Writing letters... do you write on the back?

[GreenVelvet]

Why does the G.Lalo envelope have to be so expensive =(???

 

 

That is likely an effect of distribution where you live. They are dirt cheap Stateside.

 

By my budget standards, G. Lalo Verge de France envelopes are not dirt cheap, and I've not found a retailer that offers them at a lower cost than Clairefontaine Triomphe envelopes. I would venture to say the price difference is because the Verge de France envelopes are lined - a very nice, classy touch.

[orangos]

To be blunt, some of these rules as to what is, and is not, acceptable seem appalingly sniffy.

 

...

 

Surely it's better to enjoy polite correspondence rather than to peer down the entire length of one's nose at the 'wrong sort' of letter-writing.

 

You can do what you like of course. It is helpful to know the rules though, so when you get treated differently, you know why.

 

"The rules"? Is there a current body that sets them, or are we talking about a historical hand-me-down? Your rules, I contend. And perhaps those of people who read and adhere to etiquette manuals. For my part I find the whole exercise somewhat outmoded and affected. And if someone treats me differently as a result then perhaps they've discarded the very point of politesse. Of course this is simply my opinion.

 

That said I'm close to turning a difference of opinion into an argument. I'll leave it there and offer a hand for the shaking.

[ralphawilson]

In olden days two-sided writing was looked on as quite uninviting,

Now, heaven knows, anything goes!

 

Ralph, I almost fell off the couch laughing at this... especially since I'm now deeply ensconced in "musical season."

You're just lucky you didn't have to hear me sing it!

[Dave S]

I stupidly wrote a letter last week on 32lb paper and it hadn't even occurred to me that I should write on the back. Would have saved me postage! Set in my ways, I guess.

[ZeissIkon]

Another consideration with not writing on the back of letter paper is that some letter papers have different finishes on the two sides -- I have some paper here that's sold for computer printed resumés, which is grossly unfriendly to fountain pens on the rough side, but not at all bad on the smoother side. Sizing can vary from one side to the other, too, and finish and sizing have a big influence on how fountain pen friendly a sheet is.

 

That said, it costs one sheet to test if the paper behaves as well on one side as the other -- and it's worth doing to save international postage, as long as both sides are legible. BTW, I've seen an example of a single sheet and inside of envelope that had a handwritten letter comprising almost 20,000 words -- if your writing isn't as visible on the back as the front, nothing you're likely to do with writing on both sides will compare to that for straining the reader's eyes.

[CCMphysician]

To be blunt, some of these rules as to what is, and is not, acceptable seem appalingly sniffy.

 

...

 

Surely it's better to enjoy polite correspondence rather than to peer down the entire length of one's nose at the 'wrong sort' of letter-writing.

 

You can do what you like of course. It is helpful to know the rules though, so when you get treated differently, you know why.

 

"The rules"? Is there a current body that sets them, or are we talking about a historical hand-me-down? Your rules, I contend. And perhaps those of people who read and adhere to etiquette manuals. For my part I find the whole exercise somewhat outmoded and affected. And if someone treats me differently as a result then perhaps they've discarded the very point of politesse. Of course this is simply my opinion.

 

That said I'm close to turning a difference of opinion into an argument. I'll leave it there and offer a hand for the shaking.

 

I wish you would argue, actually. Quite frankly, most of the etiquette I have ever been taught is from the Victorians, and while I strongly support tradition and proper behavior, much of what is taught seems quite dogmatic. It is ridiculous that etiquette for letter writing dictates that you only write on one side of the letter sheet when you could just as easily write twice as much on one. Much of the Victorian tradition seems to be based on putting on heirs. This goes back to the ink etiquette discussion where only black ink is permissible for correspondence (another rule I take issue with).

[Enai]

If the paper allows it, I don't see a problem with writing on both sides. I am scratching my head as to why that would be considered bad taste.

[SueEllen]

I love to spend money on stationery, envelopes, and postage. Truly-- sometimes I buy seemingly identical envelopes but with different color linings. The self-seal envelopes of G.Lalo differ from those on the gummed envelopes, so for many of the envelope colors I have both types. And I overpay for postage so everything coordinates.

However! If I have a lot to write on A-4 stationery, I will write on the back. Someone else on this forum described the fun of opening a C-6 envelope and finding A-4 stationery folded twice. True. So cool. C-6 is clearly a personal-correspondence size, and I prefer it to the longer envelope. Two pages of A-4 stuffed in a C-6 envelope make a pillow that struggles to stay sealed or retain its stamps... Most people that get a C-4 envelope from me know it's personal correspondence anyway, and will usually forgive the crosshatched both-sides writing.

