Original English Roundhand

[Achim]

If you're still with me, my question is very simple. I've been studying this form of lettering for more years than I care to remember, and one thing has always bothered me. Does anyone know of the existence of a piece of original lettering in this style, before it was copied by an engraver and produced as a book? It's difficult to believe that not a single piece of original work has survived, but I've never seen or heard of one. Can anyone out there, help?

 

Ken

 

Alexander Nesbitt has an example of a predecessor to Copperplate from the first part of the 18th century in his book "History and Technique of Lettering" (I don't have the book at hand now, but I think it was around page 55). You probably wont like what he has to say about Zaner's Copperplate, though. But I partly agree with him - the older script that he compares to the Zaner version is more agreeable and attractive - I'd say it has more "soul" than the more austere modern English Roundhand.

 

b.t.w.: the "Wednesday-Test-DVD" arrived safe and sound in Berlin yesterday - thank you!

 

Edit: I was wrong - it's on page 118 - but I just read the text next to it and it says it's from an engraved book, so not what you're looking for. And the Zaner Roundhand can be found on page 153 - "the final emergence of an impersonal, sterile letter" [sic] :roflmho:

Edited May 27, 2009 by Achim

[JeffB]

I came on an example of Jane Austen's handwriting recently, located here: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/hill/austen/p230f.gif. Aside from her use of a reverse-tailed "d", I've been taking this as a nice example of a "working" Roundhand. This letter is dated 1815, but she would have been taught the style around 1785 or so (born in 1775). This writing would have been the product of a quill pen.

[Jamesiv1]

Hi Ken,

 

Yes, we've talked about this in the Ornamental Penmanship group as well. It is soooo hard to believe that all of those beautiful, hand-written specimens have not survived. They must be out there somewhere.

 

Please keep us posted if you come across some samples from the Masters.

 

Best regards,

 

James Ivey

[dcwaites]

I sent you a personal message but I'm struggling to get access to my messages so could you please reply (if so inclined!) in this thread.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the style of handwriting taught in British schools in the 40s 50s and 60s was influenced by English Roundhand, known as 'Copperplate'. I don't remember it having a specific name. This now, has largely become replaced by a form of italic where ascenders and descenders are straight instead of looped.

In the USA a different route was followed through the pioneering work of Platt Rogers Spencer and his first copybook was published in 1855. This style came to dominate virtually all handwriting taught in the USA, being further developed by Austin Norman Palmer around 35 years later. It would appear to be still the dominant style throughout the USA today although italic has its share of devotees.

 

I must stress that I am not an authority on the history of handwriting in general, and would be obliged if the more erudite among us, can "put me straight", if any of the above is incorrect!

 

Ken

 

I was taught both styles at primary school. In 1962-63, I was taught the first style, using dip pens, of course.

When I joined the FPN, I started looking around for examples of that style, and couldn't find any. I came to the conclusion, like you, that it is a nameless version of English Roundhand.

 

In 1964-65, I was taught the second style, then called 'Modified Cursive', now called something else.

If I write with a crow-quill pen, or a narrow Italic, and take care, it can even look attractive.

The idea of this style was that it was quicker to lift the pen from the bottom of the descenders and go straight to the next letter. However, I find that when I am writing quickly, I don't lift the pen, and so have complete loops and connectors. However, it is a very fast style of writing, although in my case, if I go too fast, I descend into illegibility...

 

 

[ZeissIkon]

In the USA a different route was followed through the pioneering work of Platt Rogers Spencer and his first copybook was published in 1855. This style came to dominate virtually all handwriting taught in the USA, being further developed by Austin Norman Palmer around 35 years later. It would appear to be still the dominant style throughout the USA today although italic has its share of devotees.

 

For whatever it's worth, I was taught "Palmer Method" cursive writing in "penmanship" class, starting in third or fourth grade, and initially using pencil, then ball point pens. I hated it almost from day one and eventually (during my fountain pen days in high school and college) developed my own hybrid style, with the first letter of a word in a manuscript style but the remainder a slightly simplified cursive -- except for a few letters that never, ever get connected to the next one. It's fast, legible when my hand isn't cramping, and works well with both ball point and fountain pens. When I'm writing slowly, it can even be beautiful, in an austere way.

[tipstricks]

I've had an interesting trip today, starting from a living engraver's website: Evan Lindquist

http://www.evanlindquist.com

In one of his pages is well descripted the copperplate engraving process, he prints the plates in the traditional process of intaglio printing:

http://web.me.com/evanlindquist/art/Burin.html

You can download three presentations (Pdf files) about engraving and printing:

http://web.me.com/evanlindquist/art/Burin_...urinReprint.pdf

http://web.me.com/evanlindquist/art/Burin_...pt1-Reprint.pdf

http://web.me.com/evanlindquist/art/Burin_...pt2-Reprint.pdf

a really interesting document.

Furthermore one of the links in his webpages goes (return!) to Iampeth website, showing an original copybook handwritten in copperplate style by his swedish grandfather's tutor (Claus J. Sjögren) in the middle of 19th century:

http://www.iampeth.com/books/evan_lindquist/copybkmain.php

I can't recognize if this copybook is written with quill or steel nib (they were born in that era), but can it seems one of the original works you are looking for?

[caliken]

Absolutely fascinating reading! The photos and description of the use of the burin are really enlightening. This copybook, which is original writing, may never have been copied by engraving. In the absence of the original writings of the English masters a century earlier, this is a marvelous insight into writing tuition via an original copybook, and the earliest I've seen. Thanks for posting!

 

Ken

Edited June 3, 2009 by caliken

[Mangrove]

Does anyone know of the existence of a piece of original lettering in this style, before it was copied by an engraver and produced as a book?

 

Hello Ken,

 

I found this "copybook" made in 1793. It does not include any alphabet training, but it has quite a collection of different types of copperplate flourishes.

 

Martti

 

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3699/getimagewdm.jpg

 

Edited August 4, 2009 by Martti Kujansuu

[caliken]

 

Martti :

 

Thanks for posting this example of 18th century script which has been photographed directly from the original. Although it's fascinating to see, it's not well written. What I'm hoping to find, eventually, is a direct copy just like this, but written by a writing master prior to engraving and reproduction. These books were produced specifically for the instruction of handwriting. I'm curious to know the extent to which these writings were modified (improved) by the engraving process prior to printing.

 

Nevertheless, thank you again for taking the time to post this very early example.

 

Ken

Edited August 5, 2009 by caliken

[Jamesiv1]

Martti :

 

Thanks for posting this example of 18th century script which has been photographed directly from the original. Although it's fascinating to see, it's not well written. What I'm hoping to find, eventually, is a direct copy just like this, but written by a writing master prior to engraving and reproduction. These books were produced specifically for the instruction of handwriting. I'm curious to know the extent to which these writings were modified (improved) by the engraving process prior to printing.

 

Nevertheless, thank you again for taking the time to post this very early example.

 

Ken

 

Hi Ken,

 

How are you coming along in this quest?

 

I'm right there with you... I would REALLY love to see some pre-engraved writing from some of the old English Masters.

 

It baffles the mind that they are so hard to find. Surely, surely they exist. Hidden away in dark, musky dungeons behind lock and key, perhaps...

 

James

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jamesiv1

[caliken]

 

How are you coming along in this quest?

 

I'm right there with you... I would REALLY love to see some pre-engraved writing from some of the old English Masters.

 

It baffles the mind that they are so hard to find. Surely, surely they exist. Hidden away in dark, musky dungeons behind lock and key, perhaps...

 

James

 

Hi James,

 

No luck, I'm afraid. For those who don't already know, here's a brief history of the situation.

 

From 1733, George Bickham gathered together the best examples of writing from more than 20 English writing masters, produced copper engravings from these examples and published them in parts over the next eight years. This collection, comprising 212 pages, resulted in "The Universal Penman" This magnificent book is still in print and continues to sell well...I'm on my second copy, the first having fallen apart through use, some years ago.

