Dipping Glass Vs Dipping Fp For Showing Color When Sampling Ink?

[vossad01]

I am wondering is if switching to a cheap glass dip pen would provide a significantly worse representation of the color than dipping a FP? Glass has the appeal of being easier to clean so I can sample faster and I would never have the intention of writing with the glass pen more than a line or two.

 

Currently, my process when i get an Ink Drop vial or make a mix is to dip a [designated] FP into it (generally not much past the start of the feed) and write out a line on a couple of different papers so I have a record of the color. Clean the pen and move onto the next sample.

 

As I have made more mixes and purchased more samples, I have started to find the time it takes to sample a bunch of inks an impediment. My goal is just to get a line of ink on the page so I can see the color from a pen.

 

I know inks can show variation between pens. I also know there can be variation between dipping the pen and filling the pen with ink, so my current method already has some error.

[flyingfox]

I have been using a glass pen to test inks, and works for my purposes.

 

Not all glass pens, however, are created equal... "Cheap" one, like the one by J. Herbin, tend to draw a very thick, fat line, a LOT more saturated than vast majority of fountain pens. I have a glass pen that is made by an artisan that writes a very thin line, very much like a F nib (what I usually use.) With this pen, I can write a whole paragraph with just one dip, and the ink color tend to be a lot better representative of that from a fountain pen. Incidentally, metal dip pens tend to work as well, and easy to clean.

[proton007]

The B&M store I buy inks from uses a metal dip nib for sampling inks.

 

Although the salesperson never flexes the dip nib (although it's a G-nib, moderately flexible), I try to flex it a bit. This way I have a wet, saturated fine line, and a relatively dry, spread out wide line.

The combination of both give a very good idea about how the ink is going to behave.

[ac12]

I have found the JHerbin glass pen unreliable also, too much ink.

I have used a metal dip pen, however, there are MANY nibs, and the selection of nib is critical. Some nibs hold too much ink and you get too much ink or a BLOB on the paper. Other nibs do not hold enough ink (fountain pen ink is more watery than dip pen ink). I tried an Esterbrook nib in my dip pen holder and it was a flop, too much ink at first, then it quickly dried out. Someone recommended a Goulet nib in a dip pen holder, but I have not tried it.

 

I have to try the G nib that proton007 mentioned. I have a Nikko G in my oblique holder right now.

[DanF]

I find G nibs unreliable for most inks for this purpose, leave too much ink on the page, so it is much darker than a fountain pen would be, and also a much finer line, unless flexed. which will make it even darker.

 

The best bet is to get a # 6 nib from Goulet's, or any #6 nib, and instal it in a standard dip pen holder. The tipping seems to slow down the ink flow to about the same level as a fountain pen, so the line will look vey similar to what the pen will lay down. That's about as close as you will be able to get without going through the trouble of cleaning an entire pen. It works well enough for me.

 

Dan

[discopig]

I find both dip pens and dipping fountain pens to be unreliable for showing the real color of an ink. Dip nibs drop too much ink at once and dipped fountain pens have very saturated feeds and also gush too much ink. When I really want to test an ink I'll usually just ink up one of my cheaper pens and write a bit with it.

[Sandy1]

Hi,

As these things go, I haven't found glass dip pens to give a result that I can extrapolate to what an FP might do with an ink. (My glass dip pens are most often used with inks containing gum arabic / shellac or are acrylic-based.)

 

Dipping an FP can give a good indication when used from dripping wet until run dry, though the pen needs to be cleaned-up afterwards.

To my mind, the group of samples must be sufficiently consistent to support comparison amongst inks - not be a jumble of stand-alone samples.

 

For quick sampling of ink, especially when conjuring a recipe of blended/diluted inks, I've come to favour dip pen nibs with reservoirs, such as the Brause Ornament series. However, those nibs will expire in somewhat short order, as they have no tipping and are not [typically] of the same type of steel used for FP nibs. Inconsistencies in setting the reservoirs also introduces some wobble.

 

We have the good fortune that Member dcwaits has once again come to our aid with his Topic A Better Dip Nib : https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/246789-a-better-dip-nib/?p=2690628
> With such dip pens, one could have several nibs with variations of width & wetness, so a range of reliable & consistent samples could be run in shot order.

In order to extrapolate the [dip pen] sample results to your FPs, the basic nature of each FP needs to be determined. Once again, consistent samples will to help choose the appropriate pen when its time to do some writing. Though when Ms Fussy is on the loose, a tailback of pens awaiting clean-up is not unheard of.

From my personal practice, I've found that generating a wide range of samples is best done over time - when a different pen+paper+ink combo is used.

Bye,
S1

Edited April 26, 2014 by Sandy1

[Paddler]

You can make nearly any dip pen nib behave like your favorite fountain pen nib. You just have to spend the time and effort needed to do the required adjustments. A nib that is set up for a thick India ink will be too juicy for a thin fountain pen ink. One that is set up to write a thin line with fountain pen ink probably won't feed India ink at all. However, it is easy to switch between these characteristics with a given nib. It is easiest to start out with a nib that closely matches your requirements, but it is by no means necessary.

[dcwaites]

I have tried a wide range of metal dip pen nibs, and found the best, for me, was the Perry Iridinoid 105 nib, as it is built like the front end of a fountain pen, but with a reservoir rather than a feed.

 

I have tried a couple of types of glass nib, and found them a bit too wet and inconsistent. They start out wet just after being dipped, and slowly get drier until the ink dries out. Somewhere in the written line is the depth of colour that matches an FP, but how do you tell?

