Lubing The Piston Of My 149

[hari317]

You have understood the nomenclature correctly. Th nib unit has three parts: nib, feed and the "feeder case".

 

but am I looking at the case with the threads at bottom of the nib/feed unit which should not have been removed in that photo?

 

My pen in that photo had developed a leak due to the factory sealant having given away. Hence the feeder case was removed and resealed by me.

 

If so, I am not understanding why some posters have said they remove that nib/feed unit frequently to more thoroughly clean it. Are they being reckless and lucky?

 

It is very easy, but also risky to remove the feeder case. you take this risk only when it is warranted. however YMMV.

Edited March 30, 2011 by hari317

[talkinghead]

Thanks for all your wonderful advice, but I still have the same question about nomenclature. In the photo from my last post, is nib/feed unit what you are saying should not be removed unless necessary? I had thought removing that with the tool shown was relatively easy...so maybe you mean some other disassembly. Again, I don't know all the terms for the parts, but am I looking at the case with the threads at bottom of the nib/feed unit which should not have been removed in that photo? If so, I am not understanding why some posters have said they remove that nib/feed unit frequently to more thoroughly clean it. Are they being reckless and lucky?

 

Sam,

 

What you see in this picture:

 

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii197/hari317/MB146/IMG_3213.jpg

 

is the nib and feed (under the nib) in place in the feeder case/collar. The nib and feed are friction fit into this feeder case/collar like any other pen's nib and feed are fit into sections. What they are saying, is that you really should't unscrew this feeder case unless you really need to (and again "really need to" is relative!). What Hari is saying is that if you need to separate the nib and feed, you should do so by leaving the feeder case/collar intact on/in the barrel, and from the top of the barrel (after piston mechanism removal), use a long knock out rod and a knock out block to knock the nib and feed from this collar.

 

Hope that is as clear as mud!!

 

Rick

 

Edit...sorry Hari you beat me to it!!

Edited March 30, 2011 by talkinghead

[Pen Nut]

Thanks for all your wonderful advice, but I still have the same question about nomenclature. In the photo from my last post, is nib/feed unit what you are saying should not be removed unless necessary? I had thought removing that with the tool shown was relatively easy...so maybe you mean some other disassembly. Again, I don't know all the terms for the parts, but am I looking at the case with the threads at bottom of the nib/feed unit which should not have been removed in that photo? If so, I am not understanding why some posters have said they remove that nib/feed unit frequently to more thoroughly clean it. Are they being reckless and lucky?

 

 

Remove nib unit to re seal if leaky yes but to just clean would be a bit of overkill in my opinion. Take your time & seek advice, which you have, and I am sure you will be ok and find it very rewarding.

[draeroheli]

Hello Sam,

 

That is correct . Nib and Feeder are in the Housing Collar. (The picture of Hari's post using Fountainble tool).

 

The whole complete unit (Nib & Feeder in a Housing Unit) which is screwed into the barrel.

 

Vintage MB used Silicone rubber sealant around that complete unit to prevent any ink leak because during those olden days, threads were not 100% precision fit and ink would leak.

 

Because of that sealant, it is difficult to remove the complete unit from the barrel. If possible, try not to remove the complete unit from the barrel for a vintage model. You can work through the filler cone entrance at the end of the pen.

 

Modern ones are 100% precision fit and no special sealant is needed in most pens. Easy to remove the whole unit out of the barrel and easy to screw the complete unit back into the barrel.

 

You need a special Knock out unit to remove the nib and feeder from the Housing collar unit, if you want to take the nib out and do some adjustment to the actual nib.

 

For normal servicing of your pen, you do not need to touch the front end of the pen to avoid any damage to the barrel of the pen. You can work through the rear end hole of the pen.

 

Occasionally, it is not sufficient and you may have to take out the front unit which you have shown on your photo. Ultra sound Cleaning is more effective if you put that combine Unit into the US sink without the barrel because the barrel is tight squeezing the upper end of the feeder preventing any dried residue to come loose,(for stubborn ink flow problem from dried ink residue in the feeder channel).