 

Jamesiv1, myself and no doubt, many others, are baffled by the total absence of any of the original writings by the Masters, prior to engraving. It would be fascinating to see the degree of alteration produced by the hand engraving process.

 

Incidentally, I have a copy of the small booklet "Penmanship Made Easy - Young Clerks Assistant" written and engraved by George Bickham at the same time as the above. It is a book of instruction and it makes intriguing reading. Firstly, he explains the technique of writing English Roundhand (Copperplate) among other styles, with a firm quill with a small edged 'nib'. His subsequent engravings however, are made with a pointed burin, and as such, are impossible to copy with an edged nib! For anyone attempting to follow his instructions, this must have been the source of great frustration, and led to the adoption of the flexible pointed pen, in order to imitate the results of the engraver's burin.

 

caliken

Edited December 4, 2009 by caliken

[Maria]

Dear Caliken;

 

Do peek at this link, to see if this may be of assistance:

 

http://www.panteek.com/Bickham/index.htm

 

Like to have your observations and comments also please

 

Thank you!

 

Maria W.

[caliken]

Maria:

 

Like "The Universal Penman" these are engravings from original writing and drawing. These plates may be well-known to others, but I've never seen them before.

It's interesting to see that these prints have survived all those years. They are quite beautiful and a real find as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for posting!

 

Ken

Edited December 10, 2009 by caliken

[AD356]

Amazing Prints!!

I love the writing in the music and Universal Penman prints(and reprints) thanks very much for posting.

[fifthblackbird]

QUOTE (caliken @ May 20 2009, 03:47 PM) Does anyone know of the existence of a piece of original lettering in this style, before it was copied by an engraver and produced as a book?

 

Hello Ken,

 

I found this "copybook" made in 1793. It does not include any alphabet training, but it has quite a collection of different types of copperplate flourishes.

 

Martti

 

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3699/getimagewdm.jpg

 

 

Curious historical question here... on the first title page of this Manuscript, someone figured the number of minutes in 1793 years. However, they kick off with 13 months per year! I've never encountered a 13-month calendar, and the manuscript was written half a century before the Positivist Calendar. Was a different 13-month calendar in use in 1793, or was this exciting math written much later than the rest of the document?

 

Fascinating!

[mstone]

Curious historical question here... on the first title page of this Manuscript, someone figured the number of minutes in 1793 years. However, they kick off with 13 months per year! I've never encountered a 13-month calendar, and the manuscript was written half a century before the Positivist Calendar. Was a different 13-month calendar in use in 1793, or was this exciting math written much later than the rest of the document?

This is why your math teacher made you show your work. :roflmho:

[KateGladstone]

Efforts to reform our current calendar include, as far back as 1745, a 13-month proposal:

some details here

and here.

[caliken]

Efforts to reform our current calendar include, as far back as 1745, a 13-month proposal:

Great idea! If there were 13 months in a year, I'd only be 65. (I'm actually 71). :roflmho:

[KateGladstone]

Efforts to reform our current calendar include, as far back as 1745, a 13-month proposal:

Great idea! If there were 13 months in a year, I'd only be 65. (I'm actually 71). :roflmho:

 

No -- because 13-month calendar proposals typically make every month exactly 28 days long, so that every month is exactly 4 weeks long and so that all months begin on the same weekday:

4x7x13=364:

with the extra days (required to keep the calendar in sync with the sun) lumped together as an end-of-year several-day holiday which belongs to no month whatsoever (and whose days are given no weekday-names whatsoever -- although still counted as part of the year).

 

 

So, Caliken, you would still be 71 years old under any such system.

[iambics]

I came across an old record book in the past year which was written in what appears to be Copperplate. The style is similar to those examples that have been posted here previously.

 

The photograph included with this post is from the original document that was written in late 1827.

 

Gary