Chesterfield Ink to Diamine Cross-Reference

[radellaf]

Very helpful, thanks.

[radellaf]

Maybe it's the white balance, or maybe the ink isn't the same bottle-to-bottle, but I'm not seeing even a remote resemblance between C Antique Walnut and D Macassar (both bottles):

 

As for Fire Opal, I'm still going with the regular D Orange, but Blaze is so similar it's hard to say. A bit darker. D ink from samples.

As an example of how fine distinctions may be beyond ink batch color tolerances, I finally got a bottle of my favorite salmon orange, and it's less salmon. A little more Helianthus and the mix pretty much matches the bottle color.

I have a bottle of Majestic Blue on the way to see if my sample is true, as I find it a bit greener than what I can infer off reviews and comparisons, and far from a match with Antique Oxford. Getting that and Saddle Brown (I'll try it next to Mahogany) along with the two new Diamine colors (Oxford and Classic Green), plus (yay!) all six Cult Pens Dark exclusives.

FWIW, for inks that do look like a match, the idea of doing some amateur chromatography isn't a bad idea. I can do it for the ink pairs I have. I'm hoping you find Capri matches Royal Blue. I was dismissing Royal as the same as Pelikan and all the others but, no, it's much prettier IMHO. The $5/50mL sale is on again and I'm tempted. Also, I should add that there are no 25/50/100mL nalgene bottles: they're 30,60,120mL; so the ink is even a better deal than it seems. Mine have come, if not Noodler's full, above the shoulder and often up into the neck of the bottle.

[hazel]

That's really interesting. I didn't do swatches like that. I wanted to see the resemblance when I write with a glass pen, to see similarities as it would in an FP. Now I'm wondering if I should, if it will look any different. The Diamine inks have more shade to them than Chesterfield. After doing this test I'm more convinced to stay with Diamine.

The fire opal and blaze orange, the blaze is a bit darker. Orange might be a better match. But, the Blaze isn't too far. I'll purchase some Orange next batch and re-test it.

The colbalt I purchased is more of a purple than it is the color you have there. In fact it would match Imperial better. Makes me wonder if the color does vary from bottle to bottle. Obviously, it would depend too on the batch that was made, etc... But, I didn't think there would be that much of a difference.

 

Thank you for sharing yours!!

[radellaf]

The swatches are something new I've been doing as a quick alternative to the glass pen (too wet) and the easiest to clean real nib I tried, a Preppy nib & feed pulled out of the pen and dipped. They're made with a ~1mm needle, dipped to get a drop of ink on the side. When I compared all the Antiques I also used a dip crowquill (Tachikawa Comic Maru) to write the name and a scribble, and the swatches compared well I thought. Not as dark, but they give a nice large area of uniform color and there's enough variation to show some shading as well. Unlike a q-tip, it's 100% efficient using the ink, which matters for the tiny 2mL samples. Also, no potential for water or previous ink contamination. They don't show shading quite the same as a nib, so that'd be the main disadvantage, but personally that's the least important and most nib/paper difference dependent characteristic of ink. But, let's face it, half the reason is how easy it is to use.

 

The amount of purple in blue ink scans or photos is generally going to be off, unfortunately. Regardless of the light source, the camera's RGB differs from the eye's in that true shorter-than-blue wavelengths don't stimulate the red sensors.

c.f. http://www.science20.com/science_20/the_real_meaning_of_the_blue_black_white_gold_dress-153567

 

If the ink is a cyan-magenta mix of primaries then the camera can work, but if the dye truly reflects violet wavelengths, it'll show up as straight blue. I have an old Sony camera with RGEB (emerald), but never seen one with violet filters. That's also a cause of metamerism, where the same ink changes color in ways that don't match other inks or what a black body white balance (blue-yellow) adjustment can compensate for.

 

IOW, color on computers is a PITA or impossible to get right. Still, I appreciate your scans and comparisons, and if I can replicate a match that'll give everyone else all the more confidence in it. Plus, it is fun, which is kinda the point as I haven't found a way to get paid for this. I did get paid once for working at a inkjet refill store, but they didn't pay any extra for my refill ink brand color and fade resistance comparisons, and didn't appreciate hearing that their black ink caused bronzing on photo paper. Bronzing is probably the same thing as the sheen FP fans are so happy with. Black ink with a silver or gold sheen is never appreciated by photographers, though.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2016 by radellaf

[hazel]

I would love for you to replicate what I've done. I need to work on the blues. But, that will need to wait for when I have more funds.

 

The swatches you have will clearly show the differences in the inks. I don't think there will be an exact match. And I'm not trying to get to an exact match. Or see the differences within the ink itself. I am trying to get to the closes match with what it would be when using an FP. A glass pen does put out more ink than a regular FP and also depending on the nib. I could probably use a dip pen with a zebra g nib and compare the inks that way. But, still, the dip pen won't give the same results as a nib on an FP. Though it might be closer than an glass dip pen.

