Maybe Cursive just give up and die already?

[James Pickering]

  JakobS said:

.......... I myself am looking to make the Running Bookhand I am practicing into an everyday hand. But, I need to find either a smaller italic nib or pen and nib to do so, My Rotring Artpen 2.3mm just isn't practical for notes, stories and such ...........

Yes, Jacob, I have found that a narrow/fine nib really enhances the delicacy of the humanistic small roman letterforms. I frequently use vintage fountain pens with pointed flexible nibs as here:

http://jp29.org/cal72a.jpg

 

James

 

[KateGladstone]

This:

"Micro-evolution is indeed science and is hardly controversial. Macro-evolution is a scientific theory ... "

 

reminds me ineluctably and amusingly of this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/dec96.html

 

[irish_monk]

I don't use either...I guess we don't need to teach those things. Like we really need to give young people the opportunity to decide whether they want to be a mathemetician or biologist.

[irish_monk]

 

Yes -- I wonder whether "Irish_Monk" would like to go back in a time machine, a few hundred years or so, and tell Michelangelo, Queen Elizabeth I, Copernicus, Mercator, Erasmus and/or Raphael (Italic handwriters all -- and all living well before the invention of the cursive that the Monk so vaunts), "You underdeveloped intellects! Cursive hasn't been invented yet, so you will never become a society of creative free thinkers: all you can ever accomplish is to regurgitate whatever was handed down to you!"

 

 

I guess sarcasm is going the way of cursive....I wish we had a little emoticom for that so people would "get it".

[James Pickering]

Jacob: I should have included this:

 

http://jp29.org/cal371b.jpg

 

As usual, the ballpoint pen is hard to control well when rendering letterforms:

 

James

[KateGladstone]

Re:

"Ms. Gladstone, that you've seen the drawings does not mean you've ever visited the caves even once. If so, you would have seen not only the very touristic drawings but the signs, the impressions left by feet, hands, fingers, the utensils. Not only it can be known through DNA forensics and anthropological techniques if it was a man, a woman, a kid, is that I can tell you the height, age, color of eye& hair, wounds and illnesses they've suffered and which they were prone to, what they ate and if they are enough remains, put in front of you a very accurate 3D image of the person. It can also be determined if the art of an specific wall comes from a group or a single hand, and if that hand, that day was arthritic or not and if they preferred the far right hand corner to poo or if they dwelt in the cozy and warm one with their deities on the roof in the cold winter months."

 

Thanks for that very interesting and useful information -- has it really established that the shamans were only medicine MEN? (No female shamans? how disappointing ... )

 

Re:

"Personal written expression was born then, and not with Palmer's method, and thus my affirmation that is has evolved but it hasn't changed ( so please don't twist my semantics and syntax)."

 

You said first that "cursive" originated then, and now you say that "personal written expression" originated then. Hmmm, when you say or write the word "cursive," do you actually mean "personal written expression" instead of meaning what the word "cursive" usually refers to?

Please also explain to me how something would evolve while remaining unchanged: I don't see how. (Would you actually claim, for instance, that cursive has never changed?)

 

Re:

"The spirit of being able to write, and do it in a unique, personal way was born with Humanity, and it will cease when we're gone."

Sure -- but a spirit isn't a form of handwriting. "The spirit of being able to write," etc., isn't synonymous with "writing in a particular way."

 

Re:

"Why do you infer I'm a foreign or foreign to the US educational system?"

 

I guessed this (incorrectly) from noticing that your syntax does not resemble that of most native speakers of English (whether educated or uneducated). Presumably, your international background explains what I noticed in your English.

 

Thanks for the Icelandic and Finnish samples you showed -- which American schoolteachers (in my experience and observation) would regard as "definitely NOT cursive" because of the letter-forms and the lack of 100% joining. In other words, writing like that (even if done in English) would mean a failing grade for the writer in a cursive class -- no matter how beautifully, legibly, or rapidly s/he wrote.

