Maybe Cursive just give up and die already?

[QM2]

Oh God, today the projector broke during my lecture and instead of using PowerPoint, for the last 30 minutes of the talk I had to print on the board. It was pretty funny, because I am almost incapable of writing non-cursive. Cursive it was then. The students were affectionatey amused at my inability to print.

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2009 by QM2

[Titivillus]

  Paddler said:

The person who has been taught to write well will have the fine motor skills he can use elsewhere: repairing circuit boards, or brain surgery.

 

Paddler

 

 

Once again I'm not saying get rid of writing completely just cursive

 

And maybe someone without the fine motor skills shouldn't be doing brain surgery

Edited April 5, 2009 by Titivillus

[WendyNC]

  Titivillus said:

Maybe shorthand should be taught in school rather than cursive, it gives the benefits of a much faster writing

 

This makes an incredible amount of sense to me. Since the subject of the usefulness of cursive came up a few weeks ago, I've been thinking about it far more than is warranted for someone without children or grandchildren. I've also been paying attention to the instances when I use cursive as a form of communication, either to others or to create reference information for myself. Some form of shorthand would do the job much better.

 

But, and this is a big but: is there a form of shorthand which is international? A quick Google search does not turn one up.

 

 

[RayMan]

  Titivillus said:

  RayMan said:

  Titivillus said:

  RayMan said:

If the argument is that we all use computers to communicate, therefore making cursive unnecessary, doesn't the same argument apply to printing? So why teach printing?

 

Because we do not all use computers to communicate all the time. There is still a need to learn printing

 

Actually, I would agree that because we do not all use computers (and texting) to communicate all the time, there is still a need to learn how to write by hand. If does not logically follow, however, that writing should be limited to printing.

 

 

I never said that writing should be limited if you want your kid to learn cursive then teach them but don't force an entire class of kids to do the same.

 

Actually, what you suggested was that cursive was something that students will never use once out of school, and I can't agree. I write cursive every day, and receive handwritten notes every day. If writing by hand is still a valuable skill worth teaching, I can't understand the argument that we should allow students to graduate with only the most basic printing skills.

 

[Lord Henry]

  Randal6393 said:

As we get away from the basics of reading, WRITING, and arithmetic our SAT scores get lower and lower. And our children understand less because they have no basics to build an understanding of the universe on. Any wonder that evolution is under attack from ignorant, bigoted, and superstitious idiots of all persuasions?

 

Are you asking a question or making a statement here? Because from the sounds of it you think those of us that believe in a higher power are somewhere lower on the food chain. Your statement formed as a question to allow you a bit of breathing room to negotiate any offense given to those of us that believe in God is in poor taste. If you want to be a knuckle dragger that is your business don't make it mine. Peace said let's move on.

 

As far as the actual thread topic goes...

 

Imagine all that will be lost to the next generation. Imagine the 7th graders going to D.C. on a field trip and not being able to read the USA's Founding Documents. Or a mother's journal, or a grandmother's.

 

My grandfather kept records that were used for the Farmer's Almanac and his leather bound journals about the air temp, rainfall, how much the grass had grown, when he planted and what results he saw on the family farm from year to year is an amazing archive all written in my grandfather's longhand and in my young father's between the ages of 10 and 16.

 

Writting is a skillset that cannot be forgotten in the schoolastic career.

 

Just My 2 Cents

 

[MDI]

Gee, Kurt, and on the Penmanship forum, no less. Did you expect people to say "oh, yeah, yeah, I guess cursive is useless, let's just have the kids print their homework."

 

One point that's worth mentioning is that without being taught how to write in cursive the kids may grow up unable to read the cursive hand, which is a disadvantage if the use of cursive persists. Eventually, I'm sure, the teaching of strict cursive writing in elementary school will probably cease.

[irish_monk]

I think it is a problem when people equate education with "getting a job". These are two different things. A sprinkling of art? Seriously? Ones life should not be sprinkled with things like the Sistine Chapel, Beethoven's 9th, or Dante's Inferno. If one wants a job....go get vocational training. Education is about understanding the world and your place in it. It is about being creative and seeking challenges. As a teacher I have seen the results of the "train them to get a job mentality". People become storehouses of fact but do not understand how they relate. They see only a system but not possibilities. Most of my students cannot read or write cursive very well. I write in it exclusively. It requires a different type of thinking that is underdeveloped in education. Thus we are left with people who can only regurgitate that which is handed to them rather than develop a society of creative free thinkers.

 

 

 

  Paddler said:

I think one needs to teach children (and others) more than what is necessary to make a living. Teach the survival skills and the ways to put food on the table! Yes! Emphatically! But there has to be a little time and a little effort for more. Teach some handwriting; a bit of music; a sprinkling of art. You are not a competent denizen of the planet if you cannot catch a fish and cook it; ride a horse, milk a cow, dip a candle, call an owl, or make a cat smile. Meat and potatoes are necessary. A few herbs and spices make the basic fare worth eating.

 

with kindest regards,

Paddler

 

[KateGladstone]

Re:

 

"You are not a competent denizen of the planet if you cannot catch a fish and cook it; ride a horse, milk a cow, dip a candle, call an owl, or make a cat smile."

 

In which elementary (or other) school ought I to have learned these subjects, and where would I go now to learn the ones I don't know? .. with no horses, cows, or owls accessible hereabouts for practice?

[MDI]

  KateGladstone said:

with no horses, cows, or owls accessible

 

What? No cows to ride, horses to milk or owls to cook near Albany?!

 

Oh wait, I must've gotten that wrong.

[Lord Henry]

  KateGladstone said:

Re:

 

"You are not a competent denizen of the planet if you cannot catch a fish and cook it; ride a horse, milk a cow, dip a candle, call an owl, or make a cat smile."

 

In which elementary (or other) school ought I to have learned these subjects, and where would I go now to learn the ones I don't know? .. with no horses, cows, or owls accessible hereabouts for practice?

 

If you ever feel like learning any of these things (-the smiling cat bit) come on out to the country and make some friends. We are easy folks to get along with as long as you are polite and don't mind a little work and dirt.

[KateGladstone]

Thanks for the invitation, Lord Henry -- where do you live, and would you accept a swap (I help with the farm work and possibly teach some handwriting, if you teach me to call owls and make cats smile and all the rest of it)?

[JakobS]

It is interesting that many don't want to limit the teaching of handwriting to printing, but see advanced handwriting as cursive only. For me the term advanced handwriting is rather odd, should this really mean the use of cursive, or simply the use of a legible hand in writing documents? Does teaching and and having students write cursive truly equate to more legible handwriting? Though some people do hold onto cursive handwriting throughout their lives, most students do not, and once they are not mandated to write cursive in school, around middle school for me, many will write in their own individual hand, be it print, cursive, chicken scratch, you name it. I think a diversity of hands should be taught with an overall goal of legible handwriting in schools, and should not be limited to cursive. Just as students may not be able to read and write in cursive if never taught, so too will they not be able to print and write legibly if they are only limited to cursive and wish to seek individuality in their handwriting by rebelling against the strict demands of their teachers, as many high school students do. I remember it took me a little while to develop legible print after I stopped writing in cursive, and I feel that this maybe happening with many students who are found to have bad handwriting as high schoolers and college students. The fundamentals of diverse hands, or the basics of print were forgotten soon after being learned in the rush to cursive. It may be very possible, that when these students find freedom from the mandate of cursive they fail to develop a legible individual hand, and the basics of handwriting may indeed need to be relearned.

That is why I think we must focus on legibility of individual hands over the mandate of cursive, as that is what is important, not only in developing something that can be widely read and understood, but in having a person develop a better sense of themselves and their individuality.

Edited April 5, 2009 by JakobS

[Lord Henry]

  KateGladstone said:

Thanks for the invitation, Lord Henry -- where do you live, and would you accept a swap (I help with the farm work and possibly teach some handwriting, if you teach me to call owls and make cats smile and all the rest of it)?

 

Eastern Kentucky is where I call home when I am not bouncing around the Middle East earning a living. My 300 acres is surrounded by 500 square miles of National Forest and no neighbors in sight.

