Parker Vacumatic Maxima?

[Lazard 20]

Before proceeding, a clarification: We are not arguing about what we see. Naturally, we all see the same thing; a Parker Vacumatic about 135 mm long, 61 mm cap long and 13.5 mm in diameter cap band with double or single jewel. We're talking about AS Parker called this fountain pen what we see and, in my opinion, you´ll see why it's wrong names such as Long Major and " true fountain pen" that would talk about other "false fountain pen".

First we will see a list of products of 1948 made ​​by Parker when these pens had been manufactured and where they see no need to differentiate between Maxima and Major. It is simple, there is no need to invent names.

There are only Maximas and Majors.

http://s27.postimg.org/kxkmb9ldv/1948_07_26_LISTA_BD_NON_BD.jpg

Edited February 11, 2014 by Lazard 20

[FarmBoy]

So the Sr Maxima and Maxima listed on Page 16 are two pens of different sizes that both cost 10.00.?

 

Is there a copy of page 16 available? It likely lists the repair parts cost and that would be interesting.

[Lazard 20]

The names and proportions of vacs listed at the bottom are taken from original catalogs Parker (names in brackets are only personal notes).

Thus we see that while this model of 135 mm in length and 13.5 mm. diameter cap from its appearance was called:

 

1937 MAXIMA

1938 MAXIMA

1939 SLENDER MAXIMA

1940 SLENDER MAXIMA

 

1941 From here, with the apparition of "51" Parker just talking about Maxima and without distinction between them, as you can see too in this Parker ads collection:

 

Parker ads

 

We know that this Parker vac of 135 mm long and 13,5 mm cap band was called Maxima as first or last name, but always Maxima and ever Major and as we shall see, the two Maximas of 135 mm length -regardless of the diameter- had a different band to the Major of 127 mm.

 

Parker therefore easily distinguish the Maxima in length and cap band, It's easy since the chevron band "closed" is imposed; Maxima -135 mm and "two verticals" closing the engraving zone chevron band - vs Major -127 mm and "one vertical" closing the engraving zone chevron band-.

 

We can also do it without inventing anything: 135 mm. and "two verticals" are Maxima in opposition to Major of 127 mm and only "one vertical".

 

Maxima, not Major, not "Long Major" or neither true nor false fountain pen. Then we could continue, as we do with other models, with distinctions such as double or single jewel, the year of manufacture or metal or plastic vac system, or nib/feed, for example, but Maxima is that, a Maxima

 

 

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5534/11499461956_a96654dc91_o.jpg

Edited February 11, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

Some nice examples of Maximas (Slender if we want last name) of 135 mm length, 13.5 mm diameter in cap band and the chevron band "Lazard double vertical". Taken in a fully aseptic sampling of virtually all Vacumatics auctioned in Ebay during January 2014. Each one has about 135 mm. and, of course, "vertical double" chevron band. If it awakens your curiosity, you can entertain with this matter in the next PenShow that you visit... and defend the honor of his real and beautiful name -Maxima, Slender Maxima if you so wish, but Maxima- if you want to do, of course!

.

http://s28.postimg.org/n6rxbd3vx/1939_2_T_goldenr_maxima_2_VERTICALES.jpg

http://s28.postimg.org/tj72l76y5/1941_VERTICAL_BD_SLENDER_MAX.jpg

http://s21.postimg.org/fqj7cvp3r/1940_silver_slender_maxima_2_VERTICALES.jpg

Edited February 11, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

More examples:

 

http://s17.postimg.org/5xbf7b6u7/1942_2_T_MAXIMA_DOBLE_VERTICAL.jpg

http://s7.postimg.org/ppu1elnmj/1940_4_T_azure_slender_maxima_2_VERTICALES.jpg

[Lazard 20]

More examples 135 mm and double vertical chevron band:

http://s14.postimg.org/alna805ip/1940_3_T_azure_slender_maxima_2_VERTICALES.jpg

http://s27.postimg.org/pw90b5wyr/1941_4_T_slender_m_xima_134mm_2_verticales_azure.jpg

http://s28.postimg.org/optiw0h7x/1939_3_T_SLENDER_MAXIMA_DOS_VERTICALES.jpg

[kirchh]

Lazard -

 

You are mixing two different models of pens and calling both Maxima.

