Info: Caran D'ache "no Neutral Ph" Response To Corroded Cap

April 22, 2014

In regards to this thread where the cap was corroded with little pittings (and it was a new bottle from the retailer)

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/caran_clean5.jpg

I got this information back from Caran d'Ache:

Dear Karl,

As all fountain pen inks, the Caran d'Ache ink has no neutral PH. In the case of Chromatics "Electric orange" the ink is alkaline (PH > 7). This high PH protects the ink from the contaminations and prevents the mold. This chemical property alters certain metals. In your case the metal of the lid is not correctly protected by the outer layer and it has deteriorated.

The fountain pen nibs are made in massif gold or stainless steel, they are noble metals which do not deteriorate even during long contact with ink. There is no problem in the use of this ink for the Caran d’Ache fountain pens.

On the other hand, the plating of the lid on the photo is insufficient, we apologize for that. We have transferred your case to our After Sales Service, for guarantee replacement. To avoid future problems and to improve the product, we developed a new lid for the Chromatic ink bottles.

Indeed, the new versions of the bottle have got a lid with a resin insert, that improves the waterproofness, and the protection of the metallic lid. This also gives it a more smoothly and comfortable screwing.

We thank you for your interest in our products and hope that they will continue to give you full satisfaction.

The Caran d'Ache Team

Though I'm curious, does certain resin, plastics, rubbers, etc get negatively affected by something like pH > 7 alkaline?

April 22, 2014

This also gives it a more smoothly and comfortable screwing.

An unfortuante choice of words has locked up my brain with juvenile comments.

Anyway, >7 doesn't really say much when the scale goes to 14 (drain cleaner). Ammonia is around 11, and a 50/50 solution of that and water (which is around 7.2) is a favorite cleaner for pens.

I'll check the inside of my caps this afternoon.

April 22, 2014

As all fountain pen inks, the Caran d'Ache ink has no neutral PH.

That is some bold statement, just as bold as some Noodler's inks bearing the phrase 'always pH neutral'.

April 22, 2014

That is some bold statement, just as bold as some Noodler's inks bearing the phrase 'always pH neutral'.

Yea I was thinking they meant all Caran d'Ache ink... not ALL FP ink... because I actually have a bottle of Noodler's Black Eel on my desk with the "Always pH Neutral" label on it.

An unfortuante choice of words has locked up my brain with juvenile comments.

Anyway, >7 doesn't really say much when the scale goes to 14 (drain cleaner). Ammonia is around 11, and a 50/50 solution of that and water (which is around 7.2) is a favorite cleaner for pens.

I'll check the inside of my caps this afternoon.

Except you usually don't leave Ammonia/Cleaning/etc stuff in a pen for more than an evening, at most a couple hours. But I was mainly curious because Ammonia and such for example doesn't also have sediments in it, when it may dry and such onto the feed, I think Vinegar is around 5, and since we don't keep Ammonia in the house, I'm usually doing soaks in Vinegar instead.

Edited April 22, 2014 by KBeezie

April 22, 2014

Yea I was thinking they meant all Caran d'Ache ink... not ALL FP ink... because I actually have a bottle of Noodler's Black Eel on my desk with the "Always pH Neutral" label on it.

Except you usually don't leave Ammonia/Cleaning/etc stuff in a pen for more than an evening, at most a couple hours. But I was mainly curious because Ammonia and such for example doesn't also have sediments in it, when it may dry and such onto the feed, I think Vinegar is around 5, and since we don't keep Ammonia in the house, I'm usually doing soaks in Vinegar instead.

True, but leaving ammonia in a pen long-term wasn't really my point (although I did digress). The point was that >7 is so vague that it is meaningless.

April 22, 2014

An unfortuante choice of words has locked up my brain with juvenile comments.

Anyway, >7 doesn't really say much when the scale goes to 14 (drain cleaner). Ammonia is around 11, and a 50/50 solution of that and water (which is around 7.2) is a favorite cleaner for pens.

I'll check the inside of my caps this afternoon.

April 22, 2014

True, but leaving ammonia in a pen long-term wasn't really my point (although I did digress). The point was that >7 is so vague that it is meaningless.

Oh that's true, cuz "above" 7 could mean it's 7.2 or 14 so I see your point.