 

[sasdrtx]

Doesn't everyone need to learn at least enough cursive writing to sign his or her name?

[Judybug]

  WendyNC said:

  Titivillus said:

Maybe shorthand should be taught in school rather than cursive, it gives the benefits of a much faster writing

 

This makes an incredible amount of sense to me. Since the subject of the usefulness of cursive came up a few weeks ago, I've been thinking about it far more than is warranted for someone without children or grandchildren. I've also been paying attention to the instances when I use cursive as a form of communication, either to others or to create reference information for myself. Some form of shorthand would do the job much better.

 

But, and this is a big but: is there a form of shorthand which is international? A quick Google search does not turn one up.

 

I took advanced levels of Gregg shorthand in college - many moons ago - and was very proficient at it. So were a lot of my classmates. Shorthand is certainly useful, but even those who were very good at it would tell you that you had better not let your shorthand get "cold" - in other words, don't wait too long to transcribe it. There are so many fine distinctions in shorthand that - if you don't transcribe soon after taking notes - you'll have difficulty figuring out your own shorthand.

 

I'm amazed that cursive is so disliked by so many people. I find it so much easier to write cursive and flow from one letter to another than to write italic or print and have to lift my pen at almost every letter. But to each his own. I certainly hope cursive doesn't "just give up and die." I'm expecting any day that someone will suggest that children don't need to waste time learning to tie their shoes since shoes with velcro are readily available.

 

Judybug

 

 

 

[Paddler]

  KateGladstone said:

Re:

 

"You are not a competent denizen of the planet if you cannot catch a fish and cook it; ride a horse, milk a cow, dip a candle, call an owl, or make a cat smile."

 

In which elementary (or other) school ought I to have learned these subjects, and where would I go now to learn the ones I don't know? .. with no horses, cows, or owls accessible hereabouts for practice?

 

Try a vacation at a dude ranch. They can teach you about horses and cows. Owls are a cinch, at least hereabouts. State parks frequently give night hikes where they teach owl calling. Sometimes you can call in a barred owl just by tooting your car horn in the proper cadence (Who cooks for you? Who cooks for you-all?)

 

Robert Heinlein had a list of things a person should know before he/she can attain full citizenship. I think it is a short list.

 

Paddler

 

[antoniosz]

Kurt, I am 100% with you. First of all I find it offensive when someone says that printing is "lesser" than cursive. The speed argument is mute since italic is the faster writing method. Don't get me wrong, I practice and I adore calligraphy. But I think in a modern school, such calligraphy (italic, copperplate, or classic cursive) has a place in the arts curriculum. Not in the language part of the curriculum. Teaching a single legible handwriting method suffices there - and printing is fine.

[Titivillus]

  RayMan said:

Actually, what you suggested was that cursive was something that students will never use once out of school, and I can't agree. I write cursive every day, and receive handwritten notes every day. If writing by hand is still a valuable skill worth teaching, I can't understand the argument that we should allow students to graduate with only the most basic printing skills.

 

I see an impass in this discussion as your experience is to use cursive often while mine is not.

 

I can't convince you nor can you convince me.

 

 

K

[Titivillus]

  Lord Henry said:

Imagine all that will be lost to the next generation. Imagine the 7th graders going to D.C. on a field trip and not being able to read the USA's Founding Documents. Or a mother's journal, or a grandmother's.

 

 

Actually it already is lost. I'm reading a book on handwriting in America and there are several hands that were used that people taught cursive can't easily read today. So there is already a history of phasing out styles of writing in the world right now.

 

K

[Titivillus]

  irish_monk said:

Most of my students cannot read or write cursive very well. I write in it exclusively. It requires a different type of thinking that is underdeveloped in education. Thus we are left with people who can only regurgitate that which is handed to them rather than develop a society of creative free thinkers.

 

I find this comment interesting. How exactly is learning the gestures to print and the gestures to write cursive different enough that without the latter there are no free thinkers?

 

When did cursive become this amazing mind expanding technique? How is the printing on regurgitating information while cursive is beyond art. :roflmho:

 

K