 

One model, with a narrower cap band and smaller nib, is actually a Major. Collectors today refer to these Majors, which are longer than the Majors of earlier or later years, as "Long Majors." They represent the version of the Major made during the period from the end of 1938 through the start of 1943.

 

The different model of the same length, but with a wider cap band and a larger nib, is a Slender Maxima.

 

Both of these models were offered for a few years.

 

You are confused about this; you have combined two different models -- the Major and the Slender Maxima -- into one, and you have called both models "Slender Maxima". But there are really two different models. The one with the narrower band and smaller nib is the Major. Both pens are the same length for a few years.

 

Just to be clear: The Major and the Slender Maxima were the same length for a few years. The Major had a narrower cap band than did the Slender Maxima. The Major also had a smaller nib than did the Slender Maxima. Therefore, today we find pens of the same length and girth from those years, but some pens have a narrower cap band and smaller nib -- the Major -- and some have a wider cap band and a larger nib -- the Slender Maxima.

 

By your incorrect reasoning, all Vacumatics of the length and girth of the Slender Maxima from that time period are Slender Maximas, even if they have narrower cap bands and smaller nibs.

 

Also, according to you, a Major from that time period will be shorter -- about 127mm. Majors are, of course, quite common pens. Therefore, you should be able to post many pictures of examples of such Majors (128mm) from the end of 1938 through the beginning of 1943. Better still, pictures showing Majors and purported Slender Maximas from the same year side-by-side would be very enlightening, for 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942...

 

Unless you can support your claim that the Major from that time period was 128mm by posting several examples with measurements and date codes visible, your claim is baseless.

 

--Daniel

Edited February 12, 2014 by kirchh

[kirchh]

  On 2/11/2014 at 11:04 AM, Lazard 20 said:

Some nice examples of Maximas (Slender if we want last name) of 135 mm length, 13.5 mm diameter in cap band and the chevron band "Lazard double vertical". Taken in a fully aseptic sampling of virtually all Vacumatics auctioned in Ebay during January 2014. Each one has about 135 mm. and, of course, "vertical double" chevron band. If it awakens your curiosity, you can entertain with this matter in the next PenShow that you visit... and defend the honor of his real and beautiful name -Maxima, Slender Maxima if you so wish, but Maxima- if you want to do, of course!

 

I'll help straighten this out by labeling these pens correctly.

 

  Quote

 

.

http://s28.postimg.org/n6rxbd3vx/1939_2_T_goldenr_maxima_2_VERTICALES.jpg

 

That's a Slender Maxima.. Notice the wider cap band.

 

  Quote

 

 

http://s28.postimg.org/tj72l76y5/1941_VERTICAL_BD_SLENDER_MAX.jpg

 

That's a Major (called a "Long Major" by collectors, to distinguish it from the shorter versions that preceded and followed it). Notice the larrower cap band.

 

  Quote

 

 

http://s21.postimg.org/fqj7cvp3r/1940_silver_slender_maxima_2_VERTICALES.jpg

 

That's a Major (collector term="Long Major" per above). Note the narrower cap band.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Continuing the proper labeling of these examples:

 

  On 2/11/2014 at 11:10 AM, Lazard 20 said:

More examples 135 mm and double vertical chevron band:

http://s14.postimg.org/alna805ip/1940_3_T_azure_slender_maxima_2_VERTICALES.jpg

 

That is a ("Long") Major. Note the narrower cap band.

 

  Quote

 

 

http://s27.postimg.org/pw90b5wyr/1941_4_T_slender_m_xima_134mm_2_verticales_azure.jpg

 

Another "Long" Major. Note the narrower cap band and smaller nib.

 

  Quote

 

http://s28.postimg.org/optiw0h7x/1939_3_T_SLENDER_MAXIMA_DOS_VERTICALES.jpg

 

Yet another "Long" Major. Note the narrower cap band.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

...Supplying more correct labels to Majors and Slender Maximas:

 

  On 2/11/2014 at 11:06 AM, Lazard 20 said:

 

http://s7.postimg.org/ppu1elnmj/1940_4_T_azure_slender_maxima_2_VERTICALES.jpg

 

That's a "Long" Major. Note the narrower cap band.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

  On 2/11/2014 at 10:24 AM, Lazard 20 said:

The names and proportions of vacs listed at the bottom are taken from original catalogs Parker (names in brackets are only personal notes).

