PELIKAN took my Binderized M200 away! o_O

[Frits B]

Are they not aware of the image problems this sort of behaviour creates in the age of the internet?

What image do you mean? The one of the diligent company trying to protecting itself and its customers from the threat of counterfeit?

I'm sure if the word "Pelikan" was replaced with "Montblanc" then none of this discussion would be taking place...

To the OP: I hope your pen is returned to you soon. It must be very frustrating but I hope you can understand why German customs is doing this.

Martin

It's the heavyhandedness that does the harm in this case. Pelikan is in its right to protect its interests but we are talking here about a single M200 confiscated and sent to the original manufacturer for inspection. Counterproductive at least. Even more so as trade within the EU is free, so if the OP's pen had been returned to me in Holland first - where Customs probably are less strict - and then sent on to Germany nobody would probably be any the wiser.

 

You do realize that the same European directive applies to the UK?

[publius]

You understand that you just accused the German Customs of being an accesory to theft by Pelikan?…You also understand that Pelikan has a right to it's trademark, and that they are allowed to actively stop the propogation of items bearing fake trademarks?

While I do not live in Germany, & am not a "doctor of both laws*", I am not aware of any legal theory under which the right of a party to protect its trademark or trade dress supersedes personal property rights. It is not unheard-of for merchandise to be seized, so as to prevent its sale under false pretences, but even in this sort of case a condemnation by a court of competent jurisdiction is usually necessary ; personal property is ordinarily protected much more strongly, & seizure without a previous judgement, on the instance of a private party, is an extraordinary thing. Bluntly put, except in very unusual circumstances, seizure of personal property by a private party is, & can be called by no other name than, "theft".

 

 

*To the best of my knowledge, this distinction no longer exists, but it was at one time of considerable importance.

[Flounder]

Gosh, this tale this makes me very grateful my £40 chinese iphone clone sailed straight through Britain's considerably less stringent customs, marked as a $5 'toy gift' !!

 

Fight the power old bean, I hope your pen gets through all the bureaucracy as soon as possible.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Flounder

[chartoune]

I don't really understand why you people are mad at Pelikan. I'd be greatly happy to know pelikan as a procedure to ensure their products are not faked. I don't know if you guys read a bit about the cloning issue in china, but the big companies won't admit there is a problem of such nature because 1. it's their fault, they gave them the technologie and the "details" (looking for a better word in english sorry) of the making of their products in the 90s and 2. they are affraid their image would take a blow.

 

On the other hand, the gouvernment helping Pelikan is also great because it is some form of protectionism for a product they are proud. Imagine fake scotch trying to make it through scottish customs... William Wallace would come knocking at your door...

[Edgar Allan Bo]

I'm not mad at Pelikan and there is no reason to boycott them... it's great that Pelikan care for their products and that they want to make sure that no fake imitation products are being imported and sold as "Pelikans" BUT the way how it was done in this case is a little bit out of scale... every single pen has to go to Pelikan where the best of the best experts will authenticate that the pen is really a (SURPRISE-SURPRISE!!!) Pelikan!?! Of course it's a Pelikan, what else!?! Are there even Pelikan imitations out there!?! How much shipping costs emerge from sending all these pens all around the place all the time...

 

What peeves me off about the the whole thing in the customs duty office is the fact that nobody has any clue about anything ("See, there is no name on this pen, IT SURE IS a fake!"), they all just follow "THE RULES"! Even if something is so obviously / blatant like in this case - NO! - we must follow the rules and send the Pelikan-Pen to Pelikan, where Pelikan must approve that the pen is a Pelikan-Pen, before the pen is sent all the way back again to the customs duty office... and after all the fuss I hope I'll be finally allowed to pay the import-tax and take the pen with me!

[QM2]

The situation is annoying as heck, but I think two things are clear now:

 

1. There is a reasonable explanation for the confiscation: this Pelikan shipment was flagged by virtue of being imported from the US,

and

2. Pelikan has been contacted by Richard Binder to clear the matter up.

 

So let's just wait and see before jumping to conclusions and criticizing/boycotting?