 

As Sandy one pointed out, I get the best and most consistent results, that match what I would get from a fountain pen, but taking inexpensive nibs and mounting them in a dip pen holder. I now have #4, #5 and #6 nibs set up this way.

 

I find this is a good way to compare a number of inks, as all I need to do to change from one in to another is to rinse the pen in a glass of water and shake it dry. It is then ready for the next ink.

 

They are also a nice way to write a short piece with an ink if you don't want to fill a pen.

[ac12]

I tried an Esterbrook nib in my holder, and that did not work for me.

It started out WET, then quickly went to DRY, with virtually no time in the middle looking like that ink out of an Esterbrook.

 

If I can find another nib to try, I will try and see if I get a different result.

[vossad01]

Thank you to everyone for your input and details of experiences; they have been most helpful. It seems clear now that a glass pen is not the way to go, but it sounds promising that dip pen would be a workable solution.

 

Now I get to do some reading up and learning about dip pens. Approaching it like in the post Sandy1 linked, I already have some loose #5 and #6 nibs, so I think it is just a matter of finding a "holder." Once I have that set up, I figure I can compare it to the results I have been getting with my dipped FP. If the results are not suitable, then it sounds like learning about dip nibs and the adjustment there of will be the next step after that.

[mhosea]

I haven't tried a glass pen, but I have tried dip pens, and I found the lack of a feed to be an issue with many FP inks. Consequently, I took my (cheap) dip pen holder that had cracked, anyway, and fitted it with a disused Noodler's Konrad flex nib. By itself that wouldn't solve any problem, but I also fitted a disused "Wality" nib just below and behind it to form a narrow gap between the nibs that could function as a reservoir. I ground the tip off the Wality nib so it would not interfere with flexing the Konrad nib. Then I epoxied it in place. I might have ground back the Wality nib a little too far, but it still works pretty well for testing inks, and it cleans easily.

Edited April 26, 2014 by mhosea

[RudyR]

I've had pretty good results from using a R & K glass dip pen for writing and ink testing. You have to be careful that you don't overcharge the nib with ink otherwise you lay down a too wet line (and I found this true with my less capable J Herbin glass pen). I give the pen a bit of a twirl as I write to exposing other channels to direct contact with the paper. As the pen starts running out of ink, it does lay down a fine line. The result is a complete example of broad to fine metal nib simulation.

 

There is a quality of the glass nib that helps evaluate the tenacity (or wetness) of the ink. The glass seems to be slicker than a metal nib and as a result, the excessively wet inks, gush from the nib onto the paper in fire hose fashion complete with fire bells, sirens and bullhorn usage (" stay away...... the fluid is hazardous to your paper..... stop immediately").

 

The ability to clean and flush a ink is best evaluated with a glass dip pen. I have had inks from THE COMPANY THAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED FOR FEAR OF DAMNATION that stuck to the nib and had to be mechanically removed out of the flutes (this included knife blades, toothpicks and needles).

 

And finally, you can use it to pick up and examine that strange material floating in your ink known as "What the ........... is this?"

[vossad01]

Okay, so I still do not really know anything about dip pens and how to use them, but I ordered 3 different holders (amortize shipping cost) from Paper and Ink Arts (no affiliation) which arrived today. The are the Round Double Wooden Penholder, DipStik pen holder, and Universal Holder. The Double Wooden was the easiest to figure out how to get a nib in, the other I eventually figured out but it is more difficult (and I had to handle the nibs a bit to get them in). The only one I am comfortable putting a #6 nib in is the DipStik (and I wasn't sure about that one at first). It may be possible to get a #6 in the others but I do not want to try that hard to get it in; #5 nibs work fine in all of them though.

Just dipping it I will be a bit too wet if do not wipe the excess off on the side of the ink vial. But then if I wipe it I only get a couple words (with the #5 nib anyway)


My solution was to try to add a "reservoir" since it was mentioned to use dip nibs that have those I attached the piece of tape so it is not actually stuck to the back of the nib. (On the first one, I had it stuck just in the middle, but while that worked well, it was harder to clean). This makes it more work to clean and it helps to have a bit of paper towel handy to wick the water out. It is still a considerable improvement over dipping a FP. Some credit for the idea needs to go to Nathan Tardif who has suggested using a piece of tape for adding an over feed to his flex nibs to avoid railroading (and idea I have not tired yet).



With that modification, it seems to do quite well. Here in-between lines of some old notes (written with an inked pen) I wrote the same text with a dipped nib that matched line thickness pretty well. I annotated the first lines.


At the top here I used the same ink with 4 different nibs. 3 were dipped and one was an inked FP:



I would say that is good enough for me. This looks like it will be generally more accurate than my dipping of a FP. Looking back to my old sample of this color, I clearly did not have my pen completely dry at the time because that sample is considerably lighter.

[Bo Bo Olson]

If you only use nails and monotone supersaturated inks...I can see a glass nib as ok for showing you a color.

 

Should you use shading inks, does a glass nib shade?

I gave away my glass nibbed pen, soon after I got it.

 

I use to use 8 assorted nib width's and flexes to test an ink and 4-5 papers...not on Sandy's level a line or so with each nib. In that width and flex + paper gives something different so often; I really don't see any reason to use glass nib.

Of course I seldom buy mono-tone ink.

 

Now I only use three & 3 papers...gotten lazy...got too many inks to worry about.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson