Copperplate Hand

[TMLee]

Hi all ...

using normal pens with flex nibs, I tried the copperplate hand with the paper canted ... wow very difficult to keep the slants consistent...

 

the Copperplate hand is the one hand that I cannot do ... very frustrating ... for years now ..

 

so I have just ordered an oblique holder and a few oblique nibs in the hope of getting it right. I also ordered the IronGall ink which was recommended. Never seen nor used it before.

 

any advice whilst I await delivery?

 

any guidebooks to recommend?

 

anyone here uses oblique holders and/or Mitchell's oblique nibs? what are yr experiences?

 

tks in advance...

[Ann Finley]

Good to see you posting again! You do such nice calligraphy in various hands that it's hard to envision that there would be one that you are having a hard time with.

 

I once had the Zanerian Manual, which you might like (it certainly contains a lot), but I've never done Copperplate, so I can't say how the instructions compare with others. Eleanor Winters has a book called "Mastering Copperplate." I like her work in general--but haven't seen the book, but it may be worth looking into.

 

Here's a link to Paper and Ink Arts. You should be able to find either of the books mentioned & others, plus nibs and other supplies. Just type "copperplate" in the search box.

 

Maybe you'll get some better recommendations from someone with experience doing Copperplate.

 

Good luck!

Ann

[p-zero]

I think you can get free lessons at zanerian.com

[Elaine]

I like "Calligraphy in the Copperplate Style" by Herb Kaufman and Geri Homelsky. It's very inexpensive and very easy to follow.

[TMLee]

Good to see you posting again! You do such nice calligraphy in various hands that it's hard to envision that there would be one that you are having a hard time with.

 

I once had the Zanerian Manual, which you might like (it certainly contains a lot), but I've never done Copperplate, so I can't say how the instructions compare with others. Eleanor Winters has a book called "Mastering Copperplate." I like her work in general--but haven't seen the book, but it may be worth looking into.

 

Here's a link to Paper and Ink Arts. You should be able to find either of the books mentioned & others, plus nibs and other supplies. Just type "copperplate" in the search box.

 

Maybe you'll get some better recommendations from someone with experience doing Copperplate.

 

Good luck!

Ann

thanks Ann for your encouragement....you are too kind with your words...

 

will look up the local bookstore.... I am surprised you said you haven't done copperplate. anyone would have easily assumed you have mastered it after seeing your handwriting samples....

 

i still don't understand how you guys manage to write the copperplate or spencerian hands using normal tools . Even by canting the paper, the wrist movement is limited and just too hard to main consistency in the slants. Did people of those times write this way? Wonder how they did it.

[TMLee]

I think you can get free lessons at zanerian.com

thanks ... I visited the Zanerian website ... the sample exercises there look tough already ...

[TMLee]

The Kaufman and Homelsky book Elaine recommends is good. If you are in a city with a calligrapher who teaches classes in copperplate, take advantge of the resource. You can't get everything you need from a book.

 

Most calligraphic styles rely on an edged nib and a little manipulation. You normally don't vary the pressure on the nib at all if you can help it. Copperplate is all about pressure changes on the nib. This is what makes it challenging for some calligraphers to learn, and why so many people give up in frustration. The other thing to remember is that with copperplate you are drawing the letters. The end product looks fluid, but the actual forming of the letters isn't like writing a cursive hand at all.

thanks Bill for the pointers ... I'm sorry to hear you have trouble enjoying writing due to health reasons...

 

yes the best way to learn is to see someone actually doing it... I was looking at a webstore's videoclip selling Automatic Lettering Pens ... the demonstration was most insightful - at least to me... immediately I could see things like... the penhold , the wrist position, the wrist movement, etc

 

i don't think there are any calligraphy classes here where I live... so I have to rely on internet and you guys.. I must say samples , pics etc from others are most useful. The learning accelerates.

 

your explanation on 'drawing' rather than 'writing' is helpful... Is this why you recommend that an oblique holder is a must-have instrument?