[SueEllen]

I love to spend money on stationery, envelopes, and postage. Truly-- sometimes I buy seemingly identical envelopes but with different color linings. The self-seal envelopes of G.Lalo differ from those on the gummed envelopes, so for many of the envelope colors I have both types. And I overpay for postage so everything coordinates.

However! If I have a lot to write on A-4 stationery, I will write on the back. Someone else on this forum described the fun of opening a C-6 envelope and finding A-4 stationery folded twice. True. So cool. C-6 is clearly a personal-correspondence size, and I prefer it to the longer envelope. Two pages of A-4 stuffed in a C-6 envelope make a pillow that struggles to stay sealed or retain its stamps... Most people that get a C-6 envelope from me know it's personal correspondence anyway, and will usually forgive the crosshatched both-sides writing.

[SueEllen]

I love to spend money on stationery, envelopes, and postage. Truly-- sometimes I buy seemingly identical envelopes but with different color linings. The self-seal envelopes of G.Lalo differ from those on the gummed envelopes, so for many of the envelope colors I have both types. And I overpay for postage so everything coordinates.

However! If I have a lot to write on A-4 stationery, I will write on the back. Someone else on this forum described the fun of opening a C-6 envelope and finding A-4 stationery folded twice. True. So cool. C-6 is clearly a personal-correspondence size, and I prefer it to the longer envelope. Two pages of A-4 stuffed in a C-6 envelope make a pillow that struggles to stay sealed or retain its stamps... Most people that get a C-6 envelope from me know it's personal correspondence anyway, and will usually forgive the crosshatched both-sides writing.

 

Arrrgh! typo. tried to correct and re-posted instead.

[Crim]

Sorry I can't multiquote!

 

Chemyst:

 

It's not just the price, it's having it shipped to China. I wouldn't call 15$ for 50 sheets dirt cheap either. I can get 100 sheets of nice paper (by chinese standards) for 1$ or so. If I go for cheaper paper I can get more for less. I'm also assuming that you could get a lot more paper for 15$ if you buy certain kinds of paper in the US as well. I don't really mind using the paper I'm using at the moment, however having something nice would be... nice... and since it's not something I can regularly indulge myself with (and in fact, all this paper is to be sent off to other people anyway) I don't see too much harm in using it to it's fullest.

 

Green Velvet:

 

Ah, nice to see that kind of thinking. Honestly I'm pretty "American" as Chinese people might say. We do waste a lot compared to this country. Maybe it's the Chinese culture rubbing off on me, but it does make sense to get the most you can out of fine paper. Perhaps for a really, really special letter I wouldn't double side it, but seeing so many people here be ok with double siding puts me at ease. I think if I let anyone I work with know that I paid this much for paper and I'm only using half of it, they'd kill me!

 

Orangos:

 

Thanks for being on the "opposite side of the paper" (corny I know). Don't be too bothered though. People are entitled to think in their own ways. It's like Chem said, it's good to know the rules. Maybe the rules won't apply to everyone, but there might be instances where they matter to some people. People are raised with different sets of mannerisms and ettiquette (sp? I can't check). Like in the West, we might expect others to treat us to dinner on our birthday. In China, it's very rude for someone else to pay for dinner, other than the birthday person. Neither is really wrong, we just have different views on things. Likewise, I might not agree with some things regarding letter formality, but I have to accept that some people might find it a little inappropriate if I write them a letter using both sides of the paper with red ink on purple paper in a hello kitty envelope.

 

Zeiss:

 

Well currently I'm only looking at double siding Verde de France or Triomphe stationary since that's the only "premium" stuff I can really get. The printer paper here sucks from what I've found, and I'm not having anyone ship me printer paper... I'd rather go the extra mile and just get nicer letter paper =). And so far all my letters have cost the same amount of money whether it was 1 page or 7 pages. But that might also be because the paper is really thin... so if this stationary is heavier it might end up costing more if I use 7 pages. But yeah, with the other stuff I have I wouldn't double side it. It's so cheap there's really no need to. It just feathers a bit.

