Using my new dip nibs

[ZeissIkon]

This weekend I bought a Speedball pen holder and a package with a Hunt 512 and Hunt 513EF dip nibs. So far, I've tried the 513EF with genuine India ink (Dr. Ph. Martin's Bombay brand), Noodler's Standard Brown, and some black inkjet refill ink I have (carbon particle ink that's almost fountain pen safe). I washed the nib with hot water and dish soap before using it, to remove the protective oil. Despite the old method of wiping the underside of the nib gently on the inner edge of the bottle neck after each dip, I find the pen too wet with all three inks immediately after dipping, and the India is the worst in that regard. When writing without pressure, I'm getting around one line (on 8.5x11 legal pad) per dip with the India and Noodler's, and up to several lines with the inkjet ink (which is a little more viscous than the India and sticks on the nib more), depending how much I wipe off after the dip. I'm also finding the nib doesn't have much flex, and I don't get any finer hairline than I do with my semi-flex fine nib Hero fountain pen (even with the same Noodler's Brown).

 

Is this just a not-too-interesting nib? The packaging says it's for sketching, mapping, cross-hatching, and lettering. I can get a flex out of it, up to around 1.5 mm line, but except with the ink jet ink, that empties the ink from the nib almost immediately (less than one word), and flex writing just doesn't look right with the heavy, wet lines.

 

I've read about adding a wax feed to the nib, or using a wire coil for an overfeed (or I could fabricate an overfeed like the ones on Speedball nibs from brass sheet I have around, possibly even solder it onto the nib) -- but capacity isn't the big issue here. I'm more concerned that, at least with the 513EF, the writing experience really isn't much different from an EF fountain pen, except for having to dip regularly. Am I just not approaching this correctly? Should I order some still finer nibs (like Gillot 303) in order to improve the hairline?

[biffybeans]

See? It's not just me. I've had a bunch of troubles trying to get a dip pen to work. You can read about it here: http://www.biffybeans.com/2009/03/want-to-...tility-try.html What was frustrating to me was that so many people said, No No No you need to prepare the nib THIS way and each person's version was different. I tried soap & water and I also tried running it under a lighter flame. Some inks worked in some nibs and not in others. Some nibs wouldn't hold any ink, others wouldn't let it go..... These were all Brause nibs - which are said to be the Cadillac of nibs. I ried 3 brands of India inks, two kinds of drawing ink and several different kinds of fountain pen inks and I couldn't get anything to be consistent. HOWEVER - when I could get the nibs to write (on occasion) they were really smooth.... Sometimes I could only get a few words down & ink would be blobbing everywhere.

 

 

This weekend I bought a Speedball pen holder and a package with a Hunt 512 and Hunt 513EF dip nibs. So far, I've tried the 513EF with genuine India ink (Dr. Ph. Martin's Bombay brand), Noodler's Standard Brown, and some black inkjet refill ink I have (carbon particle ink that's almost fountain pen safe). I washed the nib with hot water and dish soap before using it, to remove the protective oil. Despite the old method of wiping the underside of the nib gently on the inner edge of the bottle neck after each dip, I find the pen too wet with all three inks immediately after dipping, and the India is the worst in that regard. When writing without pressure, I'm getting around one line (on 8.5x11 legal pad) per dip with the India and Noodler's, and up to several lines with the inkjet ink (which is a little more viscous than the India and sticks on the nib more), depending how much I wipe off after the dip. I'm also finding the nib doesn't have much flex, and I don't get any finer hairline than I do with my semi-flex fine nib Hero fountain pen (even with the same Noodler's Brown).

 

Is this just a not-too-interesting nib? The packaging says it's for sketching, mapping, cross-hatching, and lettering. I can get a flex out of it, up to around 1.5 mm line, but except with the ink jet ink, that empties the ink from the nib almost immediately (less than one word), and flex writing just doesn't look right with the heavy, wet lines.

 

I've read about adding a wax feed to the nib, or using a wire coil for an overfeed (or I could fabricate an overfeed like the ones on Speedball nibs from brass sheet I have around, possibly even solder it onto the nib) -- but capacity isn't the big issue here. I'm more concerned that, at least with the 513EF, the writing experience really isn't much different from an EF fountain pen, except for having to dip regularly. Am I just not approaching this correctly? Should I order some still finer nibs (like Gillot 303) in order to improve the hairline?

[Splicer]

The 512 is a writing pen and does not have very much flex to it. When they say it's good for maps and crosshatching, it's because it's relatively easy to get a consistent line from it. It's not for getting swooshy expressive lines. It's about equivalent to the flex of an Esterbrook 9128. If you're looking for flex, I'd recommend the Brause #361 "Blue Pumpkin" or the Brause #76 "Rose". The Hunt #99, #101, or #102 pens will give you good flex as well. Also the #108 has a nice combination of fine and flexy.

[dcwaites]

Dear Biffybeans,

Please put on your best paranoid, "They really are out to get me" hat. It is just you...

 

So far, with a collection of a couple of dozen different types of dip nibs, some coated steel, a couple gilded, one brass, one bronze, and several of different grades of stainless steel, the following technique works with every one of them --

 

1) Put the nib into a pen holder and clean it with a toothbrush and some dishwashing liquid. Use either an old toothbrush, or one from a boyfriend you are trying to persuade to become an ex-boyfriend. When you are finished, shake the nib dry. Don't rinse the toothbrush, leave the excess soap on it. If it is an old toothbrush, you will want the soap next time. If it is the boyfriend's, the soapy toothpaste taste next time he brushes may help him to decide to move on...

 

2) You don't need to wipe the nib dry. Keep fingers away from it. Don't touch the nib, grease will migrate from your fingers to the nib faster than milk teleports from the 'fridge to the stomach of a passing teenager. If you do decide to wipe the nib, use the cheapest of tissues or toilet papers. You do not want the ones with embedded aloe vera, skin softener, aged musk-ox scent or whatever. Plain cellulose tissue. Fold it several times to make sure you are keeping your fingers away from the nib.

 

3) Use an appropriate ink. Parker Quink Black or PQ Permanent Blue is a good starter. If need be, you can dilute the Blue 1:1 with water. Inks that don't work are wet, free-flowing dye-rich inks like Private Reserve, Diamine and some of the Noodlers. Ink jet ink doesn't work well. India inks are for drawing and calligraphy, where you move the pen slowly and deliberately, not fast like with normal handwriting. Inks that do work well are Sailor Jentle Blue, Parker Quink inks, Sheaffer Skrip inks and Noodler's Ottoman Azure.

 

When you first start using a new nib, it won't hold much ink. It has to build up a patina of dried ink, embedded in the surface of the nib. After a couple of day's use, most any nib will hold enough to write several lines without having to re-dip. After a while, you should find that when you dip the pen, almost the whole surface of the nib is wet with ink. If you take it out of the ink slowly, you shouldn't have to wipe the nib on the side of the bottle, but it should still hold enough ink to be useful.

 

Remember that dip pen nibs do take a little 'breaking-in', both to smooth the tip and to get the surface holding enough ink.

[wykpenguin]

As Biffybeans points out, mileage does vary.

 

My usual practice is to wash the nib with soap and water and just flick the water away (be sure nobody else is in the way. Nibs are SHARP).

 

As for ink, Higgins Eternal Black seems to be my winner. So far it has worked on every nib I've tried. Noodler's Zhivago was also well behaved. Sumi-e ink is also very good but it is a bit hard to clean your nibs after sumi-e ink dries on them.

[davidspitzer]

This weekend I bought a Speedball pen holder and a package with a Hunt 512 and Hunt 513EF dip nibs. So far, I've tried the 513EF with genuine India ink (Dr. Ph. Martin's Bombay brand), Noodler's Standard Brown, and some black inkjet refill ink I have (carbon particle ink that's almost fountain pen safe). I washed the nib with hot water and dish soap before using it, to remove the protective oil. Despite the old method of wiping the underside of the nib gently on the inner edge of the bottle neck after each dip, I find the pen too wet with all three inks immediately after dipping, and the India is the worst in that regard. When writing without pressure, I'm getting around one line (on 8.5x11 legal pad) per dip with the India and Noodler's, and up to several lines with the inkjet ink (which is a little more viscous than the India and sticks on the nib more), depending how much I wipe off after the dip. I'm also finding the nib doesn't have much flex, and I don't get any finer hairline than I do with my semi-flex fine nib Hero fountain pen (even with the same Noodler's Brown).

 

Is this just a not-too-interesting nib? The packaging says it's for sketching, mapping, cross-hatching, and lettering. I can get a flex out of it, up to around 1.5 mm line, but except with the ink jet ink, that empties the ink from the nib almost immediately (less than one word), and flex writing just doesn't look right with the heavy, wet lines.

