Michael Sull Dvd Vs. Iampeth Videos?

[indigirl]

Hi everybody, I've been lurking around reading old threads on this board & am so impressed with everybody's beautiful handwriting in so many styles!

 

I have a question for all you Spencerian folks: I am getting ready to order Michael Sull's book & started to wonder how useful the DVD might be? I have barely scratched the surface of IAMPETH's videos so I don't know if everything I need is all there &/or to what degree the Sull DVD might be redundant. Has anybody used the DVD to learn from, & could you give a review of it?

 

Also Bill Kemp sometimes teaches a weekend Spencerian workshop in my area, has anybody taken that from him & should I save my money for that instead of the DVD? Is Spencerian the kind of thing where in-person instruction is really a lot better than watching a DVD? I'm really starting from scratch, in case you can't tell

 

Thanks for all advice...

[msacco]

As someone who has been at OP/Spencerian for a year or so now, I 'll give you my opinion for what it's worth.

I have Sull's "kit" including book. Not the video though. The book is very nice and so are Mike's practice sheets.

But I didn't use them very long. I personally feel the TAmblyn book "Home penmanship instructor" available from Ziller is better. Tamblyn's vintage approach is pretty solid and his movement drills are excellent. I then went to Zaner and Blosers "Lessons is Ornamental Penmanship (OP). These last two books combined are really all you need for OP/Spencerian. Tamblyn's is available as a reprint the Z&B book is on Imapeth or through ABEbooks if currently available.

 

As for video. Mike's work is truly beautiful, but he does not use "controlled speed" as the Masters had done. His pens moves very slowly and I personally cannot do OP that way. The vintage book will teach you controlled speed but it will take a long time and tons of practice to get smooth curves as seen in my signature on this board.

 

A good video comparison of the two approaches can be seen on Iammpeth you tube videos. Look for the Sull video of him doing OP/Spencerian then look up Del Tysdal doing OP. You will see the difference in approach immediately.

I am being instructed by Del as he was the last pupil of W.C. Brownfeld who in turn was the last pupil of Louis Madarasz.

 

Mike S.

Edited September 18, 2009 by msacco

[Anne-Sophie]

As a beginner, I think that using all the free resources that this forum has to offer first is a wise move.

 

We have a number of very very talented calligraphers on this forum who have been involved in the art of writing beautifully for many decades and are always willing to share their knowledge.

 

 

You can print out free guidelines, see lessons on utube and surf your way into knowledge without spending a dime for quite a long time.

 

 

I suggest attending the live workshop in your area, getting to know fellow calligraphers and spend time looking at their gears and get new toys for yourself if you wish.

 

 

I don't know anything about the teacher but google his name and calligraphy and there is bound to be comments about his workshops, somewhere.

[oceanaocean]

I am one for learning from an instructor, if you have the opportunity to study "hands on" I say DO IT! There is nothing like the real thing.

The best way I have ever learned anything is from a teacher in real life. Good luck, and let's see your script when you have started, and practiced.......

[indigirl]

Thank you everybody for the advice! So, back to IAMPETH while I ponder the Tamblyn book... & now to address the question of *when* I am realistically going to practice whatever I learn... when y'all were first learning did you work on it every single day?!

[msacco]

Thank you everybody for the advice! So, back to IAMPETH while I ponder the Tamblyn book... & now to address the question of *when* I am realistically going to practice whatever I learn... when y'all were first learning did you work on it every single day?!

 

 

I would say I've practiced just about everyday for the last year. There have been a few days here and there where I didn't write, but only a handful.

I'm still not where I'd like to be. It does take time but mileage varies.

 

Mike s.

[Anne-Sophie]

I see calligraphy and beautiful handwriting as an art to be practiced everyday.

 

I write everything in cursive, including forms, unless the specify that they want print (to which I comply while grumbling).

 

I use an inkroller for given out forms and my fountain pen for everyday writing.

 

I use the Copperplate letter forms as my everyday writing style but I use a round nibbed fountain pen (medium or bold).

