Shake the bottle?

[JDlugosz]

Some of my first reading here was about the "ink rituals". I was surprised to see that he shakes up the bottle, because my other reading is that over-saturated ink will settle. I don't want the sediment in the pen! Just what says in solution. But now on another thread I saw someone say that maybe he didn't shake the bottle well enough so the color is different.

 

Does that mean you have to shake up the pen too, to keep it from settling all the time? What?

 

--John

[Goodwhiskers]

It depends on the type of ink.

 

For less-saturated inks (pen brand inks, J Herbin, most Diamine colors), shaking is not necessary; Stuff In The Bottle would not have come from the ink and would reduce pen performance.

 

For more-saturated inks that can separate (some Noodler's colors, especially the browns and the completely and partially waterproof colors; some Private Reserve and Levenger colors), shaking or gentle turning can remix separated components, and SITB would probably not be foreign (or not foreign enough to reduce pen performance). One fix for these is to dilute them a little with de-ionized water. I haven't tried that, but several posts here have reported happiness from it, saying the color and behavior hardly changed at all.

[myles]

Guessing wildly here:

 

Well, I don't know much about what goes into inks, but settled components need not be solid sediment nor pen-clogging.

 

Think of water and oil (or, from a cooking perspective, water and vinegar).

 

Different components may thus eventually form separate layers if they sit undisturbed for some time but not neccessarily represent detrimental effects to a pen.

 

There also often seems to be ongoing confusion in description of ink as very saturated in the colour sense (meaning an intense vivid colour) versus saturation in the chemical sense (a completely different meaning of nearing the limit of dissolved matter). I suspect most pen people are referring to the former (colour) sense, but occasionally scaring people who are more used to the latter sense, although there also seem to be areas of blur and confusion where both meanings are present - possibly some inks are colour saturated because they are chemically saturated, but possibly some inks are colour saturated without being chemically saturated.

 

Regards, Myles.

 

[SamCapote]

Shake the bottle. Save the cheerleader.

[Deirdre]

I have a habit of just turning the bottle over 15 minutes before I fill, then turning it back upright. I do shake the eternal inks (because it's really helpful to), but not regular inks.

[Richard]

Different components may thus eventually form separate layers if they sit undisturbed for some time but not neccessarily represent detrimental effects to a pen.

Unfortunately, this isn't quite true.

 

Fountain pen ink, if properly made, is a solution. There is zero solid matter; all the solutes (dye, surfactant, biocide) are reduced to the molecular level and become one with the solvent (distilled water). If there is too much dye in the ink, it can precipitate out of solution in response to changes in temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure. Note the phrase "too much" -- dye will precipitate out only if there is too much. And if it can precipitate out in the bottle, it can precipitate out in your pen, where it will (not might, will) eventually build into a clog.

 

The one exception to the "no solids" rule is an ink like Noodler's bulletproof inks, which contain suspended micro-particulate matter. But this particulate matter is so fine that Brownian motion keeps it from settling.

 

Therefore, any settled solid matter in fountain pen ink should not be there, and if you shake the bottle you are simply stirring trouble into the ink.

[Titivillus]

For more-saturated inks that can separate (some Noodler's colors, especially the browns and the completely and partially waterproof colors; some Private Reserve and Levenger colors), shaking or gentle turning can remix separated components, and SITB would probably not be foreign (or not foreign enough to reduce pen performance).

 

Needing to shake an ink to get it's components back together bothers me.

 

And I brought this up in another thread about a red-black ink looking like 'bleh' with the suggestion that I needed to shake it to get it mixed. If it can seperate in the bottle it can seperate in the pen. Maybe all you get is a different color ink but maybe it is more of a problem.

 

Kurt

[aka]

Shake the bottle. Save the cheerleader.

 

Save the world!

 

Haha. I hope you were referring to the Heroes arc.

 

Anyway, I always shake the bottle, just to keep all the particles and liquid well mixed.

[myles]

The one exception to the "no solids" rule is an ink like Noodler's bulletproof inks, which contain suspended micro-particulate matter. But this particulate matter is so fine that Brownian motion keeps it from settling.

 

Therefore, any settled solid matter in fountain pen ink should not be there, and if you shake the bottle you are simply stirring trouble into the ink.

 

While settled particulate matter should certainly not be there, Noodler's Green Marine in particular seems to be more like my water and oil analogy. It seems to settle (after some weeks undisturbed) into a dark lower liquid layer and an upper more transparent green layer that seems to be more prone to wash off paper and possibly runnier (less surface tension perhaps?). A pen filled with Green Marine stored nib upright for a few weeks wrote with a brighter lighter green for some sentences before reverting to the darker tones I expect of Green Marine. There seems to be no hint

 

Since dried Green Marine on paper subjected to water seems to release a green colour quite readily leaving a greyish line, I wondered whether it might not be like a mix of black and green inks, where one colour is perhaps somehow different than the other (molecules heavier, more hydrophilic, something else?), leading to eventual liquid separation without necessarily a solid settling?

 

(Possibly related to the way it is possible to carefully layer different liquids in some cocktails?)

 

I have seen in a lab where it is possible to separate different mixed liquids due to their different specific gravity, using a centrifuge, and was wondering if it might not be possible to get the same effect over time purely through gravity?

 

Regards, Myles - happy to learn more about this interesting subject.

 

[JDlugosz]

... where one colour is perhaps somehow different than the other (molecules heavier, more hydrophilic, something else?), leading to eventual liquid separation without necessarily a solid settling?