 

Also, the penhold, I should think , is more crucial in the Copperplate hand, since theres lots of swashes to be drawn. Can you direct me to a website that teaches the penhold?

 

The Zanerian website showed some useful gadgets to help improve writing. Have you used the one that looks like a little stubby cylinder to be gripped between the little finger and the palm? Is this the hold that is the correct one? What are your experiences?

 

I would imagine the next important matter would be the paper to be written on , since pressure is the key technique. What kinds of paper should I be using or avoiding?

[BillTheEditor]

I regret having deleted my post. After looking at your posted calligraphy, it occurred to me that you (and others who are familiar with your talent) might well see my comments as presumptuous and inappropriate. I was embarrassed and deleted the post. I apologize for any offense.

 

I recommend the oblique holder (or the special nibs) because that's the only way I know to execute copperplate. As far as I know, copperplate was always executed either on paper with a pen in an oblique holder, or on metal with an engravers tool (burin? should know but I'm tired and my brain isn't working tonight). I've never known anyone who did copperplate with a regular dip pen in a straight holder. In my opinion, a fountain pen nib would never be capable of the degree of flexibility and "spring" that it takes to execute copperplate.

 

Can't help with the penhold, since there was nothing special about mine. Never used the Zanerian gadget (in fact I didn't even know such a thing existed). Normally my little finger is against my palm when writing, but it's a light touch, not a "grip" that would hold an object. Most critical (in my opinion) is something you already know: learning to breathe the pen movements and learning to relax every part of your body while writing. Holding your breath or tensing up your hand will totally destroy your ability to make the regular, perfectly identical strokes you need in copperplate. In italic and in freehand lettering, you can get a visual rhythm going that improves the appearance of the finished product. With copperplate, you are trying for regularity. It's like blackletter, in a way.

 

You want to remember that copperplate originated as the penman's attempt to emulate the engraver. It's a different mindset than italic. Or it was for me.

 

In spite of what I said about getting training, I was self-taught, using a few books, careful study of exemplars, advice from professionals when I could get it, and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours (you get the idea) of practice. If I'd had any sense, I'd have found a teacher in some city somewhere, caught a plane and gone to study with him or her for a couple of weeks. It would have been worth the price.

 

Nothing special about the paper, either, as long as you aren't practicing on cheap laser printer paper. Good quality paper that won't tear or get caught in the nib as it flexes. I used to buy sketch books (the spiral-bound kind) in art stores when they were having sales or closeouts, as many at a time as I could afford, to use for practice work and for layouts. For production work, I preferred Bristol board (plate finish), 100% cotton paper, smooth high quality stuff in any case. Wove finishes are better than laid. Paper selection was part of negotiating with the client.

 

Hope this helps. When you get those pens and start working with them, it will make more sense. Copperplate is a very kinesthetic art.

Edited June 6, 2006 by BillTheEditor

[TMLee]

Dear Bill...

No offense taken. None at all. Don't worry. That you care enough to withdraw your post on hindsight is indicative of your sensitive nature, which in turn means that you didn't have any ill-intent. I find your posts encouraging and helpful. Pls do continue to post.

 

I guess I just have to try it out and this time I am hopeful bcos I think the oblique holder will be a great help.

 

(im)patiently awaiting delivery of them tools....

 

warmest rgds

[TMLee]

The instruments I ordered have arrived. The oblique holder and some dip nibs. A small bottle of Irongall ink.(wonder whats it made of , it gets dark upon drying) Also bought calligraphy paperpad by Daler-Rowner.....

 

Now to find time to make my first attempt.

 

One last question : do you guys cant the paper ?

[BillTheEditor]

One last question : do you guys cant the paper ?

Yes, I did. Although no more so than when writing normally.

[TMLee]

Hi all ....

 

Pushed myself to try it out....

 

I don't have a scanner, so this is a digipic.

 

My first attempt. I find the writing difficult and not flowing. The toothiness of the nibs makes it very hard to make smooth straight strokes. The paper , no matter how smooth, resists the glide of the nib.