[radellaf]

The closest to loading up a FP results I got was using the preppy nib & feed as a dip pen. Needs a holder of some sort though.
It's useful to know if a Diamine looks like a Chesterfield ink in use, but my real motivation is to see which, if any, are the same exact ink. All the more so since the official claim is that none are exact matches. All the better to use different test methods in either case.

 

As far as blues, I'm missing and probably won't get: Cobalt, Sapphire, Turquoise, and Xircon. I'm not planning to get Ruby, or Obsidian either.

 

I have Capri on the way, hoping it will be like Royal, and I think all the other Chesterfield blues. I have most or all of the proposed Diamine blue equivalents (already tested Midnight?) and would be happy to cover costs if someone wants to send me samples of those four Chesterfields. I'm also missing Diamine Blue Black (meant to order that). Everything else I may have, and samples of many possible Diamines but not all. Saddle Brown and Maj Blue are on their way with the new colors.

 

So so far I'll vouch for:

Siam = Monaco Red

Teal = Teal

Fire Opal = Orange

A Yankee = Midnight

Edited May 20, 2016 by radellaf

[hazel]

The closest to loading up a FP results I got was using the preppy nib & feed as a dip pen. Needs a holder of some sort though.

It's useful to know if a Diamine looks like a Chesterfield ink in use, but my real motivation is to see which, if any, are the same exact ink. All the more so since the official claim is that none are exact matches. All the better to use different test methods in either case.

 

Perfect!!

I don't have a preppy, but I can use my metros as dip pens. That's good to have another set of tests that is looking at something difference.

[radellaf]

I got in a bottle of Majestic and it's not the same color (less green) as my old (2012?) sample. The bottle is a pretty good match for Antique Oxford, as has been said.

 

I posted a comparison of some diamine and chesterfield in the new Diamine Oxford Blue thread that might be of interest. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/308409-oxford-blue-diamine/page-2?do=findComment&comment=3632979

[radellaf]

Here's Mahogany = Saddle Brown , Yankee = Midnight, and Oxford vs Majestic. The first two look like good matches on paper but Majestic is more of a pure blue (less green) than Antique Oxford.

 

[radellaf]

Here's the latest batch of comparison swatches. I think I can test all the rest of the proposed matches after the Raleigh pen show Jun 2-5. Ordered a dozen Diamine samples from Anderson Pens for pickup there, what's $15 for science, eh?

 

Not a Match:

Walnut and Macassar

Rose and Scarlet (I'll get a sample of Claret)

 

Some that aren't close enough for me are:

Antique Crimson and Ruby

Antique Oxford and Majestic Blue

Tourmaline and Umber

Teal and Teal (so close, but no)

 

Really close but sometimes see a small difference:

Antique Yankee and Midnight

Capri and Royal Blue (both these leave a gold sheen inside their bottles)

Siam and Monaco Red

Mahogany and Saddle Brown

Fire Opal and Orange

 

The only one where I have no doubt, in all the light sources and any way I squint:

Sodalite and Prussian Blue

 

Edit - preview results:

Sapphire and Sapphire Blue (stuartk's Washable Blue must be a mistake)

Amethyst and Imperial Purple

Cobalt and Imperial Blue

Xircon and Mediterranean Blue (Florida, stuartk's match, is very close)

Antique Orchid and Grape (small difference, Grape is a bit redder)

 

So, so far, I'll call this myth: Plausible.

 

Either xFP is right that their colors are custom made, or Diamine has enough batch-to-batch variation to cover "really close" differences. For the failed matches, it could be that another Diamine color is closer.

 

scan

sunlight

scan

Edited May 28, 2016 by radellaf

[radellaf]

Scan for:

Sapphire and Sapphire Blue (stuartk's Washable Blue must be a mistake)

Amethyst and Imperial Purple

Cobalt and Imperial Blue

Xircon and Mediterranean Blue (Florida, stuartk's match, is very close)

Antique Orchid and Grape (small difference, Grape is a bit redder)

[radellaf]

Well this is some disappointing news from xFP: "We may not be carrying Chesterfield after a while as we expand our ink offerings to include different brands and possibly develop our own line of ink in the future." Something about wanting more consistent performance across the line? So, could be a good thing but, y'know, _more_ ink to buy? How can I handle it (a 2nd job? XD ). I get the motivation but sometimes a color is so nice and highly saturated (Majestic Blue) that it's worth some troubles - not that it wouldn't be better if a clever reformulation could keep the color and make it lower maintenance.

