Gold versus steel nib

[troglokev]

Some of the best reputed Japanese fountain pens have steel nibs: the shiro nibs from the 30s-50s. They have a reputation for being some of the best flex nibs around.

 

There is no physical or metallurgical reason why gold nibs should be better than steel, apart from corrosion resistance.

 

A question that hasn't arisen yet, though, is that of fidelity to original product. Do you value the originality of these pens? Many collectors do, in which case you may be better off keeping the steel nibs, provided they haven't corroded too much.

[spilled ink]

The steel nibs are in perfect condition.One is in a nearly perfect 100 (not N) tortoise while the other is in a nearly pefect 100N Lizard ,cream colored.with silver or white gold trim.

[Rufus]

The steel nibs are in perfect condition.One is in a nearly perfect 100 (not N) tortoise while the other is in a nearly pefect 100N Lizard ,cream colored.with silver or white gold trim.

 

If I were you I wouldn't change the nibs if they are in perfect condition, but you could have them tuned.

 

[Rufus]

I have never had a steel nib in good condition that wrote as well as a gold one in good condition.

 

Glenn, does this include your Bexley gold nibs? Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

 

[Glenn-SC]

I have never had a steel nib in good condition that wrote as well as a gold one in good condition.

 

Glenn, does this include your Bexley gold nibs? Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

 

Remember I said "a gold one in good condition"!!!!????

 

I actually consider most of my Bexley issues as Feed Problems, not one with the nibs.

(Except that dang Poseidon!)

[jkrewalk]

There is no difference - whether gold or steel the iridium tip is what you are writing with. I have steel nibs that write circles around some gold nibs (and vice versa). It's all in how they are tuned.

 

I tune my nibs myself. Today I am using an inexpensive (but beautiful) Taccia Doric with a Fine steel nib. I would wager you a thousand dollars that if you were blindfolded and given this pen and one with a gold nib that cost 500.00 that wasn't tuned you would choose my Doric as the better pen every time!

 

John

Krewalk.com

Edited March 8, 2009 by jkrewalk

[jkrewalk]

I have never had a steel nib in good condition that wrote as well as a gold one in good condition.

 

Glenn, does this include your Bexley gold nibs? Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

 

Remember I said "a gold one in good condition"!!!!????

 

I actually consider most of my Bexley issues as Feed Problems, not one with the nibs.

(Except that dang Poseidon!)

 

 

This is very odd to hear - I own 6 Bexley's and every one is a perfect writer out of the box. Bexley nibs are perhaps the smoothest and best of all as far as my experience goes!!! Oh well.....

 

[Glenn-SC]

There is no difference - whether gold or steel the iridium tip is what you are writing with. I have steel nibs that write circles around some gold nibs (and vice versa). It's all in how they are tuned.

 

Good for you!

IMHO there is a difference and a big one.

(except those dang Bexleys)

 

{See what you started Rufus, now I get to complain about Bexley's allllllll over again.}

[jkrewalk]

There is no difference - whether gold or steel the iridium tip is what you are writing with. I have steel nibs that write circles around some gold nibs (and vice versa). It's all in how they are tuned.

 

Good for you!

IMHO there is a difference and a big one.

(except those dang Bexleys)

 

{See what you started Rufus, now I get to complain about Bexley's allllllll over again.}

 

 

I am sorry you feel that way. My steel nibs are every bit as smooth and satisfactory as gold. I personally see no difference and never will.

[Rufus]

There is no difference - whether gold or steel the iridium tip is what you are writing with. I have steel nibs that write circles around some gold nibs (and vice versa). It's all in how they are tuned.

 

Good for you!

IMHO there is a difference and a big one.

(except those dang Bexleys)

 

{See what you started Rufus, now I get to complain about Bexley's allllllll over again.}

 

Me and my big mouth... :ltcapd:

 

[mr T.]

What are the differences in feel between the steel and gold nibs?

 

That depends on the design of the nib and the materials used.

 

These threads here on FPN could be an interesting:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=53539

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=36660

 

 

Maybe this is interesting article too: http://www.pentrace.net/penbase/Data_Retur...icle.asp?id=418

 

[JJBlanche]

The steel vs. gold topic has been done pretty much ad nauseum. The long and short of it is that a good steel nib can write as well or better when compared to a good gold nib. In my personal experience, I've had $8 Reforms (steel) write better when compared to $800 Montblancs (gold) -- not a joke or exaggeration.

 

It's pretty much all in how much attention said nib has been given. The vast majority of even semi-decent pens out there have nibs made of competent materials. It's all in the finishing, and/or what type of flex characteristics you like in a pen.

 

One thing to bear in mind: More gold does not necessarily equal a better pen. Although a 21K nib can be better when compared to a 14k nib, I would always take a 14k over a 21k, all other things being equal.

[RevAaron]

I recently purchased several vintage pens in fantastic condition from a reputable seller.The nibs on two of the pens are original war time production steel nibs.Should I have the seller replace these with gold 585 nibs?The pens are Pelikans.What are the differences in feel between the steel and gold nibs?

 

Pelikan's wartime alloy nibs are nice. Keep those nibs with the pens they came on. If you want to buy a 100N with a regular gold nib, there are oodles of them to be had- no fun killing the history in a wartime Pelikan.

 

I've more experience with MB's wartime nibs- they're just as nice as the earlier gold nibs. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them with your eyes closed.

[Robert Hughes]

As a glass-nib pen user I find this whole argument ridiculous picking at nits. It all comes down to color for you metal heads. Do you want a yellow nib or a white nib?

 

The real question is: glass (good) or metal (bad).