 

Re:

"the 'monoline Italic styles' used in Iceland and Finland, explaining they are used there due to the specific linguistic and sociopolitical idiosyncrasy of those countries as in both cases they have besides Latin alphabet, characters and runic letters (see below for those curious) ... "

 

I knew about Iceland and Faroese having a runic letter or two in their (otherwise Latin) alphabet. I didn't know about Finnish having any runic letters -- my Finnish friends tell me that Finnish has NO runic letters in its alphabet, and when I look at textbooks of Finnish (or at other books/written materials in Finnish) I can't see any runic letters anywhere in them Can you please tell me which of the letters in the Finnish alphabet (e.g., as given on the page you referred me to -- http://www.omniglot.com/writing/finnish.htm ) are actually runic letters? (I trust you know that the bracketed letters on any Omniglot language page are International Phonetic Association [iPA] symbols and NOT the alphabet of the language actually discussed on that page!)

 

And if (as you claim) the 'monoline Italic styles' used in Iceland and Finland ... are used there due to the specific linguistic and sociopolitical idiosyncrasy of those countries" ... just how (in your view) did the "linguistic and sociopolitical idiosyncrasy of those countries" cause them to use that style ... and why (if the languages play a part in that) didn't those countries use such a style until the mid- or late 20th century? (since the Icelandic and Finnish languages existed long, long before their nations adopted Italic styles).

 

Re:

"when you receive a letter from those countries, you see a perfectly legible, recognizable writing, made of mostly familiar characters with or without the ligature that would formally make it a 'cursive'." --

 

True: a perfectly legible, recognizable writing, produced (as you say) by people who "have outstanding educational systems" ... yet definitely NOT what most people on this forum (or most teachers in USA classrooms) regard as "cursive."

 

 

Just in case anyone was wondering which exotic hand they are teaching.

 

"the same Farlex online dictionary offers a very explicit thesaurus section where italic, copperplate and minuscules are considered synonyms. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cursive"

 

Thesauri, then, can err. When the words "italic, copperplate and minuscules are considered synonyms" (of the word "cursive," or of each other), that makes as little sense as any other confusion of definitions. (Some thesauri list "nation" and "region" as synonyms of "continent" -- which does not, in my opinion, make such breadth of definition particularly useful: let alone truthful).

 

Re:

"I've never affirmed that there is no variation on the standard cursive types in each country, ... "

 

Since you didn't mean any such thing, what exactly did you mean when you claimed that cursive doesn't change?

Edited April 8, 2009 by KateGladstone

[KateGladstone]

Re:

"Kate ... is somewhat fanatical about using an italic-based writing style in which letters all have the same basic form, with joins added if desired."

 

My love for Italic doesn't prevent me from working with students of other styles (and doing such work WITHIN their style) when asked to do so -- John Corwin (http://www.flexinibpens.com) has only praise for my help with his definitely non-Italic, definitely post-Italic 10)% connected cursive. (Ask him, if you wish to verify this.)

[KateGladstone]

Re:

"Robert Heinlein had a list of things a person should know before he/she can attain full citizenship. I think it is a short list."

 

It follows here (from his novel TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE) --

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

 

I can think of one or two folks hereabouts (and elsewhere in the handwriting world) who might enjoy testing my ability to fulfill Heinlein Criterion #21 ... no joke: I've more than once received death threats from graphologists, providers of cursive penmanship instruction, and other less describable devotees of handwriting. (Ask me sometime about the man who regarded Italic handwriting as a joint conspiracy involving /a/ the Communist Party, /b/ the descendants of reptilian UFO crews, and /c/ the Church of Satan, Incorporated ... )

[irish_monk]

You miss my point entirely. I'm speaking in the context of public education, in particular in Ohio. Things may be different where you live. My experience as a teacher is that much of the student body has been conditioned to simplification and standardization. Innovation and creativity are eschewed for formulas or memorization. If any of those people you mentioned were alive today they probably would not write with an italic hand. If they were my age they would probably know cursive from their lessons in the third grade. If they were 10 or 15 years younger they might just print. Further if Michaelangelo were around today he would not be painting the ceilings of churches as that patronage is not common any more (I guess this is a valid argument given the time machine thing). I suppose if Mike really wanted to he could learn cursive just like I learned insular minuscule, insular majuscule, several gothic styles, and a spattering of Spencerian and Copperplate. No doubt everyone here has a particular agenda but I think this has all been taken too seriously when it should have been taken with a grain of salt. (Yes, I do understand that the preceding paragraph is hipocritical in light of the last sentence).