 

I've read about adding a wax feed to the nib, or using a wire coil for an overfeed (or I could fabricate an overfeed like the ones on Speedball nibs from brass sheet I have around, possibly even solder it onto the nib) -- but capacity isn't the big issue here. I'm more concerned that, at least with the 513EF, the writing experience really isn't much different from an EF fountain pen, except for having to dip regularly. Am I just not approaching this correctly? Should I order some still finer nibs (like Gillot 303) in order to improve the hairline?

 

 

try a real flex nib like a gillot 303 and some good ink

[penbrushink]

Dip pens have a few differences which take getting used to.

 

- the flow of ink is much heavier. On good paper, this means crisp super-dark blacks. On poor paper, it means blobs and feathering.

- a light touch is required. LIGHT. Remember that the nib and nib-holder will be lighter than your lightest ever FP

- it is highly ink dependent. A fast flowing ink may mean pools of ink rather than letters.

- nib orientation is critical. (Oblique nib holders have a purpose)

 

Oh, and just for reference, Lamy black ink is a well behaved, non feathering, medium flow ink.

 

So here is a quick example, that makes some points.

Those expecting wondrous copperplate, avert your eyes!

Forget the messy writing for the moment ..

 

On the ordinary paper there is lots of unevenness -- when writing "very different" I hit a patch in the paper which sucked up ink. There is random micro-feathering.

 

On good paper (slightly heavier but still cheap cartridge pad) there is an evenness in lettering because the paper is so well behaved.

 

Some initial suggestions:

 

- If not using an oblique holder, write as near to vertical as you can.

- (which means hold the nib holder in alignment with the letter verticals)

- Light hand, light grip. Place your index finger on top of the nib holder, pressing on it as if pressing an old light spring switch.

- Get some cheap cartridge paper, sketching paper. It'll treat you better when learning the ropes.

 

The main thing about flex nibs? FUN!

Want to make filling our horrible tax forms and boring paper work fun?

Use flex-nibs with permanent carbon ink!

 

I only have one, old, worn, Brausse flex nib. That is it. But man, am I getting fun out of it.

I'd love some pilot custom falcon flex, or some old waterman 52. Ah, some day it'll happen.

 

 

[msacco]

Just another peice of advice.

You should not be having this much trouble with a dip pen.

You don't really need to wash the nib under water with soap. A dab of ammonia and water or alchohol with the corner of a napkin or tissue is all that is really necessary. I've started many, many, many nibs this way.

Also, a light touch is required. This seems to be hard for most people today coming off of ball points and even foutain pens. A good rule of thumb for pressure is to hold the holder from the back end and let it teeter down to the paper.

That's how light your touch must be. Brian Walker has said "only the ink touches the paper". Get the point?

As far as nib and ink go your using the wrong ones. Use Higgins Eternal to start. And try a Hunt 101. Nice flex and fine. there's finer and more flexible but work up to it.

 

Mike S.

Edited August 24, 2009 by msacco

[ZeissIkon]

Well, let's see -- I have a pretty light touch with a fountain pen, I don't think I'm pressing too hard with the dip pen; smooth is exactly what I'm feeling with the 512 and 513EF. And the pen does hold ink; I haven't had an expectation of getting more than a line or so from a dip. Knowing the Hunt 512 and 513EF aren't particularly flexible is good (I'd pretty much reached that conclusion, but wanted to check); I may try ordering a Gillot 303 and Hunt 101 from Dick Blick. When people say I should use "good" paper, it'd be helpful to see examples (so I know if I can afford to pursue that avenue -- my budget is limited); I'm not at all sure what cartridge paper is (I'd guess it's called something else in the USA), and anything with much "character" is likely to cost as much for a small sample as I'm used to paying for a whole pad, or even a ream. I can probably manage to get some Higgins ink, next payday if not before; the local Hobby Lobby has a bunch of it at around $3 for a one ounce bottle.

 

And, as Biffybeans predicted, there are already at least three methods of starting a nib just in this thread so far.

[penbrushink]

ZeissIkon,

 

(Cartridge paper is just a heavier paper -- good for sketching)

 

Try this:

Of all the paper you have available to you now, take samples of it.

Draw lines on each small piece, each sample, with a fountain pen.

Of the paper that does not bleed and does not feather, look at the lines.

