Montblanc 146 Barrel Discoloured

[newlife]

Hello everybody!

 

I experienced something strange with my new vintage MB 146 from the first half of the 60's decade. Bought in absolutely fine condition, I decided to buy fountainbel's pliers to remove the piston just in case there was something wrong inside, corrosion or whatever. Well, the piston was in perfect state as well as the semiflex nib, feed (not the flat first type, but the second follow-up one), so it should be dated correctly.

 

Of course I brush-cleaned the barrel inside, put the pen together, did some writing over the weekend with its wonderful OB nib and was happy, finally having completed my 142/144/146 pens from the celluloid aera.

 

Taking a look at the pen today I was shocked. The piston thread was visible through the shaft! White metal shining through the barrel! Besides, I noticed some strange spot right below the piston thread, looking like this:

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img338/9964/img0083ed.jpg

 

Sorry for the photo, there is NO crack in the barrel, it was my camera flash making reflections. Now what worries me is: You see the spot from outside, like something was bleached. No light shining through from the inside though! My masters-everything-buddy here, fountainbel, said, that kind of discolouration was normal with these pens, I could use some black paint. I'm not sure if he's totally right. I have blackened the shine-through thread a little with a CD marker, but as I said above, the bleached looking spot is not affected. Painting inside does not alter the outside! It almost seems to me the barrel consists of two layers and the blackening has somehow disappeared between them.

 

Now all I did was flushing the barrel with warm water and some dish cleaner to remove ink inside, nothing else. And believe me, my eyes are wide open with precious pens like this one while servicing or flushing! Eagleeyed! The pen was absolutely ok when ready! No spots or whatsoever! Having used silicon oil to make the piston run more softly I even was worried that some oil might have caused this misery, but by dismounting the pen today I saw, that not a single drop hat touched the barrel or the thread. I use to be very carful with icons like this one, no mistake by me!

 

Can water or dish soap harm a 146 like that after some time? Could it be that this maybe two-layered barrel can be soaked with black colour of whatever sort of by capillar effect?

 

I'm completely out of creative ideas right now. Maybe you can help me?

 

Klaus

[karmakoda]

Hi Klaus

Do you have any other photos of your pen? You say it is an early '60s pen, but if celluloid, is it not a '50s pen?

My 146G has a similar issue at the area near the piston threads, as do some of my other vintage Montblanc pens. My understanding is that the celluloid was originally clear, but "ambers" with age, becoming a warm, reddish, honey colour. The black coating applied to the internal part of the barrel gradually wears away with piston use.

Unscrewing the piston mechanism, and re-installing it may have removed,over time, the black coating from the threads on your pen, making them partially visible.

Only one of my photos shows an "amber" coloured ring visible just below the gold ring of the piston mechanism on my 146G. I don't find the appearance disturbing, and have not tried to re-blacken it.

Follow all recommendations from Francis (fountainbel) and continue to be cautious with materials used to clean or colour the celluloid. I don't believe the "blemish" on your pen is due to your actions, or cleaning. I think it is a common characteristic of '50s (and earlier) Montblanc celluloid pens.

Best Regards

Greg

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz218/Valaccar/P1020336.jpg

[newlife]

Hello Greg!

 

Thanks for your reply! Well of course everybody here would date this pen as a 50's one, it has the typical signs like a 146 engraving on the filler knob, the bicoloured nib nearly without ornaments, the telescope mechanism and so on. But in the MB section there is a sticky about dating 149s, showing the different feeds through the years, and my feed is definitely not the flat 50's one, but the follow-up, which the thread dates from the mid sixties on. So I decided to declare it as a sixties pen. It looks exactly like your pen on the photo. Maybe one could call it a transitional 146, I don't know.

 

Of course my four years experience since collecting pens can't match that of Francis, but if it were as he says that MB painted the inside of the barrels black there should be light shining through when lighted from the inside, which is not the case. That does not seem logical to me, and I made up this thread to hear some more opinions. No, please don't beat me up, Francis! Without your consulting many of my defect pens would not have been brought back to life!

 

So I wonder if anybody else has something to contribute . . . :hmm1:

 

Kind regards!

 

Klaus

[karmakoda]

Hello Klaus

Just to follow your comment about light shining through the barrel material, when lit from within.

