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Noodler's amazes me. The color options, the shading, the water resistance (some-but-not-all inks). I have nothing but respect for Mr. Tardif. This thread is one of wonderment, amazement, and homage. One thing that irritates me, however, is that he does not offer a true bulletproof CYMK set (with the obvious exception of Black.) This means that the inks I want to make for myself won't be bulletproof. And bulletproofness is a sticking point for me, or at least water resistance. (I don't write anything worth forging anyway, so for the time being let's throw out bleach/acetone/ammonia/..... resistance.) So for the chemists in the room: how can one make a water-resistant, dye-based ink? The dye retailers I've called don't think it can be done. (They mostly retail to cloth dyers, so their lack of expertise in inks isn't surprising, but cellulose reactivity is cellulose reactivity; all cellulose-reactive dyes I've come across require activation with a base like soda ash or NaOH, and then are unstable in a bottle. ) The closest I've come to an explanation of Tardif's dyes on this forum is this: Unfortunately I saved the quote but not the link in my notes. I believe Chemyst stepped in and countered that yes, they are reactive dyes. We know that water resistant CYMK inks are possible, because De Atramantis makes them too. (Unfortunately they're very expensive here in the US.) So. Who wants to take a stab? What makes Bulletproof Black so bulletproof? How can one make a water resistant ink from a dye base? I'll offer some clues, or at least properties of Noodler's that I've noticed: --He offers (at least partially) water resistant blacks, and purples, and browns. (Though usually the water resistant component is black...) --He DOESN'T offer truly water resistant yellows or oranges. (Operation Overlord*) --He USED TO offer essentially CYMK inks from I think Swishers (Goldfinch for yellow, which he was "permanently sold out of" at one point, Hellbender Red, Brittania's Blue Waves -- see the Noodler's CYMK thread). He no longer does so. Is this lack of interest, or a change in availability, or....? --Noodler's likes to form bubbles in my bottles, indicating he uses A LOT of surfactant. This is also evidenced by the degree to which it nib creeps. So far I've: --Done patent searches related to inks (I still haven't found a single patent related to fountain pen inks; the ONE I was able to find seemed to talk about a "ball point fountain pen ink" which was odd.) There are lots of patents related to inkjets and ball points, but none specifically related to FPs. Most of the inkjet patents are pigment-related, but not all. --Done MSDS searches for major ink makers. I've learned some about what other stuff goes in ink, but the only actual dye I've found was a direct dye used in Pilot's rollerball inks. --Called Pro Chemical and Dye, DharmaTrading, and Keystone; the first 2 have no idea what I'm talking about (and think it's impossible); the last hasn't called me back yet. --Done general dye research, especially at . A list of threads worth reading if this topic encuriouses you too: Fabric Dye as a Basis for Ink: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/269610-fabric-dye-as-a-basis-for-ink/ Make Your Own Ink https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/2183-make-your-own-ink/ The Open Source Ink Project: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/227894-open-source-ink-project/ Physics Articles Related to FPs: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/288121-fountain-pen-ink-behaviour-fountain-pen-physics-journal-articlesreferences/ Mixing Glycerine In Ink: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/257406-mixing-glycerine-in-ink/ Surfactants in Ink for Improved Flow: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/229403-surfactants-in-ink-for-improved-flow/ So.... thoughts?

(tldr: scroll down to see image of the soggy test results) For reasons both pragmatic and neurotic, I almost exclusively use inks with some reliable degree of water resistance. Recently I noticed that a sizable range of Faber-Castell inks, while not mentioned in any of the online water resistant ink guides/forum threads I’d consulted when first getting into the FP hobby, are categorized as “waterproof” on the Vanness website and described as “document proof” in the Amazon product descriptions. So I got my hands on some cartridges of Moss Green, which struck me as the most attractive of these purportedly permanent FC inks, and popped one into my Kaweco Sport. Right off the bat, I found it to be a pleasure to write with and uncommonly lovely on the page: well-saturated with some fairly dynamic shading. For the test, I put some of it down on a page in a (surprisingly fountain pen friendly) Italian-made B&N notebook that I’ve been using for misc scribbling/inky ephemera (e.g. the phone number jotted down in the upper right hand corner which I had to blur out before posting 😅 ). For comparison, I then filled in the rest of the page with writing samples of the inks currently inhabiting my other daily use pens, all of which are also marketed as being "waterproof". After giving the writing samples roughly a minute to dry, I tore out the page, held it under the faucet of my kitchen sink, and turned on the water (full blast). For the duration of the test I steadily moved the paper back-and-forth to ensure each of the ink samples spent roughly equivalent time directly under the stream. Results: After a good 30 seconds under cold running water, the FC Moss Green writing sample remained more-or-less legible—enough so to indicate that any important writing would be recoverable in the event of an unexpected downpour or spilt drink. (Although, given how alcohol is (generally? always?) a more aggressive solvent than water, it would probably behoove me to test how this ink holds up under a horizontal glass of whiskey soda…) That said, post-dousing, the Moss Green (quite literally) paled in comparison to every one of the other inks I tested alongside it. FCMG probably meets the average fountain pen user's minimum standard for being considered “water resistant”. But it is not anywhere near “waterproof” and I have to wonder whether it would still pass for “water resistant” if the same test were performed with less absorbent paper. Verdict: Given the strong appeal of this ink’s wonderfully subtle coloration and suitability for general writing, the mere survival of the text after a punishing water test like this is good enough for me. I’m happy to add it to my short list of standard dye-based inks which, for reasons of chemistry beyond my ken, are robust enough to trust with preserving day-to-day handwritten work as I make my way around a turbulent city in an often unexpectedly wet world. (As of now, there are two other inks with a firm place on this list: Pilot Iroshizuku Yama-Guri and Sailor Doyou. I really wanted to include Sailor Miruai as well—I love the color and JetPens rates it as somewhat water resistant—but alas, it hasn’t performed well for me when put to the test).