Of all the lines, choose the paper that left the finest, thinest line.

Use that paper.

 

If the nib is washed and dried, it should work. If it doesn't, just assume it is the ink.

 

The more fancy the ink (bullet proof, lubricating, all-singing all-dancing) the less room it has to be just ink.

Ordinary medium-wet fountain pen ink will work. Lamy is such an ink. Quink is not: too wet.

 

A light touch = hover the pen above the page and "will" the ink onto the paper ;-)

[Paddler]

This is getting more complicated than it needs to be.

 

To start a new nib:

Most new nibs have a light coat of oil that keeps them from rusting. Use a cotton swab with an oil solvent. Lighter fluid works well. You only have to remove the oil once in the nib's life, unless you rub it with your fingers.

Thereafter, at the start of the writing session, lick the nib on both sides. Don't slobber it up; a dry lick on both sides is enough. Then write a couple of inches on a piece of scrap paper or a blotter to get the spit out of the slit.

Dip the pen in whatever ink you want to use. The ink should evenly coat the nib on both sides. It should not bead up anyplace. If the ink beads up, dry the nib and go to step 1 again and remove oil. You are after maximum, mega nib creep here.

When the writing session ends, clean and dry the nib.

At the start of subsequent sessions: lick, write on the blotter, dip in ink.

 

Ink? I have used fountain pen inks (including Noodler's bulletproof), calligraphy inks, prepared powdered inks, drawing inks, and stick inks with dip pens. They all work well. (If you have never tried stick inks, do it. They are wonderful - just the absolute newt's knickers.)

 

The broader the nib, the oftener you will have to dip. A Spencerian Society Stub will write a short word per dip. A Lady Falcon will write a couple of lines.

 

Paddler

[wykpenguin]

I have to agree on stick ink. They give superfine hairlines and are "well-behaved", i.e. good flow and doesn't blurb. Liquid sumi-e ink in a bottle comes close but isn't quite as well behaved.

 

I could help myself adding, a crow quill will write a page.

[lefty928]

Well, let's see -- I have a pretty light touch with a fountain pen, I don't think I'm pressing too hard with the dip pen; smooth is exactly what I'm feeling with the 512 and 513EF. And the pen does hold ink; I haven't had an expectation of getting more than a line or so from a dip. Knowing the Hunt 512 and 513EF aren't particularly flexible is good (I'd pretty much reached that conclusion, but wanted to check); I may try ordering a Gillot 303 and Hunt 101 from Dick Blick. When people say I should use "good" paper, it'd be helpful to see examples (so I know if I can afford to pursue that avenue -- my budget is limited); I'm not at all sure what cartridge paper is (I'd guess it's called something else in the USA), and anything with much "character" is likely to cost as much for a small sample as I'm used to paying for a whole pad, or even a ream. I can probably manage to get some Higgins ink, next payday if not before; the local Hobby Lobby has a bunch of it at around $3 for a one ounce bottle.

 

And, as Biffybeans predicted, there are already at least three methods of starting a nib just in this thread so far.

 

Sorry to hear about your problems with the nib and holder. I can think of a couple other ways to take the factory coating off a pen (as well as just writing with it a couple hours, which I wouldn't recommend because it's less fun), and I'm sure you'd find many more techniques online. Pointed pen nibs are delicate and sometimes you get a bum one, also. Regarding paper, let's see, I can second the selection on John Neal's site of the Ampad Embassy legal pad, Clairfontaine Triomphe, Clairfontaine notebook paper, Borden & Riley layout paper (or any smooth layout paper in your local Michaels or art store, probably), and also just plain laser paper ... John Neal Bookseller is a calligraphy supplier that I promise I'll quit bringing up on FPN over and over. It's just that I find that the catalog has informative captions about its pretty wide selection of nibs for Spencerian and Copperplate. Here are a few of the relevant pages: johnnealbooks.com (first); jnb3 ; jnb2

 

P.S. Do try the Higgins Eternal. The teacher of a couple calligraphy classes I attended was very insistent that fountain pen ink doesn't have the right consistency for [broad-] edged work. While it's different, and runnier, fountain pen ink still works, particularly for some of the talented people who have posted examples of their writing here! And I won't get into the optional couple drops of gum arabic for the Higgins, mostly because my memory is hazy and I forget how it's supposed to help.