 

 

If you want to reproduce the wide and thin lines of traditional copperplate, you will need a fountain pen or dip pen, or both, with flexible nibs.

 

I am not familiar with flex (flexible) nib pens but asking a question about them in the writing instrument subforum should bring flex pen enthusiasts out of the woodwork!

 

 

At the end of the page below, there are many free pdf files of various guidelines.

Print the ones you find attractive and start practicing with the fountain pens you have.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons.php

 

 

If time is limited, use the guidelines printed on fountain pen friendly copy paper to do most of your handwriting including classes, work, workshops, conferences, meetings, grocery lists...

 

 

I also do journaling in loose leaf paper printed with my choice of guideline.

I use plastic folders to keep the loose leaf paper and the written page together.

 

After a while I slip the written pages into sheet protectors and keep same year pages together into a binder.

 

At back to school or sales time, I stock up on 3 hole punched report poly report covers or the cardboard ones with picture of cute animals.

 

 

Sorry for the big post but I wanted to show that enjoying fountain pens, ink and calligraphy doesn't mean using costly things.

 

 

There are great flex vintage pens and modern or vintage round nib pens for any budget.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Anne-Sophie

[indigirl]

 

I use the Copperplate letter forms as my everyday writing style but I use a round nibbed fountain pen (medium or bold).

 

 

How do you get the correct angle w/ a normal pen? I thought an oblique nib holder was necessary, or at least strongly encouraged as being the right tool? Did you learn w/ the oblique & then translate what you knew to work w/ a straight pen? I would definitely prefer to use a fountain pen instead of a dip pen!

[msacco]

 

I use the Copperplate letter forms as my everyday writing style but I use a round nibbed fountain pen (medium or bold).

 

 

How do you get the correct angle w/ a normal pen? I thought an oblique nib holder was necessary, or at least strongly encouraged as being the right tool? Did you learn w/ the oblique & then translate what you knew to work w/ a straight pen? I would definitely prefer to use a fountain pen instead of a dip pen!

 

Unfortunately you will never be able to get the true hairline/shade contrast using a fountain pen. They're just not fine enough. Not even close if you're after a true Spencierian or OP look. Some people can use a straigt pen holder but it's harder to keep the shades clean that way. slant can be taken care by turning the paper but it's the shades that can suffer using a straight holder.

What's the problem with a dip pen. They are wonderful. Here's a shot of my Zanerian late 1800's holder.

 

Mike s.

 

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c117/msacco/zanerian.jpg

Edited September 24, 2009 by msacco

[indigirl]

Wow, that's beautiful! Much nicer than my budget plastic holder Thanks for the clarification Mike. It's not so much that I have a *problem* with dip pens, it's more that I like the convenience & portability of a fountain pen... probably the same way folks felt back in the day when the first fountain pens came around Anyway Anne-Sophie I would still love to see your writing... I have heard of someone in my neighborhood who can supposedly write Spencerian w/ a fountain pen, but haven't had a chance to meet her, or her writing either. I'm not sure how attached I am to true Spencerian, if I could learn to write something beautiful & Spencerianesque w/ a fountain pen that might make me just as happy, or maybe happier. But all of this is speculation right now since I've barely even started the rudiments of it... [insert eye-rolling face here... when *will* those emoticons come back? I miss them!]

 

 

I use the Copperplate letter forms as my everyday writing style but I use a round nibbed fountain pen (medium or bold).

 

 

How do you get the correct angle w/ a normal pen? I thought an oblique nib holder was necessary, or at least strongly encouraged as being the right tool? Did you learn w/ the oblique & then translate what you knew to work w/ a straight pen? I would definitely prefer to use a fountain pen instead of a dip pen!

 

Unfortunately you will never be able to get the true hairline/shade contrast using a fountain pen. They're just not fine enough. Not even close if you're after a true Spencierian or OP look. Some people can use a straigt pen holder but it's harder to keep the shades clean that way. slant can be taken care by turning the paper but it's the shades that can suffer using a straight holder.