 

Thanks for everyone's opinions so far! One thing I wanted to add was another good reason, IMO, for double siding such nice paper is if you're using matching envelopes you might end up with less left over envelopes. Well in my case it's not easy to just go out and buy another tablet to use with my left over envelopes, so I'll probably end up with extra envelopes lying around since my letters usually take up 4+ pages. I ended up getting both Verge de France and Triomphe 5x8 tablets and envelopes. I'll try them both out and see which I like best. I think I'm going to like the Triomphe for just normal letter writing, and the G.Lalo for very special things, but I'm only assuming that since the G.Lalo costs more (so hopefully it IS nice enough to justify that extra bit of cash needed).

[CCMphysician]

I am in the same boat as you. The thought of paying five dollars per letter for stationery makes me cringe. I think I am going to order the Triomphe 5x8 tablets though. It seems like a decent deal (at least it's as low of a price I will find palatable).

[orangos]

If Triomphe paper is half as nice as Vergé de France, you're onto a good thing. It might even be easier to write on because VdF's laid surface catches a bit on some of my fine nibs.

[HDoug]

Carrie, that cross-hatched letter is quite interesting. The person had a very regular hand in terms of slant and spacing.

 

Anyway, I always only write on one side, but I receive letters written on both sides and that's fine with me. I think it's one of those things that is completely up to you.

 

Doug

[Carrie]

Carrie, that cross-hatched letter is quite interesting. The person had a very regular hand in terms of slant and spacing.

 

 

Robert at that age (20 and just starting the Grand Tour) had a wonderfully neat hand and also wrote out copies of all the letters he sent home in his journal. His writing stayed neat throughout his life, just not quite as regular as it was in his youth. His mother was a bit different, still readable, but she fully admits in a number of letters to being a scribbler. Robert's son, well, no-one could ever claim he had a good copperplate hand. I'm very thankful he never crossed his letters when he was writing to his wife during a visit to the States. I honestly couldn't read those letters straight off I had to take the time to transcribe them to actually understand what he was saying.

 

In terms of rules of etiquette, when was it decided that it was deemed offensive to write on the reverse of a paper? I'm guessing Edwardian or later. Certainly not a Victorian thing.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Carrie

[CCMphysician]

Carrie, that cross-hatched letter is quite interesting.  The person had a very regular hand in terms of slant and spacing.

 

 

Robert at that age (20 and just starting the Grand Tour) had a wonderfully neat hand and also wrote out copies of all the letters he sent home in his journal. His writing stayed neat throughout his life, just not quite as regular as it was in his youth. His mother was a bit different, still readable, but she fully admits in a number of letters to being a scribbler. Robert's son, well, no-one could ever claim he had a good copperplate hand. I'm very thankful he never crossed his letters when he was writing to his wife during a visit to the States. I honestly couldn't read those letters straight off I had to take the time to transcribe them to actually understand what he was saying.

 

In terms of rules of etiquette, when was it decided that it was deemed offensive to write on the reverse of a paper? I'm guessing Edwardian or later. Certainly not a Victorian thing.

 

I am not sure when it was started, but it was certainly maintained through the Victorian period and today.

[tfwall]

To be blunt, some of these rules as to what is, and is not, acceptable seem appalingly sniffy.

 

...

 

Surely it's better to enjoy polite correspondence rather than to peer down the entire length of one's nose at the 'wrong sort' of letter-writing.

 

You can do what you like of course. It is helpful to know the rules though, so when you get treated differently, you know why.

 

"The rules"? Is there a current body that sets them, or are we talking about a historical hand-me-down? Your rules, I contend. And perhaps those of people who read and adhere to etiquette manuals. For my part I find the whole exercise somewhat outmoded and affected. And if someone treats me differently as a result then perhaps they've discarded the very point of politesse. Of course this is simply my opinion.

 

That said I'm close to turning a difference of opinion into an argument. I'll leave it there and offer a hand for the shaking.

 

 

The current body of them, which has changed very little in over a hundred years.

 

Certainly you can disregard them and I'm sure everyone will be very "polite" to you. The way people don't mention choice of wardrobe to the poor lad who turns up at a wedding in slacks and and a sport shirt, when everyone else is in morning dress.

 

However, when you don't follow the proper conventions, conclusions are drawn. These range along the lines of:

*Clueless fool who doesn't understand the rules, to

*Child or imbecile who can't be expected to follow the conventions, to

*Poseur who buys expensive items but whose working class roots keep showing and doesn't have the breeding.

