Needlepoint liquid ink pens

[holgalee]

I like the Pilot G-tec and Hi-tec pens with 0.4 or 0.5mm tips, as well as the Pilot Hi-tecpoint v5 and Pentel Energel 0.5. I like the tips to be fine but not too fine as they feel scratchy to me. In terms of ink flow, needlepoint liquid ink pens seem very close to fountain pens, but I have yet to find one with ergonomics (girth, balance, grip) that matches that of a decent fountain pen. Moreover, the G-tec and the Hi-tec tips seem to get blocked quite easily. I'm now looking at refillable stylographic pens as a possible alternative.

 

So what do you think of needlepoint liquid ink pens and stylographic pens?

[superbleu]

Fountain pen inks tend to feather a bit more than the gel inks in the pens you use. I have never used a sylographic style pen although I have tried refilling some liquid ink rollerballs with fountain pen inks and they always lay down fatter lines with the FP inks than the standard ink that comes in the pens.

Check out the uniball signo rt in the 0.38 size. I have had good luck with these, though they do run out rather quickly.

The refills I think will fit some other signo and pilot pen bodies too.

[Tweel]

I bought some of the hyperfine Hi-Tec-C (?) pens for one of my nephews, and they were fun to try out, but in general I'm not a big fan of needle-tipped rollers. I don't like the Pilot V5 at all compared to the original V-Ball, and I stopped using EnerGels when I discovered that writing on pressure-transfer paper makes the ink break down and run out of the pen.

 

I am a big fan of technical pens, especially Marsmatic 700's, and have been for probably ~35 years, but unless you're willing to spend the time developing a feel for them, they'd be the scratchiest pens you could imagine.

 

-- Brian

[holgalee]

I am a big fan of technical pens, especially Marsmatic 700's, and have been for probably ~35 years, but unless you're willing to spend the time developing a feel for them, they'd be the scratchiest pens you could imagine.

 

-- Brian

 

I tried a Rotring Rapidograph and Isograph today, and they look and feel like cheap plasticky throw-aways. Are there other technical pens that might be suitable for writing?

[Chthulhu]

Stylographic or technical pens aren't really intended for writing; they're meant for drawing consistent lines of a specific width. You can letter with them, but slowly; actually writing with them isn't pleasant. The ink is thicker and behaves differently from fountain pen ink as well.

 

I have a couple of Koh-I-Noor Rapidograph pens that haven't been used in several years; I mailed a spare that was still in its package to an acquaintance in Texas last year becasue I knew I would never use it. :-/

[ZeissIkon]

Stylographic or technical pens aren't really intended for writing; they're meant for drawing consistent lines of a specific width. You can letter with them, but slowly; actually writing with them isn't pleasant. The ink is thicker and behaves differently from fountain pen ink as well.

 

I have a couple of Koh-I-Noor Rapidograph pens that haven't been used in several years; I mailed a spare that was still in its package to an acquaintance in Texas last year becasue I knew I would never use it. :-/

 

Actually, there were stylographics that were meant for writing, but they're a little different from technical pens. A technical pen has a squared-off tip on the tube, is intended to be used perfectly vertical to the paper, and will reliably produce a line precisely the thickness of the tip. A stylographic pen for writing has the tip of the tube rounded over, so it can be held at an angle, and because of the wire inside the tip will still write even though the tip isn't in full contact; the rounded tip and angled writing mean it's comfortable to hold, though it still produces a line with effectively no variation, and shading only on overlapping strokes with an ink that's not fully saturated, i.e. the writing is boring to look at compared to that from even the stiffest nail fountain pen nib. Stylographic pens (at least the Rapidograph I owned around 1980-1981 time frame) work perfectly with fountain pen inks (Quink Black, in my case); they work well with India ink, also, but that ink is/was selected mostly because it didn't spread on paper (so the line remained the width it was intended to be) and because it was and is the only ink for manual drafting that would work consistently on Mylar drafting film -- not because it was required by the pen.

[Chthulhu]

See? I learned something new. <G>

 

Potentially, then, I could conceivably round the end of the wire in the nib of one of my Rapidographs and make it into something more useful, yes?

[krz]

I like the Pilot G-tec and Hi-tec pens with 0.4 or 0.5mm tips, as well as the Pilot Hi-tecpoint v5 and Pentel Energel 0.5. I like the tips to be fine but not too fine as they feel scratchy to me. In terms of ink flow, needlepoint liquid ink pens seem very close to fountain pens, but I have yet to find one with ergonomics (girth, balance, grip) that matches that of a decent fountain pen. Moreover, the G-tec and the Hi-tec tips seem to get blocked quite easily. I'm now looking at refillable stylographic pens as a possible alternative.

 

So what do you think of needlepoint liquid ink pens and stylographic pens?

