Permanent Inks

[Charles Skinner]

I read a lot about "permanent," or "bullet proof" inks. I just got out my journal from 1963 to check on the ink. I am not sure with brand it was, but it certainly was not "permanent" ink. There was NO fading at all after 50 years! So, what is the big deal about "permanent" ink in relation to the ability to be readable in the future?

 

I know that there is the matter of words on paper getting wet, and as I understand it, permanent inks stand up better in that torture test. As far as I believe, at this time, there is very little chance of my journals getting wet. And even if they do, it will not be the "end of the world." I write them for ME ---- right now ---- not for someone else in the distant future.

 

Your thoughts please.

 

C. S.

[migo984]

I'm unconcerned about waterproofness or permanency when choosing an ink. In over 40 years of daily use of my fountain pens, not once has anything I've written, or any of my journals, been affected by water or other spillages. And like your experience, even if my older work has very slightly faded in one or two journals, it is very minor stuff. Let's face it; who's really going to be bothered about our scribblings in the future anyway. I'm more concerned about visual appeal and good behaviour in the pen. When I read ink reviews I always skip the water-resistance/fade tests. I have never understood the heightened anxiety of folks about this.

[doggonecarl]

I use all kinds of inks, but I'm partial to bulletproof inks, or at least water resistant, especially for signing my name, for letter writing and addressing envelopes, for checks, and so forth.

 

However, to be concerned exclusively about the permanent nature of inks is to limit yourself to a wide range of ink. That said, if I had to use one ink for the rest of my FP use, I would go with a bulletproof one, probably Noodlers Black.

[Bigeddie]

I have never understood wanting to sign your name in bullet proof / permanent ink; surely your signature is the first thing you want to disappear on any document people might attempt to forge or modify. I would want the amount on a cheque to stay permanently but the signature to be the first thing that bleaches off.

 

The only regular use that I put permanent inks to because of their permanence is writing addresses on envelopes.

[amberleadavis]

Charles,

 

I come from a culture where the personal journals of individuals describing their daily thoughts, works, fears, foods, growing tips, family lines are all important understandings of a time and place. While I would say that I don't usually subject my daily journal to water, I have lost work to spills and fading has happened to me even in closed books. I have conducted the fade experiments to show the harmful effects of light on ink. Generally, I figure if it will withstand 6 months of a Las Vegas Summer, it will make it through a couple of decades in any reasonable environment. If it fades within weeks, you probably don't want to use it for your journals, but I'd use it for check writing if it were water resistant.

[AllenG]

I have two places I use a "bullet proof" ink. Correspondence, because I have received wet mail countless times, and I sign my art with Noodler's Blue Ghost because I find signatures on art distracting. I used to sign my art with a pencil for archival reasons; I don't want an acidic ink harming the print years down the road. Blue Ghost is supposed to be archival.

Edited April 21, 2014 by AllenG

[lapis]

I'm unconcerned about waterproofness or permanency when choosing an ink. In over 40 years of daily use of my fountain pens, not once has anything I've written, or any of my journals, been affected by water or other spillages. And like your experience, even if my older work has very slightly faded in one or two journals, it is very minor stuff. Let's face it; who's really going to be bothered about our scribblings in the future anyway. I'm more concerned about visual appeal and good behaviour in the pen. When I read ink reviews I always skip the water-resistance/fade tests. I have never understood the heightened anxiety of folks about this.

+N on this. Of course, if you're under cats and dogs of water and working on testaments and/or mortgages, and your lawyers etc demand such waterproof documents immediately, then... sure, go ahead and order and use same.....

[dcwaites]

The problems is that the word Permanent has no fixed meaning in the inky world.

 

Some people, Parker in particular, use it to mean mildly water resistant.

Others use it to mean that it won't fade over several decades when used on good paper and stored under good conditions in the dark.

Still others mean that it won't wash away under water.

Still others mean that the ink is made of pigment particles that attach to the paper fibres and won't wash out under water, and won't fade.

Bulletproof has a particular meaning used by Nathan Tardiff where the dyes react with cellulose fibres and can't be removed without damaging the paper.

Museums use the word Archival to mean Permanent ink that won't fade in storage for several hundred years.

Bulletproof doesn't necessarily mean Archival because we don't know how those inks will stand the test of exposure to oxygen over centuries. It simply means that the ink won't be removed by a range of laboratory chemicals.

 

Each ink has a particular set of characteristics including, but not limited to, Colour, Intensity, Shading, Feathering Resistance, Bleeding Resistance, and degree of Permanence.

You choose an ink based on which of those characteristics are most important for the task at hand.

If I want an ink to look beautiful, I will choose a beautiful ink.

If I want an ink to last a thousand years, I will choose an ink that I know will last a thousand years.

If I want to use an ink in a situation where it might get wet, I will use a highly waterproof ink.

If I have to write notes on cheap office-supplied paper, I will choose an ink that has high Feathering and Bleeding Resistance.

 

I do not and will not get hung up on one particular ink property to the detriment of others.

[casualmerlinconstant]

Inks do not really fade to illegibility regardless of what claims they make. I do walk through the rain a lot though, so I usually prefer an ink with some semblance of water resistance. This is mostly a precautionary measure however, and lately I'm much too entranced by pretty colours to bother with waterproof-ness. I do tend to do exams in bulletproof inks, however, just in case a marker spills coffee on my paper and obliterating my work haha.

