Rotring 1928 plunger gasket replacement.

[gmberg]

Very interesting Scott, it really surprises me Rotring build a plunger filler, and even more that it looks to be a bad design !...

 

I'm with Francis in thinking that the design seems to be the problem. But I think it's the MATERIAL of that nylon cup/washer rather than its shape. Interestingly, Onoto's original patent for a plunger filler first filed in 1908 (!) also used a "cupped" washer of the same approximate shape as your Rotring. Below is an illustration from from Marshall and Oldfield of the Onoto design on top, and the much later Sheaffer design on bottom. I have written about this more full in the Spring 2009 issue of The Pennant

Cheers,

Gerry Berg

 

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/gmberg/Pennant/IMG_2559.jpg

 

[Inka]

I'm with Francis in thinking that the design seems to be the problem. But I think it's the MATERIAL of that nylon cup/washer rather than its shape. Interestingly, Onoto's original patent for a plunger filler first filed in 1908 (!) also used a "cupped" washer of the same approximate shape as your Rotring...

 

Cheers,

 

Very good diagrams, I definitely recognize both and the second as the Sheaffer's Vacuum-Fil pens I've taken apart several times now, including the dished out disc under the gasket material.

The nylon cup on this Rotring has a cone-shaped central core, instead of a cylinder.

I too believe it's the material itself that's to blame for the valve/pump failure, just no memory left for it to spring back outward reforming the tapered "cup" shape.

Had it been made out of a good resilient rubber, even in the same shape, I believe it would very likely never had failed in the first place.

 

[Inka]

@ gmberg;

Where you had posted "I have written about this more full in the Spring 2009 issue of The Pennant".

Please do tell me, what is "The Pennant"?

While trying to Google "The Pennant" I had way too many to know which you had meant, some of course I knew wasn't what I was looking for, such as "Yankees ...the Pennant".

So, is it a magazine, a school newspaper article, a book...what is it exactly, please?

This enquiring mind would really like to know.

If it’s an article you’ve posted online somewhere, a Link to it would also be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

~Scott~

 

[gmberg]

what is "The Pennant"?

If it’s an article you’ve posted online somewhere, a Link to it would also be very much appreciated.

~Scott~

Hi Scott:

The Pennant is the official magazine of the Pen Collectors of America. For people who like the technical and vintage aspects of pens, this is a good source.

http://www.pencollectorsofamerica.com/index.php

The price of membership is worth the subscription. They post old Pennants but not recent ones.

Gerry

 

[Inka]

Hi Scott:

The Pennant is the official magazine of the Pen Collectors of America. For people who like the technical and vintage aspects of pens, this is a good source.

http://www.pencollectorsofamerica.com/index.php

The price of membership is worth the subscription. They post old Pennants but not recent ones.

Gerry

 

Thank you, Gerry, was just going to bed but have Bookmarked the Site to check out tomorrow.

Hoping I can find your mention of "I have written about this more full in the Spring 2009 issue of The Pennant" without the need for membership, I guess I'll find out.

Either way, find it or not, thanks again and I will most definitely take a look at the Website after a good nights' sleep.

Signing off now, almost midinight here and the alarm going off @ 06:00, when the wife gets up for Medical Assistant College course she's taking.

[Inka]

Do let us know how it writes!...

Here's a quick and dirty writing sample, of the Rotring '28 LE written on a 3x5 card.

I'm on my 4th AmPad Canary Legal Pad page today without running out of ink from my first fill yet.

A correction to where I'd said I thought this F nib wrote like a Japanese Fine, that was when I had first "attempted" to fill the pen and it failed, was writing with a semi-dry nib.

Now that it's actually filled with ink, plunger system working again, it writes more like the Western Fine nibs I'm accustomed to using, not as Fine as the VP M nib I have that's much finer than this Fine.

 

Rotring 1928 LE sample, using Noodler's Borealis black for its' first-fill...

 

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/InkaFX/Rotring1928LEWritingSample.jpg

 

P.S.;

Even though it's filling to capacity now, using my "patch", I'm still waiting for Visconti to reply to my e-mail, would still like original plunger parts if that's even possible.

I've already gotten two replies from the listing/s on the Visconti Website, saying those people no longer deal with Visconti, so now I'm waiting for Coles of London to reply.