 

Thus we see that while this model of 135 mm in length and 13.5 mm. diameter cap from its appearance was called:

 

1937 MAXIMA

1938 MAXIMA

1939 SLENDER MAXIMA

1940 SLENDER MAXIMA

 

1941 From here, with the apparition of "51" Parker just talking about Maxima and without distinction between them, as you can see too in this Parker ads collection:

 

Parker ads

 

We know that this Parker vac of 135 mm long and 13,5 mm cap band was called Maxima as first or last name, but always Maxima and ever Major and as we shall see, the two Maximas of 135 mm length -regardless of the diameter- had a different band to the Major of 127 mm.

 

Parker therefore easily distinguish the Maxima in length and cap band, It's easy since the chevron band "closed" is imposed; Maxima -135 mm and "two verticals" closing the engraving zone chevron band - vs Major -127 mm and "one vertical" closing the engraving zone chevron band-.

 

We can also do it without inventing anything: 135 mm. and "two verticals" are Maxima in opposition to Major of 127 mm and only "one vertical".

 

Maxima, not Major, not "Long Major" or neither true nor false fountain pen. Then we could continue, as we do with other models, with distinctions such as double or single jewel, the year of manufacture or metal or plastic vac system, or nib/feed, for example, but Maxima is that, a Maxima

 

There's your mistake.

 

For a few years, Parker had two Vacumatics that were the same length and diameter. Your error is that you don't realize there were two different models; you mistakenly assume that all Vacumatics from those years that are the same length and girth are the same model, even if they have different-width cap bands and different-sized nibs. But that's incorrect.

 

In reality, the ~135mm pen with the narrower cap band and the smaller nib was the Major (collectors call these "Long Majors"). The ~135mm pen with the wider cap band and the larger nib was called the Slender Maxima.

 

By your reasoning, Majors from late 1938 through 1942 must be 127mm long. Majors are very common models -- much more common than Slender Maximas. Therefore, you should be easily able to post many, many examples of such 127mm Majors from those years. Let's see them.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

  On 2/12/2014 at 3:49 AM, kirchh said:

 

There's your mistake.

 

In reality, the ~135mm pen with the narrower cap band and the smaller nib was the Major (collectors call these "Long Majors"). The ~135mm pen with the wider cap band and the larger nib was called the Slender Maxima.

 

 

Preciselly there's your mistake.

 

B´cause from one point of the years ´40 Maximas -both 15 mm and those of 13, 5 mm in diameter- have not wider cap band.* To ignore this is what leads you to the error.

 

 

*And Slender change nib although, as I have indicated, Maximas and Majors continue to distinguish the "vertical double" or "vertical simple" in the chevron band.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

  On 2/12/2014 at 3:49 AM, kirchh said:

By your reasoning, Majors from late 1938 through 1942 must be 127mm long. Majors are very common models -- much more common than Slender Maximas. Therefore, you should be easily able to post many, many examples of such 127mm Majors from those years. Let's see them.

 

--Daniel

 

Examples of Major ~127 mm. in total length and 58 mm in cap with only one vertical in chevron band the band are very common and usual and you can have them on thousands of images.

Precisely the background for years consist in that 135 mm. long were called Slender Maxima or Maxima -this is not debatable is reflected as well in catalogs- is contrary to that in successive years this models 135 mm "will go down its class."

 

I might consider your point of view but the fact that we know it was called Maxima all 135 mm, both 15 mm in diameter as 13.5 mm, occupy the chevron band "vertical double", something that not have the Majors 127 mm, confirms that belong of ~135 mm are the same category Maxima.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

  On 2/12/2014 at 3:10 AM, kirchh said:

 

You are mixing two different models of pens and calling both Maxima.

 

Incorrect. Preciselly, you are mixing two different models of pens and calling both Major. (Maxima "||" cap band. Major only "|" cap band).

 

You do not bring Parker document evidence of Major with 135 m. and less with "||" in the chevron band, not one.