A few days ago I managed to find my long lost twenty-year-old bottle of Parker ebony writing ink (which I think is marketed as the Penman line somewhere, just not in Australia?) of which I had fond distant memories. I decided to test whether I should use it now for journalling, or stick with what I presently trust most for archival writing; the second-most important quality – behind simple fading with time – to me for that purpose, is water resistance. The paper I used is a Daiso Word Card (5mm grid, ~108gsm, made in Cambodia), although that is not what I use for journalling; I have a stack of currently about 50 of them, one for each ink I have, to make it easier to visually compare colours and such. I note that after I soaked the bottom quarter of the card for five minutes in the test below, the back of the card still showed no ghosting or bleed-through from any of the inks whatsoever. Hmmm. I guess I won't be using the Parker ink for writing in journals after all that.

It's time for another look at how different inks fare when soaked for an extended period of time in water. This test was a 12 hour soak in room temperature tap water. Ink was applied to Rhodia 80 gsm paper and allowed to dry for over 24 hours. Once dry, the sheets were placed into a pan of water. A photo was taken just as they were inserted into the water to capture the ink behavior on first contact with water. Many of the inks had components that quickly flowed off the page. The full 12 hour soak revealed the true permanence of the inks, or lack thereof. Some of the more colorful and fun to use inks have very low water resistance. However, there are a surprisingly large number of inks that hold up very well to extended exposure to water. These would have been useful on the Titanic I'm sure. A couple of the inks completely fled the paper and left no trace. I'll leave it to the observer to decide which inks are the most permanent. The original version is on the left. 12 hour soaked version on the right. The two insertion photos are at the bottom. Hope you find it helpful in your search for permanent inks for your fountain pens. This is a complete list of the tested inks Noodler's 54th Massachusetts Platinum Pigment Blue De Atramentis Document (mix of several colors) Noodler's Kung Te cheng Pilot Blue Black Noodler's Zhivago Noodler's Bad Blue Heron Franklin Christoph Blue 72 Noodler's Luck of the Draw Noodler's Black Noodler's Legal Blue Noodler's Bad Green Gator Noodler's Empire Red Noodler's El Lawrence Noodler's Lexington Gray Sailor Souboku Noodler's Black Swan in Australian Roses Noodler's North African Violet Noodler's Nikita Noodler's Red Black Noodler's Blue Black Monteverde Canyon Rust Faber-Castell Moss Green Noodler's Air Corps Blue Black Noodler's Zhivago Noodler's Navy Noodler's Liberty's Elysium Noodler's Bad Belted Kingfisher Noodler's Walnut Pelikan 4001 Violet Levenger Forest Green Robert Oster Blue Water Ice Noodler's Baystate Blue Noodler's Upper Ganges Blue

Water resistance tests on Reflex Blue copy paper (ie not white). 1 minute under running tap water. Selection of currently inked pens and personally preferred ink blends written with dip nib. Mostly Noodlers CMYK blends, a few Iroshizuku, one Private Reserve (Ebony Purple), and couple of J Herbins. Interesting outcome for one commercial ink and for a couple of blends. Noodler's Yellow: check out the paper bleaching after 1 minute rinse (third link below). Unexpected. Wouldn't have shown up if I had used white paper. While damp, I held the paper to the light to check it out, and the bleached areas appeared semi-translucent. The other Noodler's colours didn't have this effect and showed the regular type of behaviour I expected to see (Shah's Rose, Navajo Turquoise, and Bulletproof Black). My Noodler's 'random blend' (first link below) with black, navajo turquoise, shah's rose, xanthan, and titanium white luster was also a surprise. This was the dregs of a few xanthan x luster experiments, and had a much higher proportion of Bulletproof Black in it than any of my other CMYK blends shown in these water tests. There was a *lot* of luster in this ink as can be seen on the unrinsed side - the base ink is actually a very dark purple when wet, and it dries up to that very pale purple due to luster coverage. After rinsing, the lustre still adhered quite solidly in some areas; even in the faded areas an equivalent amount of 'faded' luster still adhered. Will post a close up shot later in the xanthan thread. I'm curious about this behaviour. Summer Lustre: Another ink blend with xanthan x titanium white luster, however did not behave in the same way as the 'random blend' with bulletproof - so there appears to be an interaction of some sort that occurred between bulletproof, xanthan, and luster, or maybe just bulletproof and luster in the 'random' blend. (FYI The plain ink version of Summer Lustre is shown just above and is called 'Sunset'.) If a blend interests you let me know and I'll post up the specifics. However as these tests are all on blue paper, they'll look different on white paper. Someday I'll get around to posting examples and ratios on white (ink cards are in the making). These are big image files. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/uploads/imgs/fpn_1429165382__image.jpg https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/uploads/imgs/fpn_1429165539__image.jpg https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/uploads/imgs/fpn_1429165639__image.jpg

I'd like to test some of my inks for water resistance. However, I've noticed that people test differently, and when I test, I get different results on different papers. Can we discuss an appropriately rigorous determination of resistance? I'd like to standardize my approach. For example: What paper should be used? Are there any papers known to shed inks better than others? How much water? For how long? Dropped, swabbed, scrubbed, soaked, run over the paper, or licked? Do you blot off the water? Wipe it? Let it evaporate? How should ink be laid down? Grids? Words? Solid lines? Is there any benefit to adding things to the testing water (like soap), or to testing other substances (ethanol/bleach)? Length of time? Temperature? Size of swatch?