Anybody in the U.S. ever dealt with Coles of London to get Visconti pen parts or repairs?

I'm new to Visconti, never owned one before and have never had dealings with the company, don't know what to expect as far as Customer Service or parts availability goes.

If I don't get an e-mail reply today, I might try phoning them tomorrow.

[fountainbel]

Congratulations Scott, clever solution, well done !

BTW,my offer to make you a delrin piston replacement piston head still stands !

Francis

[Inka]

Congratulations Scott, clever solution, well done !

BTW,my offer to make you a delrin piston replacement piston head still stands !

Francis

Thanks, Francis, on both counts!

I may just go ahead and take those measurements, send them your way and try your work anyway.

As impressed as I've always been to see your other work, I'd be honored to give your new plunger head a try!

 

Now that it's able to fill, this is truly an AWESOME pen, incredibly well made in every respect, other than the nylon cup seal having failed to bound back as it should have.

The design of the packing unit or rear-seal is simple and sturdy, easy to remove with that TORX bit and should i be able to find a source for those tiny o-rings would make replacing them simplicity itself.

Having now taken it apart successfully I can now see that the plunger rod too is very well made, machined instead of just straight rod stock with threaded ends.

I'd originally thought the o-ring placement was radius-cut, until seeing my macro-photo of it blown up, now seeing it's actually a square cut with 45° angled edge-cut to it and not rounded at all.

I'm already on my 4th page on a Legal pad after a single fill, still going strong and that's not including the 3x5 cards and doodling I've been writing as well, definitely a full fill now as far as I can see.

It's big, it's heavy, it's long, it fits me like no other pen I've ever tried, holding it at less than a 45° to the page it isn't being grasped or pinched it just rests on the webbing of my hand.

I haven't yet gotten the usual hand-cramps and hand pain I get from writing for long periods with smaller, lighter pens, it's as if this pen was made for me above any I've ever used before.

If I wouldn't feel so silly doing so, I'd click on multiples of those silly little bunny-tail-wiggle smilies and put a bunch of them in here, that’s how happy I am with this pen.

[ZeissIkon]

I'm already on my 4th page on a Legal pad after a single fill, still going strong and that's not including the 3x5 cards and doodling I've been writing as well, definitely a full fill now as far as I can see.

 

For whatever it's worth, I get around twelve comp book pages from my Esterbrook J, and that Rotring probably holds twice as much ink with a slightly finer nib -- your legal page pages are larger, however, so I'd expect you to get between sixteen and twenty pages, less whatever you use for side scribbles. That's a nice capacity, and a vacuum filler is as quick and easy to fill as a Touchdown (but holds more ink).

 

Sometime, I need to get some plastic rod stock and make myself a vacuum filler. I've got a couple ideas for improvements in the system...

[Inka]

That's worth quite a bit to me, actually, always good to know the capacity of another pen, especially in this case.

I've gotten used to the transparent lines on the Pelikan to view ink level, even though the striped viewing system isn't that easy to "view" without really bright light it's there.

Believe it or not, I can actually tell when the M800 is nearly out of ink by the weight alone shifting, the cap begins to feel heavier against my hand when it's nearly empty of ink.

I've no idea how many pages I get from that Pelikan, never bothered to actually count, just refill it when it's nearly depleted of ink.

I know the International cartridges hold @ .7ml of liquid when full, having actually measured empty ones with a marked syringe, still I've never counted pages even with one of those.

Once this fill has been used up I'll be switching to a different ink, even going to try the Stylograhic nib next to see how that writes as I've not used one in several years and never one like this.

I'll post samples of how that nib writes as well, once I’m done testing page capacity on this fill and with the Fine nib.

Much appreciated, really!

 

Do you have a metal lathe, ZI?

Man, I miss those days, did most of my turning on Plexiglas, Lexan and similar materials, having been taught how when very young.

I’ve turned steel too, mostly for firing pins, gun barrels, things like that, when I’d worked as a gunsmith.

Most of the milling I've done has been on steel and aluminum, making everything from prototype testing jigs to firearms, including Berretta firearms back when I worked at the Berretta U.S.A. plant in Accokeek, MD a lifetime ago.

I'd love to see what you can do and the ideas you come up with for a new breed of plunger filler/vacuum filler of some sort, absolutely!