I've still got a handful of Rapidograph piston fillers. I liked them for drawing with India Ink but I prefer my needlepoint fountain pens with Noodler's ink now. I did collect a handfull of InkOgraphs too but I think they're all fine or fine+.

 

There's an artist I enjoyed on eBay that drew ACEO art cards, he usually drew crows with incredible style and I think he used those really fine Pilots with archival ink. I tried them out and they are pretty nice.

[Chthulhu]

Thanks to this thread, I dug out my three remaining Koh-I-Noor Rapidographs and got the two size 0 pens soaking (does anyone actually maintain them the way they're supposed to?), and found the size 2 pen had never been inked. So here I was with a virginal pen and an almost-virginal bottle of Noodler's Black ...

 

It took about a minute of tapping its butt to get it started, and it did start nicely! The pen is far less scratchy that I would have expected; I'd mostly only used the size 0 pens in the past. It writes nicely at any angle and is no rougher than the fine-nibbed Dollar demonstrator I inked with the same Noodler's this morning, and (much less than) a hair wider in its line. I'll see how it behaves in a day or so. I don't think it will be great for writing anything lengthy, but the line width suits my tastes and it will probably stay in my "rotation" for awhile. :-)

[Chthulhu]

And then, of course, the pen stopped working. It isn't clogged, and some persuasion will get it going again, but this has always been the way these pens have behaved for me. :-)

 

Maybe I'll try filling a Pentel EnerGel Needle tip with Noodler's. <G>

[ZeissIkon]

See? I learned something new. <G>

 

Potentially, then, I could conceivably round the end of the wire in the nib of one of my Rapidographs and make it into something more useful, yes?

 

First, don't pull the wire out of your technical pen if you don't have to; especially in the finer tips, those wires are literally hair fine and bend if you breath on them -- and it's effectively impossible to straighten one, you'll wind up replacing the tip. Second, it's not the wire you need to round off; it's the tube. The end of the tube on a technical pen is cut square across, with the tiniest possible radius on the outside edge of the tube end (required by the plating operation). A writing type stylographic has the outside of the tube rounded over, so instead of looking like a square cut piece of pipe, it looks more or less like the nose of a pistol bullet. If you're very patient, you could accomplish this rounding on a Rapidograph tip with a smoothing kit, but in so doing you'll cut through the chrome plating on the tube and invite corrosion (assuming the tube isn't nib-grade stainless under the chrome -- I simply don't know, and it's been almost thirty years since I owned one of these). There's a risk of putting a hook or burr on the wire in the process of doing this, however, in addition to the risk of bending the tube, leaving a burr on the inner edge that will hang up the wire or pick up paper fibers, and so forth. Probably better to just look for a stylographic writing pen if you want to try writing with the rounded end type; there was a pair of Reform Refographic pens on the Marketplace a week or two ago that were of this type, and there are certainly other models (the stylographic patents issued before WWI, as I recall, and were originally for writing pens; use of stylographics as drafting pens came a bit later).

 

Edit to add:

 

Thanks to this thread, I dug out my three remaining Koh-I-Noor Rapidographs and got the two size 0 pens soaking (does anyone actually maintain them the way they're supposed to?), and found the size 2 pen had never been inked. So here I was with a virginal pen and an almost-virginal bottle of Noodler's Black ...

 

It took about a minute of tapping its butt to get it started, and it did start nicely! The pen is far less scratchy that I would have expected; I'd mostly only used the size 0 pens in the past. It writes nicely at any angle and is no rougher than the fine-nibbed Dollar demonstrator I inked with the same Noodler's this morning, and (much less than) a hair wider in its line. I'll see how it behaves in a day or so. I don't think it will be great for writing anything lengthy, but the line width suits my tastes and it will probably stay in my "rotation" for awhile. :-)

 

 

And then, of course, the pen stopped working. It isn't clogged, and some persuasion will get it going again, but this has always been the way these pens have behaved for me. :-)

 

You should flush that #2 pen with dish soap solution and/or ammonia solution, just as you would a new fountain pen, and for the same reason -- the various operations in producing the tips can leave lubricants and mold releases on the various parts, and the detergent flush will clear those oils and oil-like substances out, allowing the ink to flow properly. The one I had in college never needed that kind of persuasion; at most, a couple touch-and-lift cycles (moving the wire up and down in the tip, which actuates a valve at the inner end to keep all the ink from just running out) always did the trick for me -- but I think Quink still had Solv-X in it in 1980. You might also try a wetter ink than Noodler's Black.