Edited April 22, 2014 by superglueshoe

[ethernautrix]

I didn't care too much about permanent ink until I perused journals that were only a couple of years old and the ink had faded -- about events that I wanted to remember (my journals being my own personal reference library). And since I can be clumsy (knocking over glasses and such), I have been glad that I used waterproof ink. Also for drawing, waterproof black works for my purposes.

 

I don't worry myself about what other people's preferences are. Want to write with eye-searingly vibrant ink? Go for it! Want to use waterproof inks exclusively? Why not? Want to mix up? Live it up!

I spend no time wondering why people choose different qualities for their inks, even when their choices are different from mine.

[Paddler]

I started journaling in the 1950s, using Skrip washable blue ink (mostly). The journals have been kept in a desk drawer since then. The washable blue ink has faded to near illegibility while Skrip red has remained vivid. The paper is still white and supple.

 

If permanent, bulletproof, fade resistant, waterproof, water resistant, archival inks are available, why not use them? The extra features don't cost more. They have never harmed the pens I have used them in. They potentially let me share my stories with more people than writers can who use inks that last only two weeks in the sun.

 

We record our music for the same reason. We don't make a dime at it; we do it because people like to listen to it. How do I know that? I know it because I have caught people bootlegging it.

[Chris]

Some inks fade.

I used Quink blue-black to write my notes when doing an MSc in 1989/90. I recently had occasion to look something up from back then. Although I could read in my mind's eye where in my notes I needed to look, when I got to the relevant section, even in a closed folder, the ink has faded to a shadow of its former self. Yes, I could read the notes, just, but not for much longer.

I'm just glad I hadn't used washable blue or there would have been nothing left.

[ethernautrix]

Got caught on my bike in a lightning-and-thunder storm - man, was that exhilarating! Fun! Glad I use waterproof Noodler's Black, cos my bag was soaked through. I lucked out this time. The water hadn't yet soaked through to my notebook, although my bag was soaked, is still soaked. I'd just written notes about friends' performance piece for which they wanted my collaboration. Not to mention the couple of months of notes of being here.

[Abner C. Kemp]

It depends on your definition of Permanent. Permanent inks that are fraud proof and all of that nonsense never really meant anything to me. However, I do enjoying having some inks that are at least somewhat water resistant. Generally, it's not a big deal for journaling in general since journals are usually kept sealed on a book shelf somewhere which naturally preserves the ink/paper from harmful elements.

[yogalarva]

I only ever care about water resistance in my inks, because I am a physicist and we are fueled almost exclusively by coffee. And, physicists tend not to be a graceful bunch, if you know what I mean...

 

But all the other claims don't mean much to me. I doubt that most of my work will ever be subjected to much more than a possible dampening, so that's all I prepare for. :-)

[Caventinck]

I have used different inks and my favourite inkmaker remains J. Herbin. As I keep journals, I would like them to remain in pristine condition for many years (50+). I currently use J. Herbin's green lierre sauvage, but I heard that coloured inks are not as permanent (aside from the iron galls such as Salix by R&K).

 

What ink by J. Herbin would you guys recommend that doesn't fade over time? Perle noire or perhaps something else?

Edited May 4, 2014 by Caventinck

[inkstainedruth]

Inks do not really fade to illegibility regardless of what claims they make. I do walk through the rain a lot though, so I usually prefer an ink with some semblance of water resistance. This is mostly a precautionary measure however, and lately I'm much too entranced by pretty colours to bother with waterproof-ness. I do tend to do exams in bulletproof inks, however, just in case a marker spills coffee on my paper and obliterating my work haha.

I guess you've never used Quink Washable Blue.... Which, in my experience, *did* fade after a matter of months in a closed journal. A lot. It might not be completely illegible, but it was very hard to read because it was so pale -- much paler than when it went down on the page.

I'm not sure I buy all the hype about Noodler's inks, but I *do* tend to use Kung Te Cheng, El Lawrence, or 54th Massachusetts when signing checks or addressing envelope. Which have the added advantage of being (to me) very nice or interesting colors. But for my journal? Anything goes -- it's whatever I have in a pen on any particular given day. This morning it was Noodler's North African Violet. Yesterday it was Diamine Emerald. Tomorrow, it might be De Atramentis Rose. Or vintage Quink Brown (not sure if that one is Washable or Permanent, because when I bought the bottle a couple of summers ago it was missing the paper label, and a swab test made me think it was possibly oxidized Quink Red (it was sort of a burgundy color in the swab test, but in a pen it definitely goes down on the page and dries brown).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[amberleadavis]

I have used different inks and my favourite inkmaker remains J. Herbin. As I keep journals, I would like them to remain in pristine condition for many years (50+). I currently use J. Herbin's green lierre sauvage, but I heard that coloured inks are not as permanent (aside from the iron galls such as Salix by R&K).

 

What ink by J. Herbin would you guys recommend that doesn't fade over time? Perle noire or perhaps something else?

Look at my fade tests.

 

Here's a quick look ...

 

http://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/Tests/Fade/2012/Subjects/slides/64-2012-10-14_001.jpg

[Charles Skinner]

What was the time between these two? C. S.

[inkstainedruth]

interesting. Think I almost like the color of the faded version of Lie de Thé better than the unfaded version. But the faded version of Vert Empire is closer (but paler) in color to the sample I tried than the unfaded version (mine was a lot softer and somewhat greyer a green).

Of course, the writing sample of Rouge Hematite also looks a lot redder than what I have (mine is more of a brick red, sort of a dark orange-y red). Is this the version with or without the metallic gold flecks in the bottle?

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth