Using my new dip nibs

[Paddler]

I buy ink sticks from an art supply store in a college town. The store owner says they are made by Yasutomo.

 

Yasutomo SSB112 "Extra Fine" I presume? It seems to be the standard Japanese ink stick in Europe and USA, a sign of quality? I can get one for 5,50€ per piece and Yasutomo S165 ink stone for 8,50. The oldest reference I found of ink sticks in Europe is from year 1697 in a book "Albert Durer Revived", printed at London;

 

"How to Draw Pictures with Indian ink.

Having the out Strokes of your Picture Drawn with Black Lead, and the duft of your Charcoal well wiped off with a Feather, take a stick of Indian Ink of the very best sort, for if it be whitish and hard within it is naught, and will not work well, a little place of it you may wet with fair Water, or your Spittle, which you please (tho' some do hold the latter to the better, because it is not so subject to sink into the Paper, which to be sure must be very good Dutch Paper) having thus moistuned one little piace of the Indian Ink, [...]".

 

I don't know which quality ink I have. All the writing on the box, other than the health warning, is in Japanese. The stone is the Yasutomo S165. I don't know if it is natural stone or not. It is cold to the touch and smells like stone when I wet it. I was astonished at how well stick ink works with dip pens. It smooths out an otherwise toothy nib. It is fade proof and very water resistant. I use it sometimes for journal entries.

 

Paddler

 

[Mangrove]

I don't know which quality ink I have.

 

http://www.yasutomo.com/

 

Left. SSB101.

Right. SSB112.

http://www.yasutomo.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/SSB101.jpg http://www.yasutomo.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/SSB112.jpg

[Mangrove]

Stick Ink works in a dip pen but it's kind of a pain. It won't keep in a jar and is only good for one writing session.

 

The main reason to use stick ink is the fact it does not contain any additives or anything which would hurt the paper or make the ink to fade or get loose in long period of time. That is why ink won't keep for a long, the glue starts to deteriorate.

[msacco]

Stick Ink works in a dip pen but it's kind of a pain. It won't keep in a jar and is only good for one writing session.

 

The main reason to use stick ink is the fact it does not contain any additives or anything which would hurt the paper or make the ink to fade or get loose in long period of time. That is why ink won't keep for a long, the glue starts to deteriorate.

 

 

Agreed , But an ink like HIggins Eternal is much more convenient IMHO, and it's carbon based as well. It's been used for over a 100 years with no problems. Many great penman of the past used this ink and their writing has endured.

 

Mike S.

Edited August 28, 2009 by msacco

[Mangrove]

It's been used for over a 100 years with no problems. Many great penman of the past used this ink and their writing has endured.

 

Right, but my definition for "endurance" is at least 1000 years (the oldest western-type-paper written with "real" carbon ink).

 

The oldest known dated Arabic manuscript on paper.

[wykpenguin]

Stick Ink works in a dip pen but it's kind of a pain. It won't keep in a jar and is only good for one writing session.

Punt on this one and go with HIggins Eternal. Higgins makes a lot of inks so makes sure it's ETernal.

 

Mike S.

 

True. That's why liquid sumi-e ink is more popular now. It has most of the qualities of stick ink but of course with additive added to keep it from precipitating.

[ImperialSheaffer]

 

 

Hi All

 

I received yesterday my first of 3 dip pens with some vintage nibs.

I tried few of them which I like and few that will remain in a tin.

 

I use Diamine ink for all my FP and have one bottle of Sheaffer b/b which I rarely use. Mixed with other inks.

 

I read above that Diamine inks are not really suitable for dip pens. I am very sad now, as the purpose of going back to use dip pens [school memories], was to use my Diamine inks.

Does it really matter?

 

Thanks

 

Gilles

 

 

[ZeissIkon]

My continuing experience is that once the nib is "broken in", almost any ink will work, though fountain pen inks are on the "runny" side and will tend to write wet and need more frequent dipping (letting the ink evaporate a little may improve this, though it's potentially hazardous to leave an uncapped bottle standing around -- putting the ink in an inkwell may be a good solution). In my own case, the black ink jet refill ink -- that wasn't working for me at all with some of my nibs -- is now my ink of choice for those same nibs. Licking the nib, top and bottom, before the first dip of each session, and just wiping it with a paper towel to remove leftover ink (rather than washing) at the end of a session were what solved the flow problems for me. The Perry & Co. Eastern Wonder nibs I bought from jbb are a wonderful small oblique stub, and one of those is my primary dip nib now, though the gold color of the nib is almost invisible for the carbon ink that's stayed on the metal. I'm going to be very happy that I have a bunch of those, because I can easily see writing with them on a regular basis for a long time to come.