 

[ZeissIkon]

Do you have a metal lathe, ZI?

 

Yes, a Chinese-made (Seig is the actual manufacturer, mine is branded Homier) 7x12, with a reasonable selection of tooling (though I'd really love to get a true-inch conversion set, a metric lead screw, and a milling attachment with both true-inch and millimeter pitch screws -- maybe next time I have money ahead I'll spend a couple hundred upgrading the lathe). Big enough to profile even a barrel (13/32" through the spindle), run a chambering reamer, or (with some trickery I've figured out) possibly push a rifling broach; big enough to turn parts for small steam, Stirling, and combustion engines (I can turn a flywheel up to about five inches, with a little imagination in setting up the slides) -- and plenty big enough to turn pen barrels and sections.

[Inka]

...Homier 7x12, with a reasonable selection of tooling ...

I'd been looking at those, along with some other mini-metal lathes, costing @ $399-$500 depending on the accessories and such.

That's about all I have the room for, would have to clean out my spare bedroom of storage, lay down plenty of matting over the carpet since we rent this place.

I have a shed outside but it's metal, gets hot as an oven in summer and like a freezer in winter, plus my tools out there have already begun to rust from the extreme tropical humidity here.

If I could afford one, I'd have one, had I thought about it back when I was able to work I would most certainly have bought one but such is life and hind-sight being 20/20 that's just the way it goes..

 

Man, if you were just a bit closer, like say deep southern Georgia or somewhere closer to me in Florida, it would be worth the trip to come and visit with you.

Right now we can barely even afford the gas we're using to drive more locally, my wife now in school full-time is eating our gas up almost faster than I can keep the tank filled.

Whatever, would still really like to see you get to making a new pen, pictures, specs, from the whole gambit to the finished product would really be great to see.

Keep me posted!

[ZeissIkon]

Whatever, would still really like to see you get to making a new pen, pictures, specs, from the whole gambit to the finished product would really be great to see.

Keep me posted!

 

I'll most likely post photos (assuming I remember to take them) over in Pen Making & Turning when I start working. Not sure when that will be; my budget isn't that much better than yours (I work, but my hours have been cut, and I'm actually earning less than my expenses even after cutting back on stuff -- thank heaven for my lady's disability checks to fill the gap!) and material isn't free, plus at a minimum I'll need to buy some parts (O-rings, nibs and feeds, etc.).

[Inka]

I'll most likely post photos (assuming I remember to take them) over in Pen Making & Turning when I start working. Not sure when that will be; my budget isn't that much better than yours (I work, but my hours have been cut, and I'm actually earning less than my expenses even after cutting back on stuff -- thank heaven for my lady's disability checks to fill the gap!) and material isn't free, plus at a minimum I'll need to buy some parts (O-rings, nibs and feeds, etc.).

Man, I hear what you're saying, only we're in a semi-reversed or "mirrored" situation to what you're facing right now.

I was denied my disability checks, I have zero income, none, notta, zip, have just Monday filed again by phone conference and have just 10 days to get all the paperwork sent in again or I'll be denied again.

My lady was permanently laid off from work over a year ago, we're trying to survive on her emergency unemployment checks while she's back in school as of just last Monday, she's still trying to find a job.

Even after a year of searching for work each and every day, she continues to be turned down despite her vast work experience, employers want that sheep-skin more than experience so she's had to go back to college to get her degree.

This economy [or lack thereof] really stinks, at 51 years of age I have never seen it this bad, no sign as yet [at least in Florida, it's really bad here] of it getting any better either any time soon!

Too bad this Repair Q&A section doesn't provide answers on how to fix the economy, or at least our situations, but I regress, time to get back on-topic again.

 

Anyway, the following is the Rotring '28 Stylographic nib writing sample I'd promised to provide.

I broke down and dumped out the remaining Borealis, measured it first though and pulled out .7ml from the pen barrel with syringe, probably lost @ .1ml to the feed/nib I'd imagine.

That means after writing on over a full 7 Legal-size sheets of paper, I still had nearly a full barrel of ink from that one single first-time-fill, or over .8ml of ink on a single plunger press!

I've used many sizes and types of pens that had similar tips, in a much smaller size, somewhere around here I still have a box full of old Rotring Steno or Rapidograph pens is sizes from @ .10mm to @ 2mm tips.