In regards to the comment about pH neutral for all FP inks, I Sent them this comment and received a response:

Thanks for the information, was quite useful, and I'm glad to see that you are progressing with improvements on the bottle designs.

I'm assuming that alkaline ink doesn't hurt plastic, ebonite(rubber), resin/etc outside of perhaps staining them?
Btw I was curious with this phrase: As all fountain pen inks, the Caran d'Ache ink has no neutral PH.

Seeing as I have a bottle of Noodler's Black Eel on my desk with "Always pH Neutral" right on the label.

Dear Karl,

You are totally right, alcaline ink won’t hurt the resin insert, nor plastic or rubber materials.

Concerning your second question, it is true that Noodler’s is one of very few manufacturers to produce fountain pen inks with a neutral pH. Caran d’Ache and other main brands in Europe (Pelikan, Waterman, Mont Blanc, Parker, Sheaffer, etc.) do not offer such inks. However, all Caran d’Ache inks are very safe to use with your fountain pen and won’t damage the nib of your writing instrument in any way.

Best,

The Caran d'Ache Team

April 22, 2014

An unfortuante choice of words has locked up my brain with juvenile comments.

... I can't believe I just now got that...

September 26, 2014

Though I'm curious, does certain resin, plastics, rubbers, etc get negatively affected by something like pH > 7 alkaline?

Well, I'm not an expert in chemistry but I do have a fair bit of basic knowledge.

First, I'm not trying to bash on the company but I do not like how Caran d'Ache responded to your email. It was fairly misleading.

Gold is noble metal, however, stainless steel is metal alloy which is created by combining steel (carbonated iron) and other metals. There are many different grades of stainless steel due to the different combinations with those "other metals".

There is only 1 grade of stainless steel that can be compared with noble metals: the medical implant grade. Just like the name suggested, this stainless steel is used in surgical implant. This grade of stainless steel is created often from the combination of steel (carbonated iron) and very high amount of carbonated chromium (sometime: palladium, titanium are included) and is highly resistant to corrosion.

Often, we most likely can not know for sure which grade of stainless steel that has been used to make our nibs. Thus, I think it's quite bold for Caran d'ache to be 100% certain that all stainless steel would be fine because one could end up with a poor corrode resistant type of stainless steel ( eg: very high amount of carbonated iron and less "other metals" - more steel but minimal stainless).

To OP question: There is a talk about the fact that celluloid can be broken down from strong enough alkaline (according to Mr. Richard Binder web) but I have been doing some searching (that got me to your post) and find nothing else. I do want some knowledge in this matter too because I'll hate it to see my Sheaffer celluloid section gets damaged by Asa gao.

September 26, 2014

To OP question: There is a talk about the fact that celluloid can be broken down from strong enough alkaline (according to Mr. Richard Binder web) but I have been doing some searching (that got me to your post) and find nothing else. I do want some knowledge in this matter too because I'll hate it to see my Sheaffer celluloid section gets damaged by Asa gao.

Also there seems to be something against Alkaline (or japanese inks in general). I Recall when I contacted Indy-Pen-Dance regarding the plating coming off my bexley nib for least some theories (the most plausible one just being poor plating to begin with). But there was a portion of the response from Linda that kind of had me scratching my head:

Japanese inks are also highly alkaline, so they could be the culprit as well when looking at nib plating issues.

... Normally I would suspect acids to cause a problem (ie: under the pH of water), not higher than water (pH7). So mainly why I was curious in terms of alkaline inks. Also I know that Linda was trained under Richard Binder, so the line of thinking could be from that association.

September 26, 2014

Stainless steel is not a noble metal. It is iron+carbon, which makes steel and it's resistance to corrosion ("stainless") is due to the addition of Chromium. If I remember correctly, the industry definition of stainless begins around 11 to 11.5% Chromium content, however, most manufacturers will not call the metal "stainless" until the Chromium content is at least 13%. Other small amounts of different metals like Silicon and Vanadium are added to improve its strength and toughness by altering the grain formation, rather than just adding more carbon, which eventually makes the steel unacceptably brittle.

Regardless, Chromium is not listed as a nobel metal on its own, obviously Iron and Carbon(non-metallic) are not.

A poor choice of wording was used.

Edited September 26, 2014 by FLZapped