carrie]

 

I've written one page within a letter, just as an experiment, although it didn't look nearly as beautiful as the sample. (The letter was to an FPNer, in the hope he would be more primed to tolerate my curiosity about this old practice.) I didn't know about then writing a third time on the diagonal, which would be a disaster with my handwriting!

Wouldn't it be great if the recipient came on here to let us know how they got on with reading it I'm very tempted to try it out on a letter too.

[wood]

I would love to try this. Which way is the diagonal read? I can't make it out from the picture.

[wood]

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/2wood/quill/crosshatchletter.jpg

 

Well, here is my attempt. I think I should have used smaller handwriting and more italic. Can anybody read it?

[pen2paper]

actually, once I enlarged it slightly, the intial page was quite readable..

since I couldn't turn the page, I couldn't continue in the same focus...but I imagine it would be the same.

There may some who have perception issues, so this style may not work for them..

but do see where its historically economical usage worked quite well.

Thanks Wood for the example..nice writing too!

[wood]

It got a bit confusing writing the diagonal. I used a line guide and had to shift the paper after the first turn. Thanks for the handwriting complement. I was writing larger than I usually do and my handwriting suffered.