Edited August 15, 2009 by ZeissIkon

[Chthulhu]

First, don't pull the wire out of your technical pen if you don't have to; especially in the finer tips, those wires are literally hair fine and bend if you breath on them -- and it's effectively impossible to straighten one, you'll wind up replacing the tip. Second, it's not the wire you need to round off; it's the tube. The end of the tube on a technical pen is cut square across, with the tiniest possible radius on the outside edge of the tube end (required by the plating operation). A writing type stylographic has the outside of the tube rounded over, so instead of looking like a square cut piece of pipe, it looks more or less like the nose of a pistol bullet. If you're very patient, you could accomplish this rounding on a Rapidograph tip with a smoothing kit, but in so doing you'll cut through the chrome plating on the tube and invite corrosion (assuming the tube isn't nib-grade stainless under the chrome -- I simply don't know, and it's been almost thirty years since I owned one of these). There's a risk of putting a hook or burr on the wire in the process of doing this, however, in addition to the risk of bending the tube, leaving a burr on the inner edge that will hang up the wire or pick up paper fibers, and so forth. Probably better to just look for a stylographic writing pen if you want to try writing with the rounded end type; there was a pair of Reform Refographic pens on the Marketplace a week or two ago that were of this type, and there are certainly other models (the stylographic patents issued before WWI, as I recall, and were originally for writing pens; use of stylographics as drafting pens came a bit later).

 

Interesting; these appear to have the wire protruding from the tube by a visible amount and it doesn't push into the tube at all. I'll take a closer look once the bits are done soaking and get flushed.

 

You should flush that #2 pen with dish soap solution and/or ammonia solution, just as you would a new fountain pen, and for the same reason -- the various operations in producing the tips can leave lubricants and mold releases on the various parts, and the detergent flush will clear those oils and oil-like substances out, allowing the ink to flow properly. The one I had in college never needed that kind of persuasion; at most, a couple touch-and-lift cycles (moving the wire up and down in the tip, which actuates a valve at the inner end to keep all the ink from just running out) always did the trick for me -- but I think Quink still had Solv-X in it in 1980. You might also try a wetter ink than Noodler's Black.

 

Already soaking all three pens' parts; flushing will follow later today. I wish I'd thought to flush the pen *before* inking it as it had never been used before.

 

Again this was an experiment, and the results were about what I expected. A wetter ink, as you suggested, would probably do better in these pens; I think much of the feed issue is due to surface tension.

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. :-)

[ZeissIkon]

Interesting; these appear to have the wire protruding from the tube by a visible amount and it doesn't push into the tube at all. I'll take a closer look once the bits are done soaking and get flushed.

 

That's definitely not right -- the wire has to push in at least flush with the end of the tube for the pen to work correctly, and pushing the wire in is what opens the ink valve (if the tip is off the pen, you can see the valve, it's the whitish plastic piece down inside the tip, sitting over the inner end of the tube).

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. :-)

 

Glad to assist. I can't stand to see stuff not working...

[Chthulhu]

That's definitely not right -- the wire has to push in at least flush with the end of the tube for the pen to work correctly, and pushing the wire in is what opens the ink valve (if the tip is off the pen, you can see the valve, it's the whitish plastic piece down inside the tip, sitting over the inner end of the tube).

 

I'll take a *much* closer look, then.

 

Addendum: I don't have sufficient magnification to *see* the wire, but if Igently press the tip of the size 2 against my thumbnail and release it, I can feel the weight of the valve moving inside the unit. What I was seeing and thought was the wire is actually the end of the tube; it's necked down for the last little bit of its length.

 

The two size 0 units are still soaking, or rather soaking again; it's working - I can see ink trailing off and some flakes - but it's a slow process.

 

Addendum II: both size 0 units are now cleand and functional. It *is* possible to remove and reinsert the wire+valve piece without ruining it, though extreme care must be taken. I found that there were some differences between the two seemingly-identical units as well, though nothing to prevent the bits being interchangeable.

 

Glad to assist. I can't stand to see stuff not working...

 

That makes two of us: I spent just short of twenty years making some of Snap-on Tools's not-working machines into working ones before they closed the local plant four months ago. :-/

Edited August 15, 2009 by Chthulhu

[ZeissIkon]

Glad to assist. I can't stand to see stuff not working...

 

That makes two of us: I spent just short of twenty years making some of Snap-on Tools's not-working machines into working ones before they closed the local plant four months ago. :-/

 

Heh. I do pretty much the same thing for a large international industrial supply company. The distribution center where I work hasn't closed, but the volume of work is down a lot since last year (and so are my hours, though so far I still have a job). I've got a bit over five years repairing nail guns, power saws, hammer drills, impact wrenches, and so on, a bunch of different brands -- two years after expanding from just nail guns, I still repair a tool I've never seen before a couple times a month...

[ihopgod]

The Energel .5 Needle is quite great, especially for the money, though I wish it were refillable. The Hi-Tec-C .4 is also quite nice, and I enjoy the flex in the point; I do like the Cavalier because it is heavier, kinda sexy, and refillable. The Slicci .4 is a great writer, but I hate how tiny the barrel is; your fingers will cramp/burn/crumble after 2 pages. Outside of these, I like the Pilot G-2 .38, even if it is not liquid ink.