 

May I ask you whether do you really need to service the pen by yourself? Or perhaps, you are like me playing with these pens as a hobby!

 

Cheers!

 

Htin

Edited March 30, 2011 by draeroheli

[SamCapote]

I am so glad I am asking about all these things beforehand, because I did not understand the sensible cautions about removing the nib/feed/housing collar (aka "feeder case"), and the risk it poses to cracking the section. I got all the tools for new/old 146 & 149 in case they are no longer made at some point (3 front nib/feed removers, two piston removers). I have two 149's and the set of 8 demonstrator 146 in case I got from kraz.

 

I do not have any problems with leaking or cracks at the section, but rather had been under the impression from various other posts that using the fountainbel tool shown in photo a few posts back (from hari's thread) with removed nib/feed/case was simple to do, and if many were removing simply to better clean the nib & feed, that it must carry little risk. I don't know why I would need to remove the nib/feed, and do not have the knock-out block that I see at Tryphon's. I'm assuming one of these holes are large enough to fit the large 149 nib, and those metal rods long enough to tap out the feed from inside after the piston assembly is removed? I wonder if I should buy one of those also just to have in the event that Tryphon closes up?

 

http://www.tryphon.it/ko.jpg

The only minor problem I do have in the 149 bought from Daniele is that the piston filler is too stiff/hard to rotate. I don't know what most typically makes it so hard to turn, but it is stiff enough that I am worried that I will break the rod over time the way it is now. I was assuming this was caused by the elastomer piston translucent white rubber dragging on the inside and needing lubrication, but maybe the spiral plastic threads of the piston rod accumulate dirt and causing the stiffness. I was puzzled that some have said no lubrication is needed of the elastomer seal, so I guess a lack of seal lubrication is not the issue?

 

This is all just being approached as a hobbyist, and I am also pretty handy with a lot of tools and fine/detailed work. Thanks again for helping sort all these things out.

[draeroheli]

Hi Sam,

 

Since you have a selection of MB pens and you have already had several tools and you will be better of by having Tryphon Knocking block as well to complete the required tool for full servicing and nib adjusting. Their largest hole is not big enough for any of the MB146 and MB 149.

You will have to order extra adapters from Francis Goosen of Fountainble for 146 and 149. Please contact Francis.

I am waiting one more tool from Penboard.De and once it has arrived, I will post the topic for the forum.

 

Because of friction tight fit for the Nib & Feeder into the Housing unit, you will have to warm up the Housing Unit when you put the nib & feeder back into the housing.

 

Glad to meet you on this forum as we have a common interest in servicing MB pens as our hobby.

 

Wish you all the best.

 

Htin

[hari317]

dear Htin, I have the tryphon block and the holes are big enough to cater for knocking out the 149 and 146 nibs. In Fact , the block can handle nibs much bigger than the 149. The stock rods are of sufficient length to knock out the nibs even through the barrel. the fountainbel adaptor is needed only when you are knocking out the nibs from the hidden feeder case type nib unit. That too when the nib unit is out of the pen. if you ask fountainbel he will advise you too to leave the feeder case alone and directly knock the nib and feed out like a friction fit pen.

 

@Sam, your piston stiffness problem will be solved by appling a thin layer of lube at the elastomer seal lips. You have the wrench, go ahead and fix your pen. While you have the pen open, you can appreciate the build quality of the 149. BTW your pen has the ebonite feed or plastic feed? If ebonite feed, then you can also inspect the state of cleanliness of the air channel, peer through the barrel end against strong light. Enjoy!

[SamCapote]

I'm so happy. With all of your help & guides, and of course, fontainbel's wonderful piston remover tool, I did go ahead with the 149, cleaning and lubing the piston seal outer edge, upper piston cap threads, and spiral plastic rod. I think most of the stiffness was the elastomer seal resistance not having any lube against inside of barrel. With your great writeup, hari, (post #26) I was able to get the piston position set to that optimal position, within 5 minutes.