 

 

[jbn10161]

I am not aware of any legal theory under which the right of a party to protect its trademark or trade dress supersedes personal property rights.

 

1. The process of border seizure in the EC and Germany is succinctly described here: "The Measure of Border Seizure according to European Community and German Law with regard to Patents and Trademarks," http://www.grunecker.com/download/publications/border.pdf (17 June 2009, 12:00 UTC-0600)

 

2. Seems to me that there could be (don't know if there is) an issue of whether the border seizure rules are properly applied to property not intended to be introduced into the stream of commerce. In other words, is it unlawful in the EC to own a counterfeit or pirated product?

Edited June 17, 2009 by jbn10161

[nkk]

You understand that you just accused the German Customs of being an accessory to theft by Pelikan?…You also understand that Pelikan has a right to it's trademark, and that they are allowed to actively stop the propagation of items bearing fake trademarks?

While I do not live in Germany, & am not a "doctor of both laws*", I am not aware of any legal theory under which the right of a party to protect its trademark or trade dress supersedes personal property rights. It is not unheard-of for merchandise to be seized, so as to prevent its sale under false pretences, but even in this sort of case a condemnation by a court of competent jurisdiction is usually necessary ; personal property is ordinarily protected much more strongly, & seizure without a previous judgement, on the instance of a private party, is an extraordinary thing. Bluntly put, except in very unusual circumstances, seizure of personal property by a private party is, & can be called by no other name than, "theft".

 

 

*To the best of my knowledge, this distinction no longer exists, but it was at one time of considerable importance.

 

I was under the impression that once you decided to import something, slightly different laws were used. I could be wrong.

 

The truth is, I can not stand it when people without in depth knowledge of a subject state absolutes and facts about that subject with no supporting evidence. I was rather harsh on Fritz (and for that I apologize to him), but it really helps no one to just go about stating things without proof or precedent, as the case may be.

 

-Nkk

[Stylo]

Moderator's note: Let's make sure to keep meats and other things out of this thread. Let's also make an effort not to get too personal or too aggressive with our language.

 

[Silvermink]

I don't really understand why you people are mad at Pelikan. I'd be greatly happy to know pelikan as a procedure to ensure their products are not faked. I don't know if you guys read a bit about the cloning issue in china, but the big companies won't admit there is a problem of such nature because 1. it's their fault, they gave them the technologie and the "details" (looking for a better word in english sorry) of the making of their products in the 90s and 2. they are affraid their image would take a blow.

 

On the other hand, the gouvernment helping Pelikan is also great because it is some form of protectionism for a product they are proud. Imagine fake scotch trying to make it through scottish customs... William Wallace would come knocking at your door...

 

Personally, if I want to know if my item is a fake, I'll take it to a dealer. Customs actually taking it away from me at the post office would leave me pretty choked, too.

[chartoune]

I don't really understand why you people are mad at Pelikan. I'd be greatly happy to know pelikan as a procedure to ensure their products are not faked. I don't know if you guys read a bit about the cloning issue in china, but the big companies won't admit there is a problem of such nature because 1. it's their fault, they gave them the technologie and the "details" (looking for a better word in english sorry) of the making of their products in the 90s and 2. they are affraid their image would take a blow.

 

On the other hand, the gouvernment helping Pelikan is also great because it is some form of protectionism for a product they are proud. Imagine fake scotch trying to make it through scottish customs... William Wallace would come knocking at your door...

 

Personally, if I want to know if my item is a fake, I'll take it to a dealer. Customs actually taking it away from me at the post office would leave me pretty choked, too.

 

 

It is not about your personnal interest in the fakeness of you pen, it's about Pelikan's. It is you item as you bought it, but it is their name and their brand and their should be allowed to check the fakeness of it. I DO understand the issue here, about loosing your pen for a while and the crappy service at the customs, but I do back up Pelikan all the way because from what I know, they are the first to take real steps agaisnt cloning.