Forgive me, if I am mistaken, but my understanding is that this is a property of Montblanc resin pens, not characteristic of celluloid models. I tested this with my resin 146s, my 146G, and 144G, using a simple incandescent flashlight, and 2 powerful "tactical" flashlights. The resin pens glowed a deep, wine, red, especially at the cap threads. The celluloid pens only produced an olive amber glow around the barrel, even under the strongest light. The same colour is visible in your photograph. Perhaps a black thread sealant (if one exists), applied to the piston mechanism threads would make the blemish disappear.

I'm wondering if your 146 feed looks like the one on my pen.

Kind Regards

Greg

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz218/Valaccar/P1020320.jpg

[fountainpende]

Hi,

 

there are some mistakes in this posting, therefore some comments from me.

 

1. Celluloid is painted black from the outside. Only the stripes in the ink window are painted from the inside. Thus, these pens consist of a translucent barrel made of celluloid, a black celluloid layer outside (80% of the barrel) and a inner black celluloid layer (only the ink window).

 

2. You will very often find such discolorations on pens ... either the owner polished it too much or the black celluloid was rubbed of over time by using the pen.

 

3. Never ever use "some" black paint on these pens! The chemicals in the paint will destroy them. You need liquid black celluloid ... and you need some experience on how to use it.

 

I would suggest sending the pen to maxpens.de (Horst) as he knows how to repair such pens.

 

Best regards

Michael

Edited February 5, 2013 by fountainpende

[karmakoda]

Well, I suppose it's live and learn, once again, for me. :hmm1:

My, apparently erroneous, understanding was that the barrels of the celluloid pens were made of a clear celluloid, to facilitate the production of the ink window, and coated black from within.

Note that the cap, section and piston knob are made of black celluloid, where transparency is not necessary.

I have read that the pens can be "re-dipped" to paint them black from the outside, but always wondered how this is done without obscuring the ink window, or leaving a visible edge to the coating.

Really looking forward to hearing how the process works.

Many Thanks

Greg

[fountainpende]

Hi Greg,

 

yes, cap and piston know are made of solid black celluloid. Transparent celluloid is necessary for the ink window.

 

But the question was: is it painted from the inside or the outside. And as stated above, the ink window is painted from the inside while other 80% of the barrel are painted from the outside.

 

The Edge:

there is no magic about this.

Depending on the condition of the pen, you will see an edge on the barrel. See the photo below (its a 139).

 

However, if you look at a pen that has been used intensively in the past, you might not see the edge that easily, but you are likely to feel it. Just use a fingernail ...

 

Just as another explanation, find attached some illustrations ... if you would just paint the inside of a pen, then the pen should always look "yellowish" as celluloid is (was) yellow. Only if you apply the material from the outside, you will be able to avoid such effect.

 

Another comment: Celluloid should be yellow. If you see red celluloid then the material was discoloured by the ink ... so always look for a yellow ink window. A red ink window means a much lower value.

 

 

... and .. if someone still believes that his pen was painted black from the inside ... just polish your pen for a while ... you will get a demonstrator pen

Edited February 5, 2013 by fountainpende

[karmakoda]

Thank You Michael

Very interesting and informative reply.

It must be an amazing paint, or coating, that was applied, perhaps heat bonded.

Looking at all my old MBs in a different light now, it is tempting to have them re-coated.

Cheers

Greg

[pavoni]

:clap1: Gosh!

 

As someone with a couple of celluloid pens, I have been following this thread with facination. Thank you very much Michael for your valued directions (as always ) and thank you Greg for helping in the clarifications. A valuable thread for owners of vintage MB pens. :clap1:

 

Pavoni.

[fountainpende]

Hi Greg,

 

no, that's not an amazing paint ... its just liquid celluloid ... essentially, you put celluloid on celluloid

 

The problem is ... you can easily destroy your pens when not properly applying the paint. Some years ago I tried to restore some of my pens ... and ended up destroying 6 masterpiece pens.

Later, I tested on some other pens but always with a non satisfactory result.

 

I then decided not to do such repairwork again ... I ask Horst to do such things

 

Best regards

Michael

Edited February 5, 2013 by fountainpende

[karmakoda]

:clap1: Gosh!