 

I did use the TWSBI silicone oil. The piston now moves up and down like a dream. The small details, precision tolerances, and piston movement mechanism are inspiring. I now understand about knocking out the nib/feed from the back end after viewing down inside with a flashlight. That's great news on the knock-out block. I am going to order one from Giovanni.

 

Like the TWSBI, I find so much more enjoyment comes from a pen when you are able to make some minor adjustments and appreciating the inner workings. For others reading this, I would consider doing this with this thread's guide a simple job. I had a shrink-wrap heat gun handy, but didn't need to use heat to loosen with fountainbel's wrench. I held the wrench stationary like Hari said, it was about as much force as I would have expected. Looking down the pen from back to front, the wrench turns counter-clockwise to loosen (or holding the wrench still, the pen body turns clockwise against the wrench).

 

I filled it with some MB Irish Green to celebrate. :roflmho:

 

Thanks to all of you again!!!

[draeroheli]

dear Htin, I have the tryphon block and the holes are big enough to cater for knocking out the 149 and 146 nibs. In Fact , the block can handle nibs much bigger than the 149. The stock rods are of sufficient length to knock out the nibs even through the barrel. the fountainbel adapter is needed only when you are knocking out the nibs from the hidden feeder case type nib unit. That too when the nib unit is out of the pen. if you ask fountainbel he will advise you too to leave the feeder case alone and directly knock the nib and feed out like a friction fit pen.

 

Dear Hari,

 

Your knocking block must be different from mine or we are talking the same subject in different ways!. I already have those adapter collars from Francis. He made it especially for me to remove the Nib/ Feeder from the Housing Case. Not directly from the Barrel as you suggested.

 

I am waiting for one more tool from Penboard.de. It should arrive at any time this week. I will post all the photos on the forum with a new thread .I told Francis that I would advertise his new adapter 146 & 149 collars on the Forum so that he could recover the initial loss of making a new collar for me.

 

How do you put the nib/feeder back into the Feeder case which is still in the barrel because it is a friction tight fit , normally the case has to be warm up gently and just pushing the nib/feeder back into the housing case is not good enough to get the correct length or not? Tail end of the Nib could be easily twisted if we have to use some force.

 

Here is the picture of the barrel with the feeder case is still inside and nib& feeder are out. Previous owner of this pen had taken out the Nib/feeder directly from the barrel like what you said.

 

 

When my advertisement post for Francis is published on the Forum, please contribute your thoughts and idea.. These collars are new and Francis has never made it before and nobody has ever seen them before. He sent me some new drawings of his idea and eventually decided to make a collar rather than making a new metal block to keep the cost down. These adapter collars can be used on either Tryphon from Florida or Wood burn from Canada for vintage as well as modern 146 and 149. He can make these adapter collars for 144 and any other model.

 

Cheers and wish you the very best,

 

Htin

Edited March 31, 2011 by draeroheli

[draeroheli]

"Here is the e mail from Francis during the process of finding the best way to service our MB pens including the removal of nib/feeder from the housing unit. I am publishing this e mail in the best interest of promoting our hobby as well as tools suppliers."

 

Dear Htin,

 

You could use the Tryphon nib block for knocking the feed trough when the nib unit is still mounted (screwn) in the section.

 

In this situation the diameter step between the " nib wing width " and the section front diameter is large enough to provide a good back-up

 

Only drawbacks are the knocking forces will react on the threads, and one has to screw the threaded housing out separately.

 

The Tryphon block does however NOT allow to knock the nib/feed out from a disassembled nib unit.

 

Reason being the collar diameter of the nib bushing is (nearly) identical to the nib's wing width diameter.

 

So when introducing the nib though the narrowest nib block hole the bushing will also fell through. (see dimensions on sketch)

 

The attached (rough) sketch shows a dedicated MB nib block which allows knocking out the nib/feed directly from the disassembled nib unit.