 

Of course, now I need to get an inkwell; dipping deep into a narrow-necked bottle is a fine way to wind up with inky fingers...

[wykpenguin]

Once the nib is properly "broken in" (i.e. roughened either by corrosion, oxidation, leftover ink/saliva) most inks will stick and will not blob or drip. FP inks are less viscous and will write wetter than dip pen inks. My solution is to write on better (less absorbent) paper or to write faster.

[ImperialSheaffer]

 

Hi All

 

So, I received a bunch of vintage nibs, which most need to be broken. I find most of them scratchy when EF.

 

The question is how many nibs does someone need?

Is it necessary to have few of the same make?

Or how to say, how long does a nib is supposed to last.

 

I see there are boxes of nibs fore sale and was wondering if they need to be changed often?

 

Thanks

 

Gilles

[Inka]

... at the start of the writing session, lick the nib on both sides. Don't slobber it up; a dry lick on both sides is enough. Then write a couple of inches on a piece of scrap paper or a blotter to get the spit out of the slit...

 

As weird as this first sounded to me, this actually works very well!!!

You're not the first I seen advise this little trick, had seen this same advice on some very old posts by people having used dip-pens for decades.

Must be something to it, if a novice such as myself can get good results from this "primer" tip, just have to remember not to lick my nibs once they've been inked [Mmm, tasty, inky tongue too!].

 

I need to get back at it, been using a Vista fp with a 1.5mm Italic lately and that's kinda like cheating, takes all the work out and not as much variation as with some of the super-flexy dip-nibs I got from jbb.

More a fear of tipping over an open bottle of ink, using an Italic fountain pen now instead of the dip-nibs I have, since I don't sit at a desk to write and write using a Lapdesk nearly all of the time.

I would die [my wife would kill me!] if I spilled ink onto our $2,000+ sofa/recliner that was a gift from good friends when they'd moved to Utah last Christmas.

 

One of these days I'd like to get an ink-stone and some ink sticks to try, preferably Japanese but seems most all I see are Chinese sticks & stones these days, even at Japanese Websites that sell them.

They're not that expensive and the idea of grinding a stick on a stone, adding water to the particles to make ink is fascinating to me.

I just don't know how well carbon steel dip-nibs would work with ink sticks, since they're made for Oriental Calligraphy brushes to my understanding, but I have seen bamboo and reeds made into pens used with this method of inking.

[ZeissIkon]

 

Hi All

 

So, I received a bunch of vintage nibs, which most need to be broken. I find most of them scratchy when EF.

 

The question is how many nibs does someone need?

Is it necessary to have few of the same make?

Or how to say, how long does a nib is supposed to last.

 

I see there are boxes of nibs fore sale and was wondering if they need to be changed often?

 

Thanks

 

Gilles

 

The plain steel nibs may need replacing fairly often, because they'll rust. Nibs were sold in boxes (a gross, a dozen dozen, was a common number) because dip pens were last commonly used in locations where damage was common: banks, post offices, schools, and other places where pens and ink were made publicly available, before ball points eliminated daily filling and weekly cleaning of ink wells, the occasional ink spill, and so forth. A gross of points was probably about a year's supply for a small bank or post office (maybe a bit longer than that, depending on the ratio of damage to corrosion loss).

 

Given these nibs are (mostly) untipped, even a gold plated one won't last the way a hard tipped fountain pen nib will, though for someone who doesn't write all day every day with the pen, even a plain steel nib that escapes rust will likely last decades. FWIW, I have an Esterbrook fountain with an untipped nib that came to me with a significant "foot" on the rolled point, likely the result of somewhere between ten and thirty years of daily use for all writing tasks. Wear in dip nibs is especially noticeable with the "needle point" flexible nibs, which need to write a very small hairline; a fairly small amount of point wear will widen the hairline to the point where the pen no longer does what's needed in terms of Copperplate or Spencerian. Spoon points and stubs, by contrast, will likely last as long as their metallurgy permits them to remain rust free.