Edited August 25, 2009 by lefty928

[ZeissIkon]

Higgins and Sumi-e inks are readily available locally; I didn't check prices on Sumi-e, but Higgins isn't too expensive. Now, where can I find stick ink? I presume this is similar to the Chinese block ink, where you dip the pen in water, scratch it on the ink block, and then write?

[wykpenguin]

You are supposed to get a stick of ink and an ink stone (petri dish shaped piece of slate). Dip the stick in water and grind it on an ink stone to get ink. Scratching a wet pen on the ink stick is the best way to kill the pen and not get anything useful in the process.

[ZeissIkon]

You are supposed to get a stick of ink and an ink stone (petri dish shaped piece of slate). Dip the stick in water and grind it on an ink stone to get ink. Scratching a wet pen on the ink stick is the best way to kill the pen and not get anything useful in the process.

 

I stand corrected -- what you describe sounds like the "long method" I recall, though I'd swear I've heard of using the ink directly from the stick.

 

Looks like I can get an ink stick and stone for not much over $20 shipped, I might look into that -- but not this week...

[Paddler]

I put a few drops of distilled water on the stone and then gently rub the ink stick in the puddle.

 

I buy ink sticks from an art supply store in a college town. The store owner says they are made by Yasutomo. He also sells the inkstones.

 

There is a whole huge body of legend about the best inkstones - how the very best stone comes from a certain province in China, from certain ledges in certain quarries and how the supply is running low and pushing the price up. Welllllll, maybe, but I am very very very very skeptical about all that. For years, I used a geologist's streak plate: a piece of bisque-fired porcelain. It worked just fine. Then, I etched the bottom of a petrie dish with the edge of a sharpening stone. That worked OK too.

 

The ink quality is more important. If the carbon particles are not small enough, they can bridge up in the slit and the pen begins to write with water. You have to keep flexing the tines to keep the ink flowing. With good ink, you don't have to do that.

 

The ink I get has borneol in it. Borneol is an alcohol that quickly oxidizes to become camphor. When you begin "grinding" the ink, it has a smell like incense. After a while it changes to a camphor smell. I have no idea what it does to the ink properties. The ink box comes with a health warning label that says not to eat the ink because of the borneol. I am not worried about it; the pong is not heavy at all.

 

You can find out more on the subject here:

 

http://www.algonet.se/~claesg/

 

Standard disclaimers. Claes is a member of Lion and Pen.

 

Paddler

 

[wykpenguin]

Yes you can get ink from rubbing a pen on the ink stick but it will be very dilute. Nothing near the rich black you get after grinding on the ink stone.

 

As for good and bad ink stones, anything with a fine grain (almost satin finish) should work. If the ink stone is too rough, you might be chipping off pieces of stick ink instead of grinding out carbon nano-particles which results in flow problems that paddler mentioned. I have a rough porcelain dish for making large quantities of ink in a hurry, it's very rough and ink "comes out" much faster than when I use the ink stone, but the ink particles are noticeably more rough, almost a suspension instead of a colloid (which it should be). For brush calligraphy it's passable, but never for drawing and I assume not good for dip pens.

[Mangrove]

I buy ink sticks from an art supply store in a college town. The store owner says they are made by Yasutomo.

 

Yasutomo SSB112 "Extra Fine" I presume? It seems to be the standard Japanese ink stick in Europe and USA, a sign of quality? I can get one for 5,50€ per piece and Yasutomo S165 ink stone for 8,50. The oldest reference I found of ink sticks in Europe is from year 1697 in a book "Albert Durer Revived", printed at London;

 

"How to Draw Pictures with Indian ink.

Having the out Strokes of your Picture Drawn with Black Lead, and the duft of your Charcoal well wiped off with a Feather, take a stick of Indian Ink of the very best sort, for if it be whitish and hard within it is naught, and will not work well, a little place of it you may wet with fair Water, or your Spittle, which you please (tho' some do hold the latter to the better, because it is not so subject to sink into the Paper, which to be sure must be very good Dutch Paper) having thus moistuned one little piace of the Indian Ink, [...]".

Edited August 26, 2009 by Martti Kujansuu

[msacco]

Stick Ink works in a dip pen but it's kind of a pain. It won't keep in a jar and is only good for one writing session.

Punt on this one and go with HIggins Eternal. Higgins makes a lot of inks so makes sure it's ETernal.

 

Mike S.

Edited August 26, 2009 by msacco