 

I took and introduced the dimensions from a vintage MB146 for reference.

 

Note one could eventually use the Tryphon nib block when making additional special slotted washers for the different MB sizes;

 

The 2 pictures I've added show the nib re-assembling unit.

 

As you can see the front of the nib is seated in a concave plastic seat, and the upper plastic block then clamps on the back of the feed/

 

Using a plastic hammer one then knocks the bushing over the nib and feed.

 

Note this is my own home made prototype, fully functional although esthetically not how it should be.

 

As for you question on the ex changeability, I don't think the housing and feed are made "paired", in my experience both parts are fully exchangeable

 

Best regards, Francis

 

The reason why we need an adapter collar for Tryphon and Woodburn. I trust Francis' judgment.I also asked Sylvia/Giovanni about their unit and she was not sure and said I might need an adapter for MB 149.

 

Best wishes,

 

Htin

Edited March 31, 2011 by draeroheli

[SamCapote]

I also got a PM reply from Francis that provides useful information, but am awaiting his permission before posting what he actually said about removing nib/feed/case with his tools. One significant thing I feel better about is that he does use his front nib removal tool to remove the nib unit (nib/feed/holder case) for better cleaning in an ultrasound...sometimes even soaking the entire nib/feed/case unit in 10% ammonia solution. He was not keen on the idea of knocking the nib/feed out from the back side once piston filler was removed.

 

Htin, you may want to put the [ quote ] tags around that last post to identify the message from Francis, as I was confused that you were saying all that yourself.

[hari317]

I am certainly interested to hear what Francis has to say in this matter.

[draeroheli]

I also got a PM reply from Francis that provides useful information, but am awaiting his permission before posting what he actually said about removing nib/feed/case with his tools. One significant thing I feel better about is that he does use his front nib removal tool to remove the nib unit (nib/feed/holder case) for better cleaning in an ultrasound...sometimes even soaking the entire nib/feed/case unit in 10% ammonia solution. He was not keen on the idea of knocking the nib/feed out from the back side once piston filler was removed.

 

Htin, you may want to put the [ quote ] tags around that last post to identify the message from Francis, as I was confused that you were saying all that yourself.

 

 

Thank you my friend. I have corrected now. I published this e mail for the best interest of our hobby as well as the best interest of Francis. He is the great man with years of experience under his belt and able to produce many precision tools for our hobby and we need people like Francis as well as Giovanni and Sylvia from Tryphon as well as Tom from Penboard.de for our hobby among many others from this Forum. Otherwise we will have to rely on MB.

 

Glad that you have sorted out your pen. You do not need to put that oil very often to your Piston, not even once a year. Oil and ink do not like each other and your pen could skip if there is too much oil. It is the dried ink stuck between the piston lip and the barrel wall which causes the lip to give away, and ink leaks towards the knob. I keep my black carbon connecting rod clean. MB used some machinery oil on the rod, not just to lubricate but also to prevent drastic oil leak toward the filler knob. All you have to do is to keep an eye on the ink window for any sign of initial leak.

 

Cheers,

Htin

Edited March 31, 2011 by draeroheli

[SamCapote]

That was fast. Francis just responded back with more information, and that he was OK with my posting his responses. I will include my PM to him. I corrected a few typos, and added carriage returns for readability.

 

Francis, I hope you are continuing to do well.

 

I have been posting in this thread about needing to remove and lubricate the piston of a recent 149 I got. So far, I have not yet used the tools I got from you, but I'm sure I will do fine. The corks you sent me, are those intended to be used in the event that the elastomer piston seal breaks down? I was wondering if the cork can hold up to lots of back and forth filling--without crumbling.

 

In some of these posts, people are warning to avoid removing the front nib/feed/case with the tools I got from you, for fear of cracking the section. Some of them recommend instead to remove the piston filler and use a knock out block to pop out the nib and feed for cleaning (just prior to this post). I thought I would see if you agree, and also now wondering if I should get the knock out adapter for the Tryphon block/rods that draeroheli recommends in that recent post?

 

Thanks for any words of experience.

 

Hi,

 

I don't recall in sending you extra corks, but I've experienced a cork -well soaked in a beeswax/ liquid paraffin solution - creates less friction as the modern elastomer seals.

 

I never experienced section cracks when removing the nib unit from the pen, but logically I can only speak for myself.

 

Knocking out the nib/feed through the barrel from the filling knob side looks difficult, if not impossible to me.

 

The cork or elastomer piston seal is larger in diameter and has to be disassembled from the section side first, before the filler unit can be screwed out. So one has always to remove the section first.

 

One can surely knock the nib/feed through once the section is disassembled, but only when effectively needed! Re-assembling the nib and feed is not always easy, specially on vintage pens.

 

I normally remove the nib unit and clean it assembled in my Ultrasonic cleaner. Sometimes - when there is lots of crusted ink remains- I soak the nib unit first in a 10% ammonia water solution overnight, and then pass it though the US cleaner.

 

Remember the main purpose of screw in nib unit is providing easy exchange of assembled nib units. If you really need to knock out the nibs and feeds from their screw in housing, you could consider buying the knock-out adaptors I make.

 

Alternatively you could leave the nib unit screwn in the section and knock the nib/feed through directly on a knock-out block.

 

Best regards, Francis

 

OK, I think that answers all my questions. I really have no need to take apart the actual nib & feed out separately, but if you read that thread, Hari317 & Draeroheli are both of the opinion that removing the entire front nib/feed/case with your tools is only to be done if you have a leak at the section because of the risk you may crack the threads/section. You are not the only one who says they remove the entire nib unit with your nib tool to clean it as an intact unit in an ultrasound cleaner. I also understand the main reason for the tool is to provide an easy exchange of assembled nib units. I think I will follow your guidance.

 

Do you mind if I post what you said above into that thread (or you could perhaps comment on the issue of using your tool for removing nib unit for cleaning)?

 

Sincerely,

Sam

 

Sam,

 

Another important fact I forgot to mention is that removing the section from the barrel create more risks for barrel entry cracks due to the thin remaining wall between the bottom diameters of the external and internal threads.

 

This is - at least in my opinion - much more risky is the risk for cracking the section when screwing the nib unit out. Personally I feel much more at ease when removing the nib unit

 

Please feel free to post if you like.

 

Regards, Francis

 

Now, one other issue in this thread besides relevant topical input from Francis which starts at post #35 in this thread....there is also a discussion that the (TWSBI) silicone oil should not be used on the MB piston elastomer seal because it may be made of silicone, and/or may cause micro fractures over time of the pen barrel. Reportedly vaseline is the other recommendation. Now I'm wondering if I should take my piston back out, and clean off the TWSBI oil, and do it again with vaseline???

[hari317]

Sam, first of all i would like to say that the 149 has had several itrerations over the years. Each version has its own intricacies. you should read the dating the 149 thread and the definitive Barry Gabay article if not read already.

 

Francis is the expert and I consider him my guru.

 

The cork or elastomer piston seal is larger in diameter and has to be disassembled from the section side first, before the filler unit can be screwed out. So one has always to remove the section first.

 

wrt to Francis's PM, he is referring to the celluloid era 14xs, as far as I can understand. Only on these pens do you remove the section to access the cork seal, once the cork is off, you can unscrew the filler from the rear.

 

The following followup advise also pertains to the celluloid pens as far as I understand:

 

Another important fact I forgot to mention is that removing the section from the barrel create more risks for barrel entry cracks due to the thin remaining wall between the bottom diameters of the external and internal threads.

 

This is - at least in my opinion - much more risky is the risk for cracking the section when screwing the nib unit out. Personally I feel much more at ease when removing the nib unit

 

The issue with seperating the feeder case from the pen in the two piece resin era 149s is not specific with using Francis's tools. The risk is there when using any tool for this purpose.