 

The irongall ink does not disappoint, growing to a dark black after drying.

 

I have been looking at some images of original archaic handwritings and I notice they are able to keep a very very straight baseline. How does one accomplish that?

 

The letters are also very narrow and compressed. Is that proper or is that a bad example?

 

I also find that my letters do not slant consistently, even tho I have placed a Zanerian script guide page underneath.

 

I will next try a Mitchell oblique nib on the oblique holder to get a greater slant.

 

How I wish I can use an extra fine Rolatip on an oblique holder ...

 

CorienB 's instructions are more flowing and the letters alot more wider. I can do that with a ballpoint or FP but I can't with a copperplate nib. There must be something that I am not doing right.

 

Also, after writing , I find that there is a noticeable texture formed by the words. As if the nib has cut into the surface. Very obvious to the touch. Is that expected?

 

I guess practice makes perfect is needed here. It looks worse the more I look at it.

 

Any advice & guidance much appreciated .

 

 

 

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[BillTheEditor]

Actually, for a first attempt, this is pretty good. It takes patience and practice. Everything comes together eventually, including the slant and the width of the letters. It's also worth remembering that the exemplars were written by masters who had many years of experience and practice. Unless you are going to try to make a living doing this style of writing (I don't recommend that, by the way), you will get to a point that is "good enough" and people will be genuinely complimentary about your "handwriting."

[TMLee]

Thanks Bill for the encouragment.

 

I notice the Principal EF nibs are indeed really good as the others have said. It makes the thinnest thins and the widest wides. But I find them extremely toothy and hard to use.

 

Will try again using other nibs. I found that the Brause nib 66EF seems to be a lot smoother. I found my letters better formed. I make better formed letters when they are small. BTW , how large (letter height) is the normal copperplate hand ?

 

I have tried lowering the nib closer to the paper and it improves dramatically. Also I mount the nib in the holder about 11 o'clock instead of 12 o'clock. It makes a better contact with the paper.

[BillTheEditor]

BTW , how large (letter height) is the normal copperplate hand ?

There's not a "normal" letter height for copperplate. Because the nibs are flexible, you can vary the height to whatever you need, within the nib's limits. The trick is to pick the right nib -- smaller lettering requires a smaller nib with "snappier" action, and better control by the penman. Depends on what you have in mind. An envelope, an invitation, and a personal letter will use smaller letters (probably) than a quote for framing, an award, a testimonial, or names and information in a list of donors.

 

The bigger concern is keeping the right proportions between letter body height and the height of ascenders and descenders, and keeping the lines appropriately spaced so that ascenders and descenders clear each other. Think in terms of the whole page, not single letters, single words, or single lines.

 

How does your best effort with the dip pens compare to your best effort with a fountain pen?

 

Keep practicing.

Edited June 19, 2006 by BillTheEditor

[*david*]

For mountains of information on what iron gall ink is, and how it is made (even how to make your own if you feel adventurous), go here.

 

If you make your own, please only use it with a dip pen.

[kissing]

your handwriting makes me drool

 

Amazing penmanship

[TMLee]

I think I have a long , loooong way to go ....

 

http://paperpenalia.com/flex2.html

[TMLee]

Hi All ...

This was done a week ago with assortment of nibs. Tried smaller size fonts to ensure more control.

But its far from what was taught in paperpenalia.

 

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[TMLee]

Hi Again ,

 

this was done today... my latest attempt ....

 

Excuse the mispelling...

 

This was done real sloooowly and carefully, following instructions on forming the letters properly.

 

This time the letters are larger.

 

I need to space out my letters properly. Can someone teach me how?

 

Also, must each letter be joined to the others?

 

Would also appreciate if anyone can point me to some real samples done in that era. Might be useful to see how they write that time.

 

Brause 66EF nib on oblique holder + irongall ink and on Daler Rowney Calligraphy paper with Zanerian scriptline guide underneath.

 

TIA

 

 

 

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