 

As someone with a couple of celluloid pens, I have been following this thread with facination. Thank you very much Michael for your valued directions (as always ) and thank you Greg for helping in the clarifications. A valuable thread for owners of vintage MB pens. :clap1:

 

Pavoni.

Yes Pavoni (a couple of celluloid pens??? :ltcapd: ) I am surprised too, because, as you know, we have been down this discussion road exhaustively in the past.

I am grateful for Michael's patient, and generous, sharing of information.

The application of liquid, black, celluloid to the barrel exterior would be a fascinating process to see, but I will not be trying it myself.

Michael's experience should be ample warning.

Thank you Klaus, for generating this topic, and hats off to Michael.

Best Regards

Greg

[fountainpende]

Dear Greg,

 

no, hmm ... no my comment was nothing special... nothing really valuable. I wouldn't consider this information as "new"... anybody that polished his/her pens too much will see that the paint is on the outside.

 

But I'm happy that my comments were perceived to be valuable ... thank you :embarrassed_smile:

Edited February 5, 2013 by fountainpende

[newlife]

Well, it's nice to notice such an interest for this subject! Now let's see.

 

@Greg: Here's a photo of my feed, as I said it must be the next one after your flat feed, according to the MB 149 identification sticky here.

 

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/5369/img0093ed.jpg

 

 

@ Michael: Being the webmaster of our highly appreciated german homepage for MB pens your knowledge is somehow natural and deep as should be. Ich wuerde ja lieber in deutsch antworten, aber es lesen zu viele Interessenten mit. Pardon me, folks, I just told Michael I'd rather write in german since he's german too, but since many of you are showing great interest in my thread I have no choice than sticking to english . . .

 

Your infos are great, I never knew MB pens were coated outside, I always believed that celluloid could be coloured with pigments before forming parts out of it. But that - in case of the 14x pens - would have required a two-part-barrel if a transparent ink window was wanted. Well, you never stop learning. I took your advice and sent email to Horst Max Schrage, looking forward to his reply.

 

But what I still don't understand: The pen looked perfect when I received it, polishing never came to my mind because it almost looked brandnew, no scratches or wear on the outside, like the owner had hardly used it. Neither threads nor that spot were visible! The only thing I really applied form the outside was water, dish soap and a little heat from my hairdryer, not even hot enough to hurt myself. It's a mystery to me what happened. Hopefully Horst will bring some light into this darkness!?

 

Anyway, thanks to all of you for being interested and communicative! I'll keep you informed what's going on.

 

Regards, Klaus

[pavoni]

Hi Klaus,

 

For what it is worth, my 1950s 149, 144, 142, and 244 all have the same feed you have shown, whilst my 1950s MB 146, 246 and both my 242 standard and 242 Demonstrator have the same type of feed as Greg has shown.

 

Pavoni.

[newlife]

Hello Pavoni!

 

Well, I believe that this graphic is right concerning the dating of our pens:

 

My link

 

What do we learn by that graphic? Flat feed pens ran out towards the end of the 50's, followed by a round feed, so a 50's pen does not necessarily have a flat feed!

 

Klaus

[jar]

Hello Pavoni!

 

Well, I believe that this graphic is right concerning the dating of our pens:

 

My link

 

What do we learn by that graphic? Flat feed pens ran out towards the end of the 50's, followed by a round feed, so a 50's pen does not necessarily have a flat feed!

 

Klaus

 

And remember that there were at least two flat feeds, the one like Greg showed which is commonly called the "ski slope" and the even earlier one without the grooves.

 

http://www.fototime.com/740821E3ABAC84E/medium800.jpg

[pavoni]

Hello Pavoni!

 

Well, I believe that this graphic is right concerning the dating of our pens:

 

My link

 

What do we learn by that graphic? Flat feed pens ran out towards the end of the 50's, followed by a round feed, so a 50's pen does not necessarily have a flat feed!

 

Klaus

 

Yep, that is the same four-component part dating chart most of us have been using for some time. So, a flat feed does not necessarily have a 50's pen!

 

Looking forward to hearing of the results of Max's work on your pen,. Thanks for sharing.

 

Pavoni.

[CS388]

 

...edit...

 

 

But what I still don't understand: The pen looked perfect when I received it, polishing never came to my mind because it almost looked brandnew, no scratches or wear on the outside, like