 

In contrast, there are countless Parker documents that speak of Maxima, with different widths, of 135 mm. and I am demonstrating that they, Maxima 15 mm diameter and Maxima of 13,5 mm diameter, in the "ringed vacumatic dark ages" share the same band with "||" whereas Major only have one.

 

The band and the length is what make the difference.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

  On 2/12/2014 at 3:17 AM, kirchh said:

 

I'll help straighten this out by labeling these pens correctly.

 

That's a Major (called a "Long Major" by collectors, to distinguish it from the shorter versions that preceded and followed it). Notice the larrower cap band.

 

 

That's a Major (collector term="Long Major" per above). Note the narrower cap band.

 

--Daniel

 

Incorrect and bold. ~ (Maxima 135 mm total length, 61 mm cap length and "||" band vs Major 127 mm total length, 58 mm cap length and only "|")

 

BRIEF SUMMARY.

 

In favor of your arguments:

 

Mere words insistence on the wrong majority opinion blinding eyes to those vacs that shares length and cap band, so you, and majority opinion, did not have answer these questions:

.

Why would like Parker to manufacture a "Long Major" longer and sell at the lowest prices $8.75?

Why Parker mounted in this fountain pen "Long Major" the band "||" of the Maxima?

Really you think that Parket not called this "Long Major" Maxima and sold them at $10.00?

 

In favor of my arguments:

 

You do not have a single reference that Parker has one Major with 135 mm.

You do not have any references that have 127 mm Major with "||" in the chevron cap band.

 

We have different catalogs Parker, with vacumatic with 135 mm, are called Maxima and not Major.

We have many vacumatic with 135 m and share "| |".

Edited February 12, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

  On 2/12/2014 at 7:24 AM, Lazard 20 said:

 

Preciselly there's your mistake.

 

B´cause from one point of the years ´40 Maximas -both 15 mm and those of 13, 5 mm in diameter- have not wider cap band.* To ignore this is what leads you to the error.

 

 

*And Slender change nib although, as I have indicated, Maximas and Majors continue to distinguish the "vertical double" or "vertical simple" in the chevron band.

 

You are confusing your claims with evidence.

 

You claim now that "from one point," the Slender Maxima gets the same narrower cap band that the Major has. But you do not provide any evidence for this claim. Do you have a catalog that shows the Slender Maxima with a cap band the same width as that of the Major?

 

You claim now that the Slender Maxima also gets the Major-sized nib at some point, but you do not provide any evidence for this claim. Do you have a catalog that shows the Slender Maxima with this smaller nib? Do you have a repair parts price list that contains two different sized replacement nibs for Slender Maximas, depending on the year?

 

You claim that the Major from late 1938 through 1942 is ~127mm, but you haven't posted a single picture of such a pen, even though Majors are very common Vacumatics. Therefore, you do not provide any evidence for this claim, upon which your entire claim rests.

 

If the Slender Maxima got a narrower cap band and smaller nib at some point in the 1940s, what model are the Vacumatics that are ~135mm long and have the Major-width cap band and the Major nib from before this supposed change? (Here's a hint: They're Majors -- what collectors call "Long Majors.")

 

You can support your entire claim very simply, but despite repeated requests, and ample opportunity, you have failed to do so. All you have to do is post a set of pictures of Majors from late-1938 through 1942, showing that they are ~127mm, as you claim.

 

Where are these images?

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

  On 2/12/2014 at 7:38 AM, Lazard 20 said:

 

Examples of Major ~127 mm. in total length and 58 mm in cap with only one vertical in chevron band the band are very common and usual and you can have them on thousands of images.

 

Yet, you cannot supply pictures of these late-1938-1942 Majors that are ~127mm in length.

 

Why not?

 

  Quote

 

Precisely the background for years consist in that 135 mm. long were called Slender Maxima or Maxima -this is not debatable is reflected as well in catalogs- is contrary to that in successive years this models 135 mm "will go down its class."

 

 

Incorrect. It is debatable. For several years, there are two different models of Vacumatic that are ~135mm long and slender: One model has a narrower cap band and smaller nib, and the other has a wider cap band and larger nib. You claim that both these models, which were made at the same time for several years, are the same pen. But you are wrong. The pen with the narrower cap band and the smaller nib is the Major (so-called "Long Major"). The pen with the wider cap band and larger nib is the Slender Maxima. For some reason, you keep ignoring the fact that these two different models exist. Why is that?