Edited March 31, 2011 by hari317

[SamCapote]

Sam, first of all i would like to say that the 149 has had several itrerations over the years. Each version has its own intricacies. you should read the dating the 149 thread and the definitive Barry Gabay article if not read already.

 

Francis is the expert and I consider him my guru.

 

The cork or elastomer piston seal is larger in diameter and has to be disassembled from the section side first, before the filler unit can be screwed out. So one has always to remove the section first.

 

wrt to Francis's PM, he is referring to the celluloid era 14xs, as far as I can understand. Only on these pens do you remove the section to access the cork seal, once the cork is off, you can unscrew the filler from the rear.

 

The following followup advise also pertains to the celluloid pens as far as I understand:

 

Another important fact I forgot to mention is that removing the section from the barrel create more risks for barrel entry cracks due to the thin remaining wall between the bottom diameters of the external and internal threads.

 

This is - at least in my opinion - much more risky is the risk for cracking the section when screwing the nib unit out. Personally I feel much more at ease when removing the nib unit

 

The issue with seperating the feeder case from the pen in the two piece resin era 149s is not specific with using Francis's tools. The risk is there when using any tool for this purpose.

 

Thanks for that additional feedback, honestly I was confused by what he meant regarding the section removal to access the seal.

 

Can you give any feedback on the controversy raised starting with post #15 in that other thread about using/not using silicone oil for lubing the elastomere piston seal?

 

Thanks!

[hari317]

Can you give any feedback on the controversy raised starting with post #15 in that other thread about using/not using silicone oil for lubing the elastomere piston seal?

 

 

The following links may be useful:

 

link1 link2 link3

 

I do not know the answer. If anyone has access to the MB service manual(If there is one), it will be definitive. I believe Maxpens and Tom W., both have great insight into MB.

 

However IME, having used both Vasline and Dow corning High Vac Silicone grease, both have caused no harm yet to my pens(more than a year). I do get a smoother piston action when I use the silicone grease.

[fountainbel]

Hi all,

Sorry for the confusion I've caused on the need to remove of the piston seal from the section side proir to dis assemble the piston mechanism.

Hari is completely right, this only counts for the vintage telescopic pens.

Same for the risks of cracking the weak barrel entry, also this risk is inherent to the vintage versions

Being a big fan of these vintage telescopic piston fillers ,I tend to forget there are other versions.....

Very happy Hari put things right, thanks Hari !

Francis

[SamCapote]

Can you give any feedback on the controversy raised starting with post #15 in that other thread about using/not using silicone oil for lubing the elastomere piston seal?

 

 

The following links may be useful:

 

link1 link2 link3

 

I do not know the answer. If anyone has access to the MB service manual(If there is one), it will be definitive. I believe Maxpens and Tom W., both have great insight into MB.

 

However IME, having used both Vasline and Dow corning High Vac Silicone grease, both have caused no harm yet to my pens(more than a year). I do get a smoother piston action when I use the silicone grease.

 

LOL! Well that cleared things up....about as clear as mud! Nothing worse than when experts are divided.

[larsbj]

I'm very greatful for hari317's post w/photos of the lubing of the 149. After having use far to long a time to empty my 149 i found that the piston was very reluctant to move up/down. I flushed the pen with luke-warm soap water, but for som odd reason the barrel was easy to flush but became even more reluctant to fill. I can think of no logical reason for this, but maybe some of the other contributers can?

 

Anyway, afraid to damage the machanism I decided to disassemble it and came across this excellent thread which proved most helpful!! I have now dissasembled it, are ready to lube it (using TWSBI silicone oil) and assemble it. I feel quite confident it will run OK, and am actually very proud (!!!) as this is my first (almost complede) teardown

 

So, lots of thanks for this exellent thread!!!

 

Regards,

LBj

-- above the arctic circle