[wykpenguin]

I assure you that stick ink will work perfectly on a dip nib. Though loading the nib might be a problem. Unlike a brush, dip nibs won't soak up ink. So dipping the nib in a puddle isn't a nice solution, unless your puddle of stick ink is 4cm deep (which takes lots of elbow grease to make and will go to waste), you won't be able to load by dipping. My solution is to use one of those disposable Pasteur pipettes (I work in a lab, so I get lots of those for free) to suck up and then dispense drops of ink into the nib. Stick ink actually gives me finer hairlines than Higgins Eternal.

 

Your question about nib life is harder to answer. First it depends on the nib you use. Italic nibs practically last for a lifetime if you don't clog them with gauche or some strange media. Dulled italic nibs can be sharpened easily on frosted glass and a little bit of rust won't affect writing. Only one out of my many Brause Italic nibs rusted but that was fault on my part, I left it in water overnight. It was rusted beyond repair and imagination the next morning. If you wash your nibs and wipe them dry immediately, the chances of rusting are minimal.

 

Flex nibs on the other hand have a fixed lifetime or I should say mileage. They don't die of rust or clogging if you treat them nicely but eventually they will get noticeably broader. Unless you have a talent for sharpening them (which I don't), they're pretty much headed for the bin. Some stiffer flex nibs such as the G nibs last longer, but the softer ones e.g. Hunt 101, 108, etc won't last very long. How long it takes depends on your writing style. I expect that the lighter you write the longer they last. Esp. on the upstrokes, a few catches will definitely kill a flex nib. My Hunt 101's lasted about 3 weeks when I wrote a page of Spencerian a day. The 108 crow quill's lifetime was even shorter.

 

Another problem I have encountered was the nibs getting catchier towards the end of their lifetime. I suspect that it has something to do with the tines getting misaligned because of catches (preventable) and uneven flexing (hard to eliminate).

 

The usual course of life for a flex nib is sharp and scratchy for the firs 2-3 pages --> broken in, peak condition (smooth and sharp) --> deterioration (hairlines get wider but still smooth) and then death (either hairlines get too wide for Spencerian or nib gets too scratchy to use). The broadening of flex nibs can be quite dramatic as this piece shows.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3556/3404706751_8ccd61f697_b_d.jpg

The top piece was done with an old Hunt 101 and the bottom was done with a new one.

[TeenyTaurus]

I found some dipping ink at Barnes & Noble, called Aladine, that was less than $5 if I remember correctly. Works well, meant for writing with a simple nib, a few nice colors. Excuse the horrid handwriting, but I (hopefully) attached a sample I did really quick on some Black n Red paper with a really cheap nib.

http://image.doc2pdf...ple_dip_pen.pdf

 

Edit here: Don't use the stuff in a fountain pen!

Edited September 26, 2009 by TeenyTaurus

[ImperialSheaffer]

 

 

Just got a box of Brandauer 183 Review Pen. Wonderful nibs. When I saw the box, it all came back.

 

School revisited. I used Baignol & Farjon too.

 

The seller included some Mitchells, Heaths, Esterbrooks 134 ..

 

I was frustrated with not being able to use my Diamine inks.

 

With the new batch of nibs, after a licks on both sides, my Florida blue gives me 3-4 lines with all of them.

 

Yeah!!

 

Will try the Diamine too. Soon.

 

What I did wrong, was to wet my finger with my saliva and rub the nibs. I did not want to have some ink on my tongue and that metallic taste.

But it did not work, so I am licking now..

I cannot remember do it at school; licking nibs??!!

 

Time changes

 

Gilles.

[Anne-Sophie]

I have used dip pens for a very long time, when I started to write, under strict supervision, when I was a little girl and during my teens.

 

I don't remember -ever- french kissing a dip pens! Ewwwww! Beurk! (french equivalent)

 

The ones I used as a little girl were very old and it would not have been permitted by the adult supervising.

 

 

The ones I used as a teen were new, bought as a set but again I had no intention of giving myself a tongue piercing by accident.

 

I just opened the bottle of ink, dipped the nib and started writing on smooth paper (end of a cahier) or it might have been on the flip side of typing paper.

 

 

When writing with a dip pen, pretending you are a princess or a prince is very helpful.

 

You dip, you write one word in cursive, you dip write another word and so on.

It is not a fast writing method, no pressure at all is needed, "the princess attitude" helps keeping the dip pen light in the paper.

 

I always use a traditional triangular grip which is even lighter with dip pens.