 

  Quote

 

I might consider your point of view but the fact that we know it was called Maxima all 135 mm, both 15 mm in diameter as 13.5 mm, occupy the chevron band "vertical double", something that not have the Majors 127 mm, confirms that belong of ~135 mm are the same category Maxima.

 

Incorrect. "We" do not know that; you merely claim that. To the contrary, we know that there are two different models of ~135mm long slender Vacumatic found starting late-1938 for a few years. One model has a narrower cap band and smaller nib, and the other has a wider cap band and larger nib. You do not dispute this. You claim that these two different models, which were made at the same time for several years, are the same model. But you are wrong. The pen with the narrower cap band and the smaller nib is the Major (so-called "Long Major"). The pen with the wider cap band and larger nib is the Slender Maxima. For some reason, you keep ignoring the fact that these two different models exist. Why do you ignore this fact?

 

According to you, there are thousands of images of ~127mm Majors from late-1938 through 1942. Yet you haven't posted a single one.

 

Why not?

 

Such pens should be extremely common; many, many times more common than Slender Maximas. You collect Vacumatics, so you should have dozens, if not hundreds of them. Why don't you take them all out and take one big photo of all of these ~127mm-long Majors from late 1938 through 1942? Better yet, take some side-by-side photos of a ~127mm Major and a Slender Maxima with the narrow cap band from the same year for 1939, 1940, 1941...

 

That should be simple for you.

 

--Daniel

Edited February 12, 2014 by kirchh

[kirchh]

  On 2/12/2014 at 8:03 AM, Lazard 20 said:

 

Incorrect. Preciselly, you are mixing two different models of pens and calling both Major. (Maxima "||" cap band. Major only "|" cap band).

 

You do not bring Parker document evidence of Major with 135 m. and less with "||" in the chevron band, not one.

 

In contrast, there are countless Parker documents that speak of Maxima, with different widths, of 135 mm. and I am demonstrating that they, Maxima 15 mm diameter and Maxima of 13,5 mm diameter, in the "ringed vacumatic dark ages" share the same band with "||" whereas Major only have one.

 

The band and the length is what make the difference.

 

You make a logical error here:

 

"There are countless Parker documents that speak of Maxima, with different widths, of 135mm."

 

Assuming arguendo that this is true, it is irrelevant; you are confusing implication with equivalence. You seem to think that if all Maximas are 135mm, therefore all 135mm-long pens are Maximas. This is a very basic logical mistake; it's like saying that all squares have four sides; therefore, all shapes with four sides are squares.

 

You claim that there are thousands of pictures of the very common ~127mm-long Major Vacumatic from late-1938 through 1942.

 

Why can't you post these pictures?

 

You claim that from late-1938 through the end of the run of the Slender Maxima, the only feature that distinguishes the Slender Maxima from the Major is the length, with the Slender Maxima at ~135mm and the Major at ~127mm. Yet, you cannot post even a single picture of a Slender Maxima with a narrow cap band next to a ~127mm Major from the same time.

 

Why not?

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

  On 2/12/2014 at 12:58 PM, Lazard 20 said:

 

Incorrect and bold. ~ (Maxima 135 mm total length, 61 mm cap length and "||" band vs Major 127 mm total length, 58 mm cap length and only "|")

 

 

Logical error. You are begging the question. That is, you are using your conclusion to try to prove your conclusion. You are assuming what you are trying to prove in order to make your case. I hope the fault here is clear.

 

You claim that the Major from late-1938 through the early 1940s is 127mm long, and has the same-width cap band and the same nib as the Slender Maxima. You claim there are thousands of photos showing such pens from this time period. Yet, you cannot offer even a single example.

 

Why?

 

  Quote

 

BRIEF SUMMARY.

 

In favor of your arguments:

 

Mere words insistence on the wrong majority opinion blinding eyes to those vacs that shares length and cap band, so you, and majority opinion, did not have answer these questions:

.

Why would like Parker to manufacture a "Long Major" longer and sell at the lowest prices $8.75?