 

(Edit: Trom, look in the FP Reviews section - I put up reviews of a couple recently - the Haro II and the Spors)

Edited March 9, 2009 by Robert Hughes

[Trom]

As a glass-nib pen user I find this whole argument ridiculous picking at nits. It all comes down to color for you metal heads. Do you want a yellow nib or a white nib?

 

The real question is: glass (good) or metal (bad).

 

Are there only dip pens with glass nibs or also piston or converter pens that have a glass nib?

Which one would you recommend? I would like to try a glass nib.

 

[ANM]

There were some glass nib fountain pens produced in Japan. I think they were mostly war time, not sure. The ones I have seen were crescent type fillers.

[RevAaron]

Are there only dip pens with glass nibs or also piston or converter pens that have a glass nib?

Which one would you recommend? I would like to try a glass nib.

 

The one most folks around here know about is the Spors, a crescent filler available in some really wildly colorful plastics for the time (and still!) that are notoriously hard to restore.

 

A lot of companies made pens with glass nibs, at least at some point. Montblanc had at least one. I know I've seen other German and British pens with glass nibs, too.

 

No one makes them now, so you won't find one that takes a cartridge. Not terribly workable, either.

[troglokev]

The pentrace article is interesting, but it isn't quite there. The key parameter for flexibility is the strain at which plastic deformation occurs. This can be calculated from the strength and the elastic modulus, so for the materials used in nibs (using the numbers in the Pentrace article):

 

14K Gold: 2.5 - 5.6 x 10^-3

18K Gold: 1.5 - 4.0 x 10^-3

302SS: 3.8 - 4.5 x 10^-3

Ti6Al4V: 4.1 - 6.8 x 10^-3

 

The bigger this number is, the more flex you can have (for the same deformation strength). The range in the numbers for each material is due to variation in composition and treatment.

 

Essentially, this tells you that:

- a good 14K gold alloy is the best material to use, but the wrong alloy will give you less than half the flexibility of a good alloy,

- stainless steel is pretty good too, but gives you 20% less flex than good 14K for an equivalent design,

- stainless steel is better than most 18K alloys, and more consistent in its properties than gold,

- 18K alloys can be really poor (1.5 x 10^-3) or as good as stainless steel (4.0 x 10^-3), depending on composition,

- Titanium would be the best material if it wasn't for issues with weldability and formability that make it a really lousy material to use for a pen.

 

... and finally, the design is the key. You can make a good nib with any of these materials, but not everyone does.

 

Moreover, not everyone likes the same things in a nib. I like a bit of give, but I don't like too much flexibility. Others like their nibs to be stiff as a nail, and still others like a lot of flex. Horses for courses, and what I like in a nib may well be different from what Glenn-SC likes.

 

Sorry Bob, I don't have these numbers for glass.

Edited March 9, 2009 by troglokev

[Garageboy]

My steel Pelikan M200 nib writes like a dream

My Lamy Safaris never gave me the performance I wanted, so I guess it's all in the standards of manufacturing

I do hate plating on steel nibs as it seems to come off easily

Edited March 9, 2009 by Garageboy

[troglokev]

Hmm... my last post failed to kill this thread. Potty mouth.

 

Okay, in a quixotic attempt to kill off this thread, and all future threads of the same or similar title:

 

Here's a graph comparing the properties of the materials described in the pentrace article. These should be taken as representative, only. A much wider range of alloys get used in pen manufacture. It's a graph of stress against strain: we use these because they are characteristic of the material, rather than geometry. Strain is the deformation divided by a representative dimension in the direction of deformation.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3364/3343862352_51f817080b_m.jpg click for larger image

Link back

 

The straight line section of each graph is the range of strains for which no permanent deformation occurs. If strain exceeds a certain value (characteristic of the material) then permanent deformation occurs. For ductile gold, this value is quite small, but it can be deformed a long way before breaking (plastic deformation occurs for strain values in the flattened-off part of the graph). This makes gold an easy material to work with for jewellery and the like.

 

Note that I have included two types of 18K gold here: these represent extremes of the range of properties. Particular alloys will have properties somewhere between them, and the exact behaviour will depend on the other materials in the alloy, heat treatment, work hardening and so forth.

 

Steel is less ductile, and titanium even less so: this makes them more difficult to form than gold.

 

If we make a nib to a specified strength, it's actually the strain at which deformation occurs that determines how flexible a nib can be: if we plot deformation force against strain for these materials, we get this graph (steeper slopes mean less flexibility: i.e. greater force for the same deformation)

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3602/3343865198_e7ce9b81e3_m.jpg click for larger image

Link back

 

Essentially, in order to get sufficient strength, we need to make the ductile gold thicker than the 14K gold alloy, which reduces its flexibility to the point where it's more than twice as stiff as the steel nib.

 

We could, on the other hand, specify a particular flexibility for a nib design. In this case, the material chosen will affect the strength of the nib.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3411/3343867754_bb5da9fe14_m.jpg click for larger image

Link back

 

The softer materials lead to a weaker nib: one that can be easily sprung. We can also see that in order to gain the same flexibility as a 14K gold nib, a steel nib actually has to be weaker (even though it is a far stronger material), though more ductile alloys of gold will be weaker still.

 

The design compromises are there in those graphs: you can make a nib of any material flexible, at the cost of some strength, or strong, at the cost of some flexibility. In a world of ham-fisted ballpoint users, the latter choice is safer. As stated in my previous post, flexibility isn't what everyone wants in a nib: many people prefer the stiffer ones.

 

So, there you have it: when anyone asks the steel vs. gold question, you can point them at this post, and threaten to sic the Trog onto them.

 

This has been a public service announcement from Kevbilt Industries, tendentiousness to the cognoscenti.

Edited March 10, 2009 by troglokev