 

 

  KateGladstone said:

  Titivillus said:

  irish_monk said:

Most of my students cannot read or write cursive very well. I write in it exclusively. It requires a different type of thinking that is underdeveloped in education. Thus we are left with people who can only regurgitate that which is handed to them rather than develop a society of creative free thinkers.

 

I find this comment interesting. How exactly is learning the gestures to print and the gestures to write cursive different enough that without the latter there are no free thinkers?

 

When did cursive become this amazing mind expanding technique? How is the printing on regurgitating information while cursive is beyond art. :roflmho:

 

K

 

Yes -- I wonder whether "Irish_Monk" would like to go back in a time machine, a few hundred years or so, and tell Michelangelo, Queen Elizabeth I, Copernicus, Mercator, Erasmus and/or Raphael (Italic handwriters all -- and all living well before the invention of the cursive that the Monk so vaunts), "You underdeveloped intellects! Cursive hasn't been invented yet, so you will never become a society of creative free thinkers: all you can ever accomplish is to regurgitate whatever was handed down to you!"

 

[MYU]

  Ondina said:

  MYU said:

As Dylan said so poignantly, "The times, they are a changin'."

 

I think it's great having cursive writing classes available. But to mandate teaching it is... well, so unnecessary in this computer age we now live in. Just as people moved on from having to use fountain pens in school, so soon shall it be with cursive writing. I already know of some elementary schools that do not teach cursive--just printing.

 

Don't get me wrong... I think it's a worthwhile thing to learn. However, given the limited bandwidth and budget in school systems these days, there are other things that take priority. Sadly...

 

Hum.....I'm going to demand San Serif next time in Times Square, Piazza Espagna, Ulan Bator, Lagos, Beijing and Quito and report results back......

:blink: I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you clarify which part you're replying to and elaborate? Thanks.

[MYU]

  voop said:

  Titivillus said:

When was the last time you used calculus or talked about cell division. :roflmho: :roflmho: :roflmho:

 

Really now?

 

The former, that would be about 2h ago or so. The latter would be a couple of hours earlier.

 

Believe it or not, humanity needs both calculus and cell division....

I think Kurt really meant "you" as the "average human being". Someone who practices calculus and studies cellular division is an extreme minority of the population. Important, but very small nonetheless.

[Ondina]

  MYU said:

  Ondina said:

  MYU said:

As Dylan said so poignantly, "The times, they are a changin'."

 

I think it's great having cursive writing classes available. But to mandate teaching it is... well, so unnecessary in this computer age we now live in. Just as people moved on from having to use fountain pens in school, so soon shall it be with cursive writing. I already know of some elementary schools that do not teach cursive--just printing.

 

Don't get me wrong... I think it's a worthwhile thing to learn. However, given the limited bandwidth and budget in school systems these days, there are other things that take priority. Sadly...

 

Hum.....I'm going to demand San Serif next time in Times Square, Piazza Espagna, Ulan Bator, Lagos, Beijing and Quito and report results back......

:blink: I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you clarify which part you're replying to and elaborate? Thanks.

 

Sorry. I meant computer age is not so widespread and that if you stop and ask for anything written anywhere in the world, is unlikely you will get a printer's page in San Serif ( a common PC font, as you know) in return, but a jotted down piece of paper on any flavor of longhand you can imagine.

[Ondina]

Agreeing with you on that present standardization means lowering quality and that innovation and creativity are wiped off today's classes.

As for patronage and not going around painting ceilings.....hum.. not so sure. There's another Miquel around that still is doing it;

http://www.artespain.com/23-10-2007/notici...upula-de-la-onu

Images of UN meeting room by Miquel Barceló.

He writes longhand, by the way. And I think I still prefer the Sixtine Chapel's.

 

  irish_monk said:

You miss my point entirely. I'm speaking in the context of public education, in particular in Ohio. Things may be different where you live. My experience as a teacher is that much of the student body has been conditioned to simplification and standardization. Innovation and creativity are eschewed for formulas or memorization. If any of those people you mentioned were alive today they probably would not write with an italic hand. If they were my age they would probably know cursive from their lessons in the third grade. If they were 10 or 15 years younger they might just print. Further if Michaelangelo were around today he would not be painting the ceilings of churches as that patronage is not common any more (I guess this is a valid argument given the time machine thing). I suppose if Mike really wanted to he could learn cursive just like I learned insular minuscule, insular majuscule, several gothic styles, and a spattering of Spencerian and Copperplate. No doubt everyone here has a particular agenda but I think this has all been taken too seriously when it should have been taken with a grain of salt. (Yes, I do understand that the preceding paragraph is hipocritical in light of the last sentence).

[Randal6393]

  irish_monk said:

... I'm speaking in the context of public education, in particular in Ohio. Things may be different where you live. My experience as a teacher is that much of the student body has been conditioned to simplification and standardization. Innovation and creativity are eschewed for formulas or memorization. ...

 

Hear, hear! Irish monk, that hits the concept that I feel this thread is really all about.

 

An education is supposed to teach a person to be flexible mentally and to increase one's potential for problem-solving. America's concept of education seems to be at odds, at times and in places, with this idea. Or people have differing ideas of what process should be used.

 

Teaching various forms of writing appears to me to be one way of working towards those goals. As does teaching good habits of reading and the basics of arithmetic and mathematics. It seems to me that the infamous three R's should be a basic of education, the foundation of higher learning. Be that higher learning in the arts, finance, science, or whatever. I could care less whether children are taught to write Copperplate, Italic, or Block Lettering. As long as they are taught.

 

Scholastically inclined,

[Ondina]

Thanks for trying to give me a hand in an elegant way. I hope the editing solved it satisfactorily. Actually, I shamelessly confess to have put in practice an old technique of a weathered fisherman we know. People and fish show their true self when you put in front of them the right bait. Is a quick way to differentiate a bad afternoon from a trait of character. Line, hook and sinker, sadly.

 

As you, one of the reasons for perusing this sub forum is the same thrilling sensation you get while in front of the work of an artist. Some posters show stunning handwriting and most others if not all, personal and beautiful ones. Makes you stare for hours, study every character, the slant, the text as a whole, the person that it belongs to. Some have historical connotations attached to them, showing peculiarities of the personality of the author. Overall, a pleasure for the senses and a privilege to see, no matter if cursive, italic or whatever the formal definition may be. How this contagious bug got me, I ignore, but adds such a joy to my days that giving it up is impossible as it became part of myself and goes along any humble thing I may do. So thanks to all who share it.

 

 

 

 

 

  Anne-Sophie said:

  KateGladstone said:

  Ondina said:

Me, and most people I know who cares about the education of their children will directly take their kids out of a school who, not only teaches cursive, but that emphasizes it.

 

So pelegrim, I'm very pro-cursive, pro reading, comprehension and mostly pro a good sound education.

 

As you see it, Ondina, does favoring "a good sound education" include favoring standard English grammar?

 

 

Kate, it's a typo. Ondina just typed too fast and forgot to put quote between a and education or forgot to remove the "a" before posting.

 

She and Judybug love cursive and so do I. We both have as much right to love cursive as you love italics.

 

Because it is a matter of feelings, denigrating the love we have for cursive with all sorts of scientific or pseudo-scientific arguments is pointless.

 

 

While scrolling caliken pages, I find myself relaxed at the sight of cursive handwriting and tense at the sight of italics, I don't even look at some form of handwriting which remind me of negative historical events.

 

I also visited James Pickering pages, I find that Cataneo's hand has a pleasing roundness to it. I even took two of the capital letter forms for use, in a modified way, in my own handwriting.

 

 

It is really great that we have a choice of some many form of roman letters handwritings.

 

I cannot wait to see examples of Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Greek, Gujarati, Hebrew, Hindi, Kanji, Punjabi... handwriting and calligraphy in this, the reviews and the picture forum.