 

If you mean, why did Parker make the Major model eight millimeters longer? I don't know. Perhaps it reduced manufacturing costs because they could share parts between models. Perhaps they felt the pen would sell better if it were longer. Many pen models underwent changes over the years; I hope that is not a surprise to you.

 

Why would you not be able to post pictures of 127mm Majors from late-1938 through 1942?

 

Why would you not be able to post pictures showing a 127mm Major next to a Slender Maxima with the same-width cap band from late-1938 through the end of the run of the Slender Maxima?

 

  Quote

Why Parker mounted in this fountain pen "Long Major" the band "||" of the Maxima?

 

 

Here's that "begging the question" logical fallacy. You are assuming what you are trying to prove.

 

You have provided no evidence whatsoever that the "||" band designates a Maxima model. None whatsoever.

 

Again, you have mixed up implication with equivalence. Just because Maximas are found with a "||" band, it does not mean that therefore all pens with a "||" band are Maximas. Just because all squares have four sides, it does not follow that all shapes with four sides are squares.

 

  Quote

 

 

Really you think that Parket not called this "Long Major" Maxima and sold them at $10.00?

 

I think that the late-1938-1942ish slender Blue Diamond Vacumatic that is 135mm long, having the Major-width cap band and the Major-sized nib was called the Major and sold for $8.75.

 

I think that during the same time period (until the model was discontinued), the slender Blue Diamond Vacumatic that is 135mm long, having the wider cap band and larger nib, was called the Slender Maxima and sold for $10.00

 

Really.

 

Now, do you really think that there are thousands of pictures of 127mm-long Majors from late-1938-1942?

 

Where are they?

 

You must have many of these pens. Please post pictures of several of them, preferably side-by-side with Slender Maximas from the same date having the narrower cap band and smaller nib.

 

  Quote

 

 

In favor of my arguments:

 

You do not have a single reference that Parker has one Major with 135 mm.

You do not have any references that have 127 mm Major with "||" in the chevron cap band.

 

We have different catalogs Parker, with vacumatic with 135 mm, are called Maxima and not Major.

We have many vacumatic with 135 m and share "| |".

 

Multiple logical errors here. I've been over these principles already.

 

I'll also point out that in all the catalog pictures you have provided through 1941, the Slender Maxima has a wider cap band than does the Major. Therefore, by your reasoning, any slender Vacumatic from any of those years that does not have the wider cap band cannot be a Slender Maxima. Right?

 

This is very simple. You claim that the Major from late-1938 through 1942 was 127mm long. Your entire case rests on this claim. All you need to do to support this claim is to produce evidence of all these extremely common pens.

 

But you can't.

 

--Daniel

Edited February 12, 2014 by kirchh

[Lazard 20]

  On 2/12/2014 at 1:04 PM, kirchh said:

 

You are confusing your claims with evidence.

 

You claim now that "from one point,"...

 

You claim now...

You can support your entire claim very simply, but despite repeated requests, and ample opportunity, you have failed to do so. All you have to do is post a set of pictures of Majors from

 

Here ( to give an example of someone who does not sympathize with me) http://www.(bleep).com/websitesales/newpens.htm you can see vacs years ´40 ~127 mm. and "|" and ~135 with "||".

 

Further you can see many more on ebay f.e. with 127 mm. and "|"chevron band. However, for your convenience, tomorrow I'll upload also the 6/8 Major ´40 of my collection.

 

On the other hand you talk "now" or new arguments. Now? A you sure?

 

Two months ago in this post. Posted 19 December 2013 - 20:59 by Lazard

 

"In general, Slender Maxima of the '40s as the present one do not have broad band nor nib Maxima nor feed channel width "W" engraved. You can verify that your Slender Maxima has "||" two vertical bars limiting the band engraving area -only 1 in the Major´s normally and 2 in the Maxima´s as my personal contribution to Pendom-."

 

Are you the one who is confused. Please review the fountain pen post object and my comments. We're talking about a fountain pen of "vacs ringed dark years " its to say, the 40s, in this particular case 1945, so that is out and not suitable your comments about '30s bands -that is another matter-.

 

I thought that you introduce ´30 bands as to confuse readers to lack of other arguments. Now I see that you do not know what we're talking about.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Lazard 20