 

Dipping needs to be a fast action, dip, glide underside of nib on top of ink bottle, write.

 

I had to take great care not to tip the bottle.

 

The constant motion is tiring and only trained professional like Caliken are usually able to make beautiful and consistent letters with a dip pen, it is an art.

 

 

I think that Biffybeans handwriting might be a problem in this instance but I am not sure.

 

If you are lefty is going to get tricky, I tried using my left hand to write with a dip pen and it was not easy.

 

 

Could you all post a picture or a movie or even give a description of your grip and handwriting?

 

 

I just realized that an antique writing desk either as furniture or a portable one with recessed areas to hold an inkwell and bottle of ink is absolutely necessary to write with dip pens.

 

Hunting for the portable desk thread and plotting purchase.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Anne-Sophie

[wykpenguin]

 

What I did wrong, was to wet my finger with my saliva and rub the nibs. I did not want to have some ink on my tongue and that metallic taste.

But it did not work, so I am licking now..

I cannot remember do it at school; licking nibs??!!

 

Time changes

 

Gilles.

 

I usually lick a piece of paper and wipe my nibs with that. There's less grease on a tissue paper than your fingers so it works fine.

 

 

I have used dip pens for a very long time, when I started to write, under strict supervision, when I was a little girl and during my teens.

 

I don't remember -ever- french kissing a dip pens! Ewwwww! Beurk! (french equivalent)

 

The ones I used as a little girl were very old and it would not have been permitted by the adult supervising.

 

 

The ones I used as a teen were new, bought as a set but again I had no intention of giving myself a tongue piercing by accident.

 

I just opened the bottle of ink, dipped the nib and started writing on smooth paper (end of a cahier) or it might have been on the flip side of typing paper.

 

 

When writing with a dip pen, pretending you are a princess or a prince is very helpful.

 

You dip, you write one word in cursive, you dip write another word and so on.

It is not a fast writing method, no pressure at all is needed, "the princess attitude" helps keeping the dip pen light in the paper.

 

I always use a traditional triangular grip which is even lighter with dip pens.

 

Dipping needs to be a fast action, dip, glide underside of nib on top of ink bottle, write.

 

I had to take great care not to tip the bottle.

 

The constant motion is tiring and only trained professional like Caliken are usually able to make beautiful and consistent letters with a dip pen, it is an art.

 

 

I think that Biffybeans handwriting might be a problem in this instance but I am not sure.

 

If you are lefty is going to get tricky, I tried using my left hand to write with a dip pen and it was not easy.

 

 

Could you all post a picture or a movie or even give a description of your grip and handwriting?

 

 

I just realized that an antique writing desk either as furniture or a portable one with recessed areas to hold an inkwell and bottle of ink is absolutely necessary to write with dip pens.

 

Hunting for the portable desk thread and plotting purchase.

 

A dip allows me to write at least a line unless I am doing copperplate, then it lasts only a few words. If it doesn't last a line then something is wrong. Being a lefty myself, I would not say it's hard to use dip pens. Actually I find it easier because it's easier to align the slit to the main slant for lefties. I can use straight holders for cursive. I was always puzzled as to how the right hander majority could use flexy FPs. Another way to write is to turn the page 90 deg. CW and write down the page which is how I do Italic. It's not hard once you're accustomed to it. My cursive actually looks better when I use an oblique holder and write straight down. IAMPETH calligrapher John DeCollibus writes this way in his video on Youtube.

[ImperialSheaffer]

 

So, I am done with Diamine inks and dip pens. [well for now..]

 

Diamine wont stick to most of my nibs apart Easterbrook 314.

 

Now, I tried Sheaffer blue-black and I get the same results.

 

The only ink which sticks to all my nibs is Waterman Florida blue. Like i said earlier, 3-4 lines depending of the nib.

 

So, there it is, Waterman is the ink. Hopefully with time, the Diamine will stick.

 

After consideration, I will get the red too for dipping.

 

Gilles

 

Edited September 28, 2009 by ImperialSheaffer

[bigstick]

"newt's knickers" I like that. Say it three times fast. It just roooooooooolllllllllllllllllllssssssssssss off the tongue. I am SOOOO going to steal that. Oh yah. Higgins Eternal all the way, even though I have to mail order it. This city is in an age so dark, you could grind it for ink.

[countrydirt]

Thanks bigstick for reviving this thread! I have learned much about using my dip pens.