On to the writing sample, with one very unique fountain pen nib the likes of which I had not used before in my lifetime, skinnier ones sure, in varying tip sizes, just nothing quite like this.

 

This is the Stylograph nib again, the same picture I'd posted previously, one odd-ball looking nib with a very specific purpose and it writes like a greased ball-bearing on glass...

 

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/InkaFX/M.jpg

 

Here is my first attempt at using it, with my "cloned" Coral Sea blend, not Coral Sea but a mix I'd made to duplicate it and nearly spot-on accurate right down to the shading.

Forgive my lack of graphical accuracy, I haven't done any mechanical drawing in close to 20 years, just began pulling out my templates and haven't found the box that contains the bulk of them...

 

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/InkaFX/Rotring-1928-Stylograph-tes.jpg

 

Not too shabby, and a lot of fun to use this nib, but it writes wetter than any of the pens I'd used for drafting and lays down a wide, wet line of ink.

When I went to move my ruler or template, the ink smeared easily on the AmPad GoldFibre paper, reasonably sure had I been using better paper and a drier ink this could have been prevented.

In the meantime I've switched back to the standard fountain pen nib and I'm continuing to enjoy writing with that, at least until I dig out the rest of my drawing supplies buried deeply in one of @ 100 unmarked boxes!

 

:thumbup:

[ZeissIkon]

Inka, you're seeing why drafting tools used to have raised edges -- a T-square would have a thick wood center section, and slightly thinner metal or acrylic edges, so ink wouldn't run under the edge, even if you bumped the rule the wrong direction while picking it up as you inked a drawing. The ones without raised edges were usable only with pencil (though it was common to make the base drawing in pencil, then ink over it, so the triangles and such didn't absolutely have to have raised edges; you'd use the T-square "freehand" to ink the straight lines, and a compass with ink point to do the curves).

 

I'm curious, though, the photograph of that conical tip looks as if it has a tiny ruby ball in it, which would make it a relative of a Uhu ball point that was discussed in some detail here in Repair Q&A a couple months ago. If it doesn't have a ball, a stylographic point would have a wire inside (producing capillary action between the wire and the tube, rather than just a straight drip of ink down the tube), which operates a tiny valve (usually just a piece of plastic, which shuts off the ink when you lift the pen) at the inner end of the tube; you should be able to see the valve from the inside of that point unit in the latter case, as well as seeing a fraction of a millimeter of the wire at the tip.

[Inka]

Yep, fully familiar with drafting tools, having t-squares of all types and materials, templates, compass sets of all types including some very old antiques ones made of solid silver with real ivory lead cases for the lead-holder on some compass tips, adjustable stylus used to dip into bottled inks, drafting pens, pencils, the list of items I have and have used would be a thread unto itself, seriously.

That was before computers, as I also have CAD and AUTO-CAD hardware and software that also all packed away in those 100+ unmarked boxes I'd mentioned.

 

As for the photo of the Stylo' nib tip, there's no rubber ball or any ball of any kind, just a hole with a wire running through the tube inside. The valve is not made of plastic, is in in fact metal and you can see it from the rear of the section and hear it when gently shaking the assembly as it rattles with a metallic sound. Maybe some day I'll try taking better macros, but considering what you've been seeing have been taken with a 6MP pocket camera I think the quality is rather outstanding considering the source. All my Professional photography equipment is in 35mm film format, Olympus SLRs with tele-macro, bulk film backs, motor drives, screen, filter, Hassleblad 120mm with bulk film backs and so on, another nearly endless list of photographic equipment and supplies and well as darkroom equipment I haven't used in way too many years.

 

I have too much "stuff” too much that has gone unused for too many years and stored too deeply inside too many unmarked boxes to know exactly what I have and where it's at anymore.

With financial situations being what they are for us right now, meaning "all bad", I really do need to go through it all and begin to sell it off, most of it anyway.

the problem is having serious, incurable health problems that can only be slightly maintained to alleviate symptoms, even that's not working well enough for me alone to go through all this stuff.

What I do need is help, more help than my wife can give me especially now that she's not hear during the days and is wiped out when she returns home.

I keep saying "one of these days..." but so far all I've been able to do is tackle small things for short periods, all my real good friends now living out of state or out of the country now.

They're my old fishing buddies, machinists, mechanics, Engineers & rocket scientists, friends of old could have and would have come by to help me sort through all this "stuff".

I haven't made any real new friends since moving here nearly 14 years ago, hard to socialize with strangers when most people don't understand chronic pain.

Most people I have had visit cannot even handle to see what pain I do go through on a daily basis, just seeing how I walk or sit or, ... without me even saying a word about it.

I had one good friend tell me he couldn't come by to visit me anymore, he simply couldn't stand to see me in so much pain even though I never once complained, never let out so much as a whimper, it nearly drove him to tears just watching me try getting up from a chair to walk across the room.

 

Thank God for the re-found interest in fountain pens, something I can mess with from the couch, research on the Internet, learn and share, or I'd really be going stir-crazy being stuck here indoors.

Since not being able to even tolerate sunlight now all my outdoor loves, activities, and hobbies are impossible, so being able to get on the computer and mess with fountain pens, as my body will allow, has save my sanity in more ways than I can say.

Please don't say you're sorry nor feel sorry for me, just know that I am here and I enjoy being here, nothing to be sorry about since here I have something I can do and can enjoy doing, and to me that's the most important thing.

Maybe that's why simple things can make me so overwhelmingly happy, many people don't understand that and some seem offended by my showing happiness but that's their problem, it's a reason why I always try to help others and helping them also helps me.

Really glad I'd found FPN, for the reasons stated above and so much more.

 

Well, I need to get to bed now and get some sleep, haven't been getting much sleep lately and it's been taking a big toll on my well-being, what's left of it [lol].

I also need to get up with the alarm @ 06:00 AM when my wife gets up to get ready for school, so more later as right now I’m about to pass out from pain & exhaustion.

 

PEACE, JOY, HAPPINESS, BE WITH YOU!

~Scott~

[Inka]

Here's the follow-up writing sample I'd promised, this one written using my special "blend" of inks that closely mimic Noodler's Cora Sea blue-black.

I've still not tried Squeteague but from what I've heard this color is close, only mine is brighter and is completely "bulletproof" more like Coral Sea is.

This ink looks awesome cool on white paper and from this pen/nib combination, the pen still writing on this its' now 2nd fill after dumping out the Borealis and filling with this blend.

The color of this ink matches the celluloid of the pen almost exactly at times, depending on the lighting, I may just use this one ink 'blend" from here on out in this pen, simply an awesome ink recipe [my best so far!]...

 

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/InkaFX/Rotring-1928-LE-Writing-Sam.jpg

 

I did just a tiny touch of nib smoothing and polishing to this pen yesterday, just enough to knock off the slot-cut burs top and bottom and now it even writes nib-inverted!

I thought the nib was smooth before I'd smoothed it, but now it almost gets away from me and I can see that has also improved my hand-writing not having the snaggers messing up my movements.

 

@ Francis, haven't forgotten about you, just haven't taken measurements yet since having so much fun just writing with the pen now that it actually fills.

I'll either take it apart and map out all the dimensions for you once this 2nd fill empties, or I may break down and dump the ink back into its' bottle and do it sooner.

I'll get to it, I promise, I'm really looking forward to trying your plunger system out for myself, honestly!

 

P.S.;

I'm also looking for my tiny bore gauges, all L. S. Starrett radius-edged adjustable, the ones that have interchangeable ball ends on two sides.

You probably know what I mean about these adjustable bore gauges, just don't remember what they're called, where you turn a knob that expands a shaft on a worm gear, then use a micrometer to measure the distance from each outer radius of the ball-end shaft.

I found my micrometer sets, just haven't been able to find the box with the bore gauges to takes precise measurements of the barrel inner bore size for you.

I'm sure I could use my dial caliper to get an approximation, but since the inner measurement blades are flat and not rounded they'd be off by a few thousandths easily, so I'd have to guess at the added space in the radius for the bore ID.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Inka

[ZeissIkon]

I'm also looking for my tiny bore gauges, all L. S. Starrett radius-edged adjustable, the ones that have interchangeable ball ends on two sides.

You probably know what I mean about these adjustable bore gauges, just don't remember what they're called, where you turn a knob that expands a shaft on a worm gear, then use a micrometer to measure the distance from each outer radius of the ball-end shaft.

 

 

The cheap Chinese ones in my tool cabinet are called "telescoping gages".