 

Now, I can't speak for the OP's culture, but the last choice is the one I think will be the mostly likely in the West. People will see the expensive paper and the sheer writing of a letter as being retrograde for the sake of being retrograde as pretentious posing, once they see the writer is completely out of touch with proper etiquette and can't possibly be of the type you uses such things as a matter of course. Dependent of course on the class of the recipient. Prole hipsters would probably enjoy getting such a shoddily assembled letter for the irony of it, while others may miss the subtle cues that the letter is poorly done. The writing class however will notice straight off and draw conclusions.

 

 

[tfwall]

Chemyst:

 

It's not just the price, it's having it shipped to China. I wouldn't call 15$ for 50 sheets dirt cheap either. I can get 100 sheets of nice paper (by chinese standards) for 1$ or so. If I go for cheaper paper I can get more for less. I'm also assuming that you could get a lot more paper for 15$ if you buy certain kinds of paper in the US as well.

 

They run around $12 for 25 stateside. So, about $0.50/envelope.

 

Proper stationery envelopes to match my current lot cost me about $1.75/envelope for the unlined ones and nearly $3.25/envelope for the lined ones.

 

So, G. Lalo are pretty much the best deal going, especially for tissue paper lined envelopes. Nearly an order of magnitude less than proper envelopes: dirt cheap.

 

Certainly you can pick up a box of cheap mass market envelopes for around $0.05/envelope, but then it won't be fountain pen friendly or very nice. Good perhaps for use with a Bic ballpoint.

[English John]

Some interesting history in this thread, thank you for sharing this.

However, I write regularly to a number of people and we all vary.

 

I use Conqueror or Clairefontaine paper mostly , write on both sides , using envelopes from the office

Another uses Crown Mill on both sides with matching envelopes.

Another uses Conqueror on one side with matching envelopes, plus a wax seal

Another uses lined paper out of a pad , one side , tiny envelope.

Etc,

 

So all are different....but, all the letters are a pleasure to write, and delightful to receive, regardless of method or materials.

 

Receiving letters brightens up everyones day

 

The best one I received on Monday was from my Daughter who wrote on a post it asking that I pick up an advent calender in my lunch hour. She had put it in my shoe so I didn't forget when I went to work ! It didn't follow any conventions , but it was in her best joined up writing !

John

[orangos]

Certainly you can disregard them and I'm sure everyone will be very "polite" to you. The way people don't mention choice of wardrobe to the poor lad who turns up at a wedding in slacks and and a sport shirt, when everyone else is in morning dress.

 

However, when you don't follow the proper conventions, conclusions are drawn. These range along the lines of:

*Clueless fool who doesn't understand the rules, to

*Child or imbecile who can't be expected to follow the conventions, to

*Poseur who buys expensive items but whose working class roots keep showing and doesn't have the breeding.

 

Now, I can't speak for the OP's culture, but the last choice is the one I think will be the mostly likely in the West. People will see the expensive paper and the sheer writing of a letter as being retrograde for the sake of being retrograde as pretentious posing, once they see the writer is completely out of touch with proper etiquette and can't possibly be of the type you uses such things as a matter of course. Dependent of course on the class of the recipient. Prole hipsters would probably enjoy getting such a shoddily assembled letter for the irony of it, while others may miss the subtle cues that the letter is poorly done. The writing class however will notice straight off and draw conclusions.

 

What a shallow, airless world these people of yours must inhabit. If someone jumped to even one of those conclusions based on a duplex handwritten letter, I shudder to think what else might lurk beneath their surface. And I would avoid them wherever possible.

 

That being said, I can see the point in convention. As a typesetter I have to follow a great many. Many of these are far older than your hundred-year yardstick. But these conventions arose from practical considerations: readability or historical compromises between technology and materials. They carry no moral force whatsoever. I see correspondence in the same way. And just as the OP mentioned, Hello Kitty stationery would be inappropriate in many circumstances. Agreed. I pay a premium for well-printed stationery on beautiful stock for my business, and write to friends on the better Lalo paper with matching envelopes. But those are aesthetic choices. If someone replied on less expensive stock, I would prefer to assume a 'bad stationery' day than to exhibit the disgusting arrogance of speculation, public or private, on their class origins or any other such 'failing'.

 

Your choice of words is revealing: 'imbecile', 'clueless fool', 'poseur...working class roots', 'prole hipster'. In my opinion they demonstrate a deeply unpleasant set of prejudices. On that basis I will leave this conversation to its own devices, and you to yours.

Edited December 2, 2009 by orangos