What does Noodler's mean by Cellulose paper,

[biffybeans]

Cellulose paper should mean made from plant material, right? Wouldn't that mean most everything except maybe Yupo paper?

 

And how long should it take to dry - I mean dry so you can watercolor over it?

 

I'm testing a wood-free paper and 15 minutes later, I still can't brush over the Noodler's BB without leaving a gray trail...

 

Anyone???

 

 

 

[zquilts]

Hummmm - very interesting !

[PAKMAN]

From Wikipedia, Cellulose is an organic compound with the formula (C₆H₁₀O₅)_n, a polysaccharide consisting of a linear chain of several hundred to over ten thousand linked glucose units.

 

Cellulose is the structural component of the primary cell wall of green plants. Cellulose is the most common organic compound on Earth. About 33 percent of all plant matter is cellulose (the cellulose content of cotton is 90 percent and that of wood is 50 percent).

 

Could wood free equal Cellulose free? Don't know.

 

 

[Zoe]

About 95% of the paper in the States is made from "wood" cellulose" but rag, recycles and other papers exist beyond Yupo.

 

What paper are you using?

 

 

[Deirdre]

Rag paper is still cellulose based. Rice paper would be also.

 

Silk is the only relatively common ingredient that isn't.

 

Different papers have different finishes, though, and perhaps the paper that biffybeans is using is finished in such a way that BB doesn't dry?

 

I used to have the eel black, which dried very very slowly on Rhodia.

[Breck]

True vellum and Mylar would also be cellulose-free "papers".

[dcwaites]

I saw a discussion recently (on FPN? I can't remember) on wood-free paper vs pulp?-free paper. I vaguely recall that wood-free paper mean that it didn't have any long or large wood fibres, resulting in a smoother, denser paper.

 

Consequently, I would think that any highly saturated ink wouldn't sink into the paper very much. The very bottom of the layer would adhere to the paper, and if bulletproof, would bond with it chemically. The rest of the ink would sit up high and proud, just like it would on plastic, and would take as long to dry. As well, it wouldn't bond with the paper, and so could be smeared off.

 

I noticed this effect when trying my Noodler's Coral Sea ink, a bulletproof ink, on Stora Enso 4CC paper. The ink just didn't sink in very much, so a lot of the ink just sat on top of other ink, and dried slowly.

 

 

[Zoe]

Good cellulose call, Deirdre.

 

And you are also correct that it may be the finish rather than the content.

 

Rag paper is still cellulose based. Rice paper would be also.

 

Silk is the only relatively common ingredient that isn't.

 

Different papers have different finishes, though, and perhaps the paper that biffybeans is using is finished in such a way that BB doesn't dry?

 

I used to have the eel black, which dried very very slowly on Rhodia.

 

[biffybeans]

Paper is under review - can't reveal yet....

 

Label says, wood/acid/chlorine free if it matters

 

I tore off a corner - very fibrous. Feels that way when you write on it as well. Not a friend of the EF nib I'm afraid. Strange stuff.

[thibaulthalpern]

And how long should it take to dry - I mean dry so you can watercolor over it?

 

Bulletproof doesn't mean smear proof. I've had experience with Noodler's bulletproof black and it definitely can be smeared even hours after it dries of days. What it means is that not everything would wash off so you can still see your writing. Bulletproof isn't smear proof, in my experience. So, can you watercolour over it without smearing? I doubt it.

[biffybeans]

From the Pendemonium site: "An ink designated by Noodler's as "bulletproof" means it stands up against bleach, UV Light, industrial chemicals, etc., making it impossible to forge a check! The cellulose reactive dyes are completely water soluble in your pens and in the bottle, but once the ink dries on the paper, it is totally waterproof and permanent!"

 

IMHO, waterproof an permanent means that I should be able to paint over it without it smearing....

 

 

 

And how long should it take to dry - I mean dry so you can watercolor over it?

 

Bulletproof doesn't mean smear proof. I've had experience with Noodler's bulletproof black and it definitely can be smeared even hours after it dries of days. What it means is that not everything would wash off so you can still see your writing. Bulletproof isn't smear proof, in my experience. So, can you watercolour over it without smearing? I doubt it.

 

[Deirdre]

True vellum and Mylar would also be cellulose-free "papers".

Tyvek also. I use a sharpie on Tyvek.

[Breck]

True vellum and Mylar would also be cellulose-free "papers".

Tyvek also. I use a sharpie on Tyvek.

 

I can't tell if you're making fun of me or not, but yeah, sure - Tyvek would fall into that category.

 

Just to be clear, Mylar is used in some design drawing applications.

[thibaulthalpern]

From the Pendemonium site: "An ink designated by Noodler's as "bulletproof" means it stands up against bleach, UV Light, industrial chemicals, etc., making it impossible to forge a check! The cellulose reactive dyes are completely water soluble in your pens and in the bottle, but once the ink dries on the paper, it is totally waterproof and permanent!"

 

IMHO, waterproof an permanent means that I should be able to paint over it without it smearing....

 

Ah...okay. In that case, Noodler's bulletproof isn't waterproof then, according to your definition.

 

Bulletproof ink still smears but it doesn't disappear like other fountain pen ink can. It is permanent in that sense.

[Deirdre]

True vellum and Mylar would also be cellulose-free "papers".

Tyvek also. I use a sharpie on Tyvek.

 

I can't tell if you're making fun of me or not, but yeah, sure - Tyvek would fall into that category.

 

Just to be clear, Mylar is used in some design drawing applications.

I wasn't making fun of you, I was just rambling.