 

All the more reason to know which Diamine colors are closest, I guess, since I like a lot of the Chesterfield colors. And, glad I got to grab the rest of the line, even at $5 vs this week's $3.50 per bottle.

 

Pen show and Diamine samples this Friday - looking forward to checking the last of the proposed equivalences.

 

BTW, Grape is worse in one way than A. Orchid - I shook both and a day later the Grape is still as foamy as dish soap. Orchid wouldn't hold a bubble.

Edited May 31, 2016 by radellaf

[radellaf]

Here's the results with the new samples, scanned on a better scanner (Epson 2450). Added indigo to the first page.

 

Observations, made from the paper, not the scans:

 

1. Diamine Blue-Black (or 1864BB) is less greenish than Chesterfield Night Sapphire.

2. D Turquoise is a plausible match for C Turquoise.

3. D Grape, despite additional tests and grape agitation, is too red to match Antique Orchid.

4. D Quartz Black is more neutral than C Obsidian, which looks blue-black by comparison (but not on its own)

5. D Terra Cotta is much more brick red (appropriate) than the tan C Smoked Topaz

6. D Carnival is much darker and redder than C Garnet

7. D Passion Red is a plausible match for C Ruby

This disagrees with the spreadsheet match of Passion Red with Garnet, and hazel's match of Poppy with Ruby.

8. D Emerald isn't remotely close, it's a yellow-green, to C Emerald, a slightly blue green.

9. D Dark Green is a bright saturated blue-green, not a match for the muted C Erinite

10. D Claret is a plausible match for C Rose.

 

I should make a table of all the results but not tonight.

 

 

 

[bobje]

This research and documentation are as comprehensive as they are useful. Thank you, Radellaf -- impressive work.

[radellaf]

Why thank you. Bit of expense, but a lot of fun, and I have a lot of good ink in the bargain. It was especially nice to be able to skip the shipping on the Anderson Pens samples by picking them up at the store, and to get some that are bigger (3mL) and cheaper than... the other online pen store based a 3hr drive from Raleigh that doesn't ever come <cough, cough>. The real shame is that all these may be discontinued and it's anyone's guess if some will survive into what sounds like a new house brand. I certainly hope so.

 

Out of 33 total colors, there are 13 matches (40%) and 4 with similar colors.

 

Out of 20 "normal" Chesterfield colors:

 

6 have no match (I know of):

Night Sapphire

Obsidian - Debatable, you might say any black is always close to another black

Emerald

Erinite

Garnet

Smoked Topaz

 

12 have "matches" (by inspection, chromatography to follow):

Amethyst - Imperial Purple

Capri - Royal Blue

Cobalt - Imperial Blue

Fire Opal - Orange

Mahogany - Saddle Brown

Rose - Claret

Ruby - Passion Red

Sapphire - Sapphire Blue

Siam - Monaco Red

Sodalite - Prussian Blue

Turquoise - Turquoise

Xircon - Mediterranean Blue (Florida is close)

 

2 have colors similar that are close:

Teal - Teal is close

Tourmaline - Umber is similar

 

Archival Vault is untested, but I believe admitted by xFP to be the same as Registrar's

 

Of the 12 Antique colors, there are no matches, but 2 are close:

 

Yankee - close to Midnight

Oxford - similar to Majestic Blue.

 

Ten appear unique:

Antique Copper

Antique Crimson

Antique Jade

Antique Orchid

Antique Raspberry

Antique Shamrock

Antique Slate

Antique Mariner

Antique Walnut

Antique Raven

Edited June 5, 2016 by radellaf

[MarcS]

in regard to antique orchid: most comparisons have been with diamine grape, confirming "not a match." but an earlier comment in this thread suggested damson, looking very similar on my monitor. so, damson = antique orchid, corroboration or elimination?

[radellaf]

Going back to linking to Imgur or Flickr for photos. I thought image attachments were great, a text forum moving into the 21st century... but there's a 5MB lifetime limit. Still only 100MB even for the highest membership. That's one 1994 Zip disk. Thought it was unlimited and the per-image size kept storage manageable. Oh well, didn't used to have it, will forget we ever did.

 

So... tech troubles aside, I happen to have Damson, but no, not a match. A little darker, much less saturated. Also clings to metal and plastic more than most, where Orchid clings about as little as I've ever seen.

 

Photo:

http://i.imgur.com/tO2o1yW.jpg

[Garageboy]

Funny - I just did a swab test with capri and Royal Blue and found capri a little more "violet"

Maybe its batch variation?

Edited June 6, 2016 by Garageboy

[radellaf]

You inspired the first chromatography test. Real paper would be nice, but Bounty will do.

 

http://i.imgur.com/JwBItDD.jpg

 

I'm going to go with batch variation.