 

Just to give you an idea on how far cloning is gone,

 

fake eggs

http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/08/15/...a-night-market/

 

fake pills.... sold in pharmacies

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/h...rug-cover_x.htm

 

 

I'm sorry mod, I know you said no foods, but I'm not discussing it, just giving links... :hmm1:

[publius]

1. The process of border seizure in the EC and Germany is succinctly described here: "The Measure of Border Seizure according to European Community and German Law with regard to Patents and Trademarks," http://www.grunecker.com/download/publications/border.pdf (17 June 2009, 12:00 UTC-0600)

Yes, I read that, as well as the English version of the protocol you linked to earlier, & it does not seem to apply to this case. Aside from the distinction between bulk goods in transit or consigned to a reseller, & single items of personal property (to the latter of which I cannot easily construe either of these as applying), there are the terms of the motion for seizure to be considered. How likely is it that sk2yshine is included in the "reference to the place where the counterfeits are expected to be imported and the identity of the expected importer"?

This whole matter appears very irregular, & if I were involved in it, I should certainly bring it to the attention of my (hypothetical) local Bundestag representative.

 

 

 

 

It is not about your personnal interest in the fakeness of you pen, it's about Pelikan's.

"From now on, the repression will be more severe" … & we're all supposed to be better off for it? Hah! Edited June 17, 2009 by publius

[Silvermink]

It is not about your personnal interest in the fakeness of you pen, it's about Pelikan's. It is you item as you bought it, but it is their name and their brand and their should be allowed to check the fakeness of it. I DO understand the issue here, about loosing your pen for a while and the crappy service at the customs, but I do back up Pelikan all the way because from what I know, they are the first to take real steps agaisnt cloning.

 

Maybe so, but the way you had written it made me think you were saying the OP should be grateful for having had his pen taken away, a contention I would take issue with.

[Frits B]

1. The process of border seizure in the EC and Germany is succinctly described here: "The Measure of Border Seizure according to European Community and German Law with regard to Patents and Trademarks," http://www.grunecker.com/download/publications/border.pdf (17 June 2009, 12:00 UTC-0600)

Yes, I read that, as well as the English version of the protocol you linked to earlier, & it does not seem to apply to this case. Aside from the distinction between bulk goods in transit or consigned to a reseller, & single items of personal property (to the latter of which I cannot easily construe either of these as applying), there are the terms of the motion for seizure to be considered. How likely is it that sk2yshine is included in the "reference to the place where the counterfeits are expected to be imported and the identity of the expected importer"?

Exactly, the directive on account of which sk2yshine's pen was (temporarily) seized was meant to stop makers and resellers of fake goods, not to pester individuals who for reasons best known to themselves buy such goods. As a Dutch customs official once was quoted to say, "we don't care if you bring one fake Rolex into the country for your own use, but we do hit you when we see that you have four strapped to your arm; owning the things is not illegal, but selling is, and we just don't believe you when you swear that they are only gifts for good friends". The same is true in this case; sk2yshine's pen should never have been seized in the first place. And that may do Pelikan more harm than they wish for.

 

"Doctor utriusque iuris": long time no see

 

 

Edited June 17, 2009 by Frits B

[Gehaha]

Hello overseas friends,

 

maybe some information is needed.

As you all know, German products are very sought after because of their

guaranteed quality. As you can imagine, this invites unallowed copies.

Poorly the far east market has a huge amount of companies who are real

specialists in fake production. Sometimes within two weeks after the first release of a product

the fakes appear with absolute dumping prices.

It's killing some real precious and traditional companies up here (for example Rosenthal) within one or two years.

There was a "fake" exhibition some month ago, where customers could compare original and fake.

I was really impressed what the "gray and black" market can perform.

At consumer trade shows the german customs is controlling now (after ten years of ignorance).

When (chinese or korean or taiwanese) exhibitors get

confronted (the goods get confiscated), they seem to be totally unaware and the next day the fakes show up again.

 

German quality companies have decided to resolutely fight the permanent ABUSE of their work.