 

(Possibly related to the way it is possible to carefully layer different liquids in some cocktails?)

 

I have seen in a lab where it is possible to separate different mixed liquids due to their different specific gravity, using a centrifuge, and was wondering if it might not be possible to get the same effect over time purely through gravity?

 

See solution, colloid, suspensions, and emulsion.

 

Liquids that are miscible dissolve in each other, like alcohol and water. They will not separate, and a centrifuge won't change that. Different liquids that are emulsified can "cream" on standing or with a centrifuge. However you would not easily mix it back up again; you'd have to re-beat it into tiny droplets. I can't imagine making ink that way, since at the scale of the capilary action it would resolve as different types of droplets.

 

--John

 

[Garageboy]

The only ink that I've seen settle to a great degree is Noodler's Bank Note- The green stays up top, a blue base settles to the bottom

[Melnicki]

I decided recently that I am going to STOP shaking my ink.

 

I originally was resilient and refused to shake, with reasoning like that of Richard and Kurt, here (why wouldn't it separate in the pen?). But then everyone on FPN started reporting that they shake their Noodler's and I admit I was peer-pressured into doing it. But recently a pen started out free-flowing (an unidentified Waterman brushed steel pen), marvelously wet for its fine nib. But soon gunk accumulated in the cartridge and the pen began writing only in fits, and needed to be flicked (but not with TOO much flicking!) to get another few sentences written. The ink was Swishmix Burgundy, by the way.

 

So now I'm not going to shake my bulletproof inks anymore. I don't find the change in color to be that drastic (shaken vs unshaken), and although I'm not cautious with my pens, I still would like my flow to be usable. Flicking a pen, or chugging a converter is NOT a solution to pen clogging (which I imagine will only get worse)

[Philip1209]

Think of water and oil (or, from a cooking perspective, water and vinegar).

 

Water and vinegar? Isn't vinegar just aqueous acetic acid, so adding water would cause a simple dilution, not density gradient?

 

Personally, I've never shaken inks, but, after reading this, I may begin to invert my Noodler's black. Thanks for bringing up such a thought-provoking topic.

[awolkoff]

Therefore, any settled solid matter in fountain pen ink should not be there, and if you shake the bottle you are simply stirring trouble into the ink.

 

Excellent explanation, thanks!

[JDlugosz]

Think of water and oil (or, from a cooking perspective, water and vinegar).

 

Water and vinegar? Isn't vinegar just aqueous acetic acid, so adding water would cause a simple dilution, not density gradient?

 

Personally, I've never shaken inks, but, after reading this, I may begin to invert my Noodler's black. Thanks for bringing up such a thought-provoking topic.

 

I think he misspoke. Oil and Vinegar is a classic example, which you need to shake to form an unstable emulsion before pouring on your greens.

 

 

[JDlugosz]

I decided recently that I am going to STOP shaking my ink.

 

I originally was resilient and refused to shake, with reasoning like that of Richard and Kurt, here (why wouldn't it separate in the pen?). But then everyone on FPN started reporting that they shake their Noodler's and I admit I was peer-pressured into doing it. But recently a pen started out free-flowing (an unidentified Waterman brushed steel pen), marvelously wet for its fine nib. But soon gunk accumulated in the cartridge and the pen began writing only in fits, and needed to be flicked (but not with TOO much flicking!) to get another few sentences written. The ink was Swishmix Burgundy, by the way.

 

So now I'm not going to shake my bulletproof inks anymore. I don't find the change in color to be that drastic (shaken vs unshaken), and although I'm not cautious with my pens, I still would like my flow to be usable. Flicking a pen, or chugging a converter is NOT a solution to pen clogging (which I imagine will only get worse)

 

I tend to agree. If Noodler's is "exotic" rather than a true solution, then it might be subject to focking and shaking that back in is not good. Likewise with other strange brews such as Registrar's ink. If it separates in the bottle, that should be noted in the review. Knowing the precise nature of that ink (not a guess, but a statement from the chemist) might give exceptions, but unless I know what the issue is, I'll reject it as an FP ink rather than shake it.

 

--John

 

 

[JJBlanche]

...but unless I know what the issue is, I'll reject it as an FP ink rather than shake it.

 

--John

 

I tend to agree with this. Through all the reading I've done, a proper fountain pen ink should not separate under any circumstances, similar to the alcohol in water example. If I find one of my inks does separate in the bottle over time, out it goes.

[antoniosz]

Just my $0.02 of observation- my Noodler's black and Legal Lapis give a weak color if I pull ink from the top of bottles that seat undisturbed for many days... The difference in color is huge.

[JJBlanche]

Just my $0.02 of observation- my Noodler's black and Legal Lapis give a weak color if I pull ink from the top of bottles that seat undisturbed for many days... The difference in color is huge.

 

What do you do to rectify the problem? Shake?

 

I suppose I really would like to hear some more on this topic, as I've just ordered a few "saturated" inks, among them Noodler's Aircorps near-bulletproof, which may or may not be prone to the settling problems.

[antoniosz]

Just my $0.02 of observation- my Noodler's black and Legal Lapis give a weak color if I pull ink from the top of bottles that seat undisturbed for many days... The difference in color is huge.

 

What do you do to rectify the problem? Shake?

 

I suppose I really would like to hear some more on this topic, as I've just ordered a few "saturated" inks, among them Noodler's Aircorps near-bulletproof, which may or may not be prone to the settling problems.

 

Shake .