 

So that we might be appreciate the beauty of the many ways fountain pens are used all over the world.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2009 by Ondina

[HDoug]

  Ondina said:

As you, one of the reasons for perusing this sub forum is the same thrilling sensation you get while in front of the work of an artist. Some posters show stunning handwriting and most others if not all, personal and beautiful ones. Makes you stare for hours, study every characters, the slant, the text as a whole, the person that it belongs to. Some have historical connotations attached to them, showing peculiarities of the personality of the author. Overall, a pleasure for the senses and a privilege to see, no matter if cursive, italic or whatever the formal definition may be. How this contagious bug got me, I ignore, but adds such a joy to my days that giving it up is impossible as it became part of myself and goes along any humble thing I may do. So thanks to all who share it.

 

Yes! I ditto this. Me too. +1.

 

Doug

[Titivillus]

  MYU said:

  voop said:

  Titivillus said:

When was the last time you used calculus or talked about cell division. :roflmho: :roflmho: :roflmho:

 

Really now?

 

The former, that would be about 2h ago or so. The latter would be a couple of hours earlier.

 

Believe it or not, humanity needs both calculus and cell division....

I think Kurt really meant "you" as the "average human being". Someone who practices calculus and studies cellular division is an extreme minority of the population. Important, but very small nonetheless.

 

 

Yes that's what I meant. There is a need for specialized knowledge everywhere but should everyone be required to know it?

[Johnny Appleseed]

  Titivillus said:

  MYU said:

  voop said:

  Titivillus said:

When was the last time you used calculus or talked about cell division. :roflmho: :roflmho: :roflmho:

 

Really now?

 

The former, that would be about 2h ago or so. The latter would be a couple of hours earlier.

 

Believe it or not, humanity needs both calculus and cell division....

I think Kurt really meant "you" as the "average human being". Someone who practices calculus and studies cellular division is an extreme minority of the population. Important, but very small nonetheless.

 

 

Yes that's what I meant. There is a need for specialized knowledge everywhere but should everyone be required to know it?

 

Everyone should be exposed to it as part of the high-school curriculum. Calculus does not need to be mandatory, but I think all HS students should be exposed to it, along with the practical applications of it (which I find makes the math make a lot more sense). Every HS student should probably take a full year of chemistry, biology and physics, and I would hope that the basics of cell division would be part of that. It does not need to be in-depth, graduate level understanding, but a basic understanding of how life and the universe operates should be part of the education of nearly all kids.

 

John

Edited April 8, 2009 by Johnny Appleseed

[Titivillus]

  Johnny Appleseed said:

Everyone should be exposed to it as part of the high-school curriculum. Calculus does not need to be mandatory, but I think all HS students should be exposed to it, along with the practical applications of it (which I find makes the math make a lot more sense). Every HS student should probably take a full year of chemistry, biology and physics, and I would hope that the basics of cell division would be part of that. It does not need to be in-depth, graduate level understanding, but a basic understanding of how life and the universe operates should be part of the education of nearly all kids.

 

John

 

 

I don't disagree with this but consider the difference between being exposed to these topics and the amount of time that cursive is being taught to elementary school students.

 

The book I'm reading also brings up some interesting questions about muscle and coordination development & whether students are able to perform the tasks for writing at the time that they are being taught.

 

K

[voop]

  MYU said:

  voop said:

  Titivillus said:

When was the last time you used calculus or talked about cell division. :roflmho: :roflmho: :roflmho:

 

Really now?

 

The former, that would be about 2h ago or so. The latter would be a couple of hours earlier.

 

Believe it or not, humanity needs both calculus and cell division....

I think Kurt really meant "you" as the "average human being". Someone who practices calculus and studies cellular division is an extreme minority of the population. Important, but very small nonetheless.

 

Certainly, and I understood that as well.

 

However I submit that the purpose of the basic educational cycle (up to and including high-school, say) is to produce well-rounded, generally educated world citizens, as well as to provide sufficient stimulus to allow what is commonly called "mental pathways" to form. This includes learning both the basics of biology (of which cellular division certainly is a part), calculus, ancient Greek history, art history, physics, multiple foreign languages, sports and a lot of other stuff -- certainly, including multiple forms of writing.

 

I am not a professional footballer, however I strongly believe that the sports that I was subjected to has been beneficial to my development. I am not a Greek scholar, yet I believe that I am richer for having studied their art.

 

The basic educational cycle is, in my mind, less about learning directly applicable skills, than it is about general education and individual development.