What's the problem with a dip pen. They are wonderful. Here's a shot of my Zanerian late 1800's holder.

 

Mike s.

 

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c117/msacco/zanerian.jpg

[Greg D]

I have been practicing Spencerian for a few years now - having first learned using F.W. Tamblyn's Home Instructor in Penmanship, which has a section on Ornamental Penmanship. I also recently purchased Michael Sull's kit to broaden my learning and enhance my abilities. I would echo Mike's comments above to the effect that Tamblyn's book is better at laying a good foundation. I really like the material that I purchased from Michael Sull for the info on variations of letter forms but I don't think it would be as useful had I not learned muscular movement and controlled speed from Tamblyn's book.

 

Regarding which type of pen to use - I originally learned with a fountain pen because I liked the convenience of it versus a dip pen. I have tried using a dip pen with an obique holder as well as a straight holder and I still prefer using a fountain pen. I have a Pelikan M800 with a 14kt nib that John Mottishaw has modified to be XF and XFlexy that yields really nice results for envelopes and such. The variation is not quite what you would get with a dip pen but it is much more convenient.

 

Hope this helps.

 

GD~

 

 

I use the Copperplate letter forms as my everyday writing style but I use a round nibbed fountain pen (medium or bold).

 

 

How do you get the correct angle w/ a normal pen? I thought an oblique nib holder was necessary, or at least strongly encouraged as being the right tool? Did you learn w/ the oblique & then translate what you knew to work w/ a straight pen? I would definitely prefer to use a fountain pen instead of a dip pen!

[indigirl]

Thanks for the input, Greg! It's really interesting to find out about all the different approaches people are taking (or have taken) to learning & using Spencerian... I will probably go ahead & get the Tamblyn book & use my oblique holder until I manage to get my hands on a very flexy fountain pen. The pens I have right now are only semiflex, but I think they actually give me good practice to ease in to more flex. Anyway I am all ears to hear what more folks have to say on the subject, so please do chime in, y'all!

 

I have been practicing Spencerian for a few years now - having first learned using F.W. Tamblyn's Home Instructor in Penmanship, which has a section on Ornamental Penmanship. I also recently purchased Michael Sull's kit to broaden my learning and enhance my abilities. I would echo Mike's comments above to the effect that Tamblyn's book is better at laying a good foundation. I really like the material that I purchased from Michael Sull for the info on variations of letter forms but I don't think it would be as useful had I not learned muscular movement and controlled speed from Tamblyn's book.

 

Regarding which type of pen to use - I originally learned with a fountain pen because I liked the convenience of it versus a dip pen. I have tried using a dip pen with an obique holder as well as a straight holder and I still prefer using a fountain pen. I have a Pelikan M800 with a 14kt nib that John Mottishaw has modified to be XF and XFlexy that yields really nice results for envelopes and such. The variation is not quite what you would get with a dip pen but it is much more convenient.

 

Hope this helps.

 

GD~

 

 

I use the Copperplate letter forms as my everyday writing style but I use a round nibbed fountain pen (medium or bold).

 

 

How do you get the correct angle w/ a normal pen? I thought an oblique nib holder was necessary, or at least strongly encouraged as being the right tool? Did you learn w/ the oblique & then translate what you knew to work w/ a straight pen? I would definitely prefer to use a fountain pen instead of a dip pen!

[Anne-Sophie]

 

I use the Copperplate letter forms as my everyday writing style but I use a round nibbed fountain pen (medium or bold).

 

 

How do you get the correct angle w/ a normal pen? I thought an oblique nib holder was necessary, or at least strongly encouraged as being the right tool? Did you learn w/ the oblique & then translate what you knew to work w/ a straight pen? I would definitely prefer to use a fountain pen instead of a dip pen!

 

 

I should have said Copperplate like form, the cursive handwriting I learned in school.

 

It has no shade variation, the French handwriting form used with dip pens had variations but in the 50's and 60's when regular fountain pens and ballpoints became common, the shade variation was dropped.

 

Yet, it is cursive and looks a lot like the forms of Copperplate letters.