 

I'm the person who mutters at the back of the room....

[biffybeans]

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but waterproof means waterproof and permanent means permanent. As in does not budge.

 

If Noodler's claim is to be waterproof and permanent once dry on cellulose paper, then it sure should be, or it's false advertising.

 

Inks smudged off of papers can be caused by the top layer of the ink drying first - like on a coated paper - pens that lay down too much ink - that can contribute to smudging... humidity...all could play a part.

 

But my house is warm and dry, the ink flowing from an EF Lamy Studio, and the paper is not coated.

 

It is not at all smearing when I run a finger across it, but when I run a Niji waterbrush over it over an hour after I drew circles on the paper, it's running/bleeding whatever you want to call it, but it's not being permanent in the Sharpie marker sense of the word, which is why I was looking to get a better understanding of cellulose paper.

 

 

From the Pendemonium site: "An ink designated by Noodler's as "bulletproof" means it stands up against bleach, UV Light, industrial chemicals, etc., making it impossible to forge a check! The cellulose reactive dyes are completely water soluble in your pens and in the bottle, but once the ink dries on the paper, it is totally waterproof and permanent!"

 

IMHO, waterproof an permanent means that I should be able to paint over it without it smearing....

 

Ah...okay. In that case, Noodler's bulletproof isn't waterproof then, according to your definition.

 

Bulletproof ink still smears but it doesn't disappear like other fountain pen ink can. It is permanent in that sense.

 

[nkk]

From the Pendemonium site: "An ink designated by Noodler's as "bulletproof" means it stands up against bleach, UV Light, industrial chemicals, etc., making it impossible to forge a check! The cellulose reactive dyes are completely water soluble in your pens and in the bottle, but once the ink dries on the paper, it is totally waterproof and permanent!"

 

IMHO, waterproof an permanent means that I should be able to paint over it without it smearing....

 

Ah...okay. In that case, Noodler's bulletproof isn't waterproof then, according to your definition.

 

Bulletproof ink still smears but it doesn't disappear like other fountain pen ink can. It is permanent in that sense.

 

Really? My BP black, once fully dry (read: I used cheap paper and had feathering to achieve this), did not go anywhere when dipped in hot water. Once fully dry, it should not smear at all.

 

-Nkk

[m00t]

Noodlers bulletproof inks are waterproof and permanent in the sense that once dry, they chemically bond to the cellulose in paper, and the bond cannot be severed by water, or any other chemicals which would leave the paper intact. The problem you're having is that not every molecule of the ink is finding a molecule of cellulose to attach itself to, and, being unable to bond to anything, remains water soluble, sitting on top of the other bits of ink, which are quite permanently bonded to the paper (Sharpies are permanent because the dyes are nonpolar, dissolved in a nonpolar solvent which evaporates... many nonpolar solvents can remove sharpie, however).

 

The absorption rate of the ink is well related to how much of the ink remains unable to physically bond to the paper - on papers that are cheaper and exhibit more feathering, the ink has more effective surface area to bond to, resulting in less smear once dry. Likewise, pens that lay down a dry enough line, allowing just enough ink onto the paper without any excess, will leave a smear-free line. Noodler's original BP black is designed to resist feathering, which left me slightly disappointed when I first tried it out in a wet writing pen, as I got the same problem of smearing when dry. I must admit BSB has spoiled me when it comes to smear-proof writing once dry (coupled with the instantaneous dry time, it is very nice).

 

You might try a few things (or a combination thereof) in order to solve your dilemma... and the specific recipe may be unique to that pen/paper combo if the paper is high quality, so try some small batches:

 

-dilution of the ink with water will result in a lower concentration of dye particles per unit volume. Assuming the pen lays down the same volume of ink, there will be less dye particles on the same line, possibly limiting the excess unbonded particles. Noodler's is a very saturated ink. (make sure to shake it before use!)

 

-adding a surfactant like a teeny tiny amount of dish soap will encourage absorption into the paper, allowing the ink to come into contact with more cellulose, allowing more particles to bond. This will, as a caveat, increase feathering, bleeding, and possibly flow to the nib.

 

-A drier writing pen that doesn't leave excess ink on top of that which bonds to the paper

 

-I also hear that Noodler's Borealis Black exhibits some qualities of BSB in that it is not pH neutral, has a very fast dry time and high absorption into many papers. It's not bulletproof, but it is waterproof... Perhaps someone here can submit whether it smears less easily than the original BP black?

[biffybeans]

Just to clarify.... I am not having a problem with the ink smearing. I can run my finger over it and it does not move. It smears/moves/bleeds when I add water. And these are simple straight lines - a few circles.....

 

So what you are basically saying, is that this ink would not be best used for pen & ink washes without some kind of tinkering - which I have no interest in doing. What's washing off when I apply the waterbrush are ink molecules that may have been sitting on top of one another and dried there.

 

 

[Deirdre]

So what you are basically saying, is that this ink would not be best used for pen & ink washes without some kind of tinkering - which I have no interest in doing. What's washing off when I apply the waterbrush are ink molecules that may have been sitting on top of one another and dried there.

That's my understanding, yes.

 

If you look at the scans I did of bulletproof inks (and some non-BP) in an overnight soak test, you can see that some were significantly lighter after the overnight soak:

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3054/2576646801_401fd1fcb0.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2576647341_8824616c6e.jpg

 

Brittania's Blue Waves and Dostoevsky were two of them that got a lot lighter. There's definitely ink bonded to that paper, it's just not as much as one might hope.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Deirdre