What our friend (sadly) experiences is the result of a real "cold war" of product piracy.

 

I think it's consumer's interest, to support the law and it's officials and the companies in fighting the criminal and destroying abuses.

I have to go 30 km to my next customs office - I bite into the lemon, because I support the defense of our companies!

The delay is annoying, but the customs office supports the companies (and european law).

 

Best,

Anna

 

P.S. I'm absolutely sure, that Richard Binder with his company will support the effort of Pelikan - he is one of the important supporters of the brand.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Gehaha

[Gehaha]

Are they not aware of the image problems this sort of behaviour creates in the age of the internet?

 

What image do you mean? The one of the diligent company trying to protecting itself and its customers from the threat of counterfeit?

 

I'm sure if the word "Pelikan" was replaced with "Montblanc" then none of this discussion would be taking place...

 

To the OP: I hope your pen is returned to you soon. It must be very frustrating but I hope you can understand why German customs is doing this.

 

Martin

 

How right you are! :roflmho: :roflmho: :roflmho:

 

Anna

 

[Gehaha]

Sad to say German customs are the most proactive in the world. There have been a number of high profile cases recently where they have literally stormed conferences and exhibitions and pulled equipment off of stands. They don't actually need anything more than a suspicion to do this and there have also been some very embarrassing climb downs when it has been found out that the 'tip offs' have come from competitors.

 

It's a crazy situation but the German customs are actually acting completely within their rights. They will have been given a blanket request from Pelikan and that is all they need. It is unfortunate that the particular customs official seems so officious.

 

Your only option really is to be patent. Any complaining will probably result in a closing of ranks and an extension of the time taken.

 

Fakes, copies, counterfeits without permission are not products of "competitors" - we don't have to deal with

innocent and goodwilling people. To take a foreign product, copying it willingly AND selling it as "pseudo-competitor" is criminal at will.

 

Sad, but true.

 

Anna

 

[Deirdre]

Personally, if I want to know if my item is a fake, I'll take it to a dealer. Customs actually taking it away from me at the post office would leave me pretty choked, too.

This is, in fact, part of Customs's job in any country.

 

Frankly, I'd worry a lot more about imports coming from countries known for pen manufacture, which the US no longer is.

[Kimo]

I agree that Customs has not only the right, but the responsibility to check to be sure someone is not importing forgeries into their country, and especially forgeries of trademarked items made by companies that are based in their country. I have no doubt that Pelikan petitioned the German government under appropriate German laws for redress and this is what is going on. Pelikan did not confiscate the pen, the German government did and Pelikan is being given the chance by the German government to check to be sure it is not a forgery. Also keep in mind that the original poster said it was coming by mail. In other words, it was being transported by the Government of Germany's postal system to the recipient. I would be inappropriate for the government of Germany to allow their postal system to be used for illicit purposes and so they also have every right to check anything they are transporting.

 

I have not seen anything in what the poster described that they are taking his pen, only that they are checking it with the experts (Pelikan) and that if it is real they will return it to him. I would much rather have Pelikan do that kind of check than a less expert customs agent who could make a mistake.

 

As some others have mentioned, it sounds like a bother but overall it makes me respect Pelikan more for wanting to be sure people are getting their real products and not some cheap forgery. If anything, we should all get together and everyone buy another Pelikan from an authorized dealer.

[rwilsonedn]

It seems we are drifting away from the original point: the conflict between a company protecting its commercial interest against foreign competitors and the responsibility of a country to protect the rights of its citizens. As another poster said earlier, when an individual's right to property is subjugated to the interests of a company's profit margin, without due process for that individual, something has gone profoundly wrong. One can only hope that this is an isolated case of poor judgement and not the tip of an iceberg. I should think that if this is an isolated misunderstanding, Pelikan will return the pen at once with an apology and compensation, and clarify to the customs authorities that they do not want inspectors to seize individual pens legally purchased by individuals. If this is not a misunderstanding, I for one will reconsider my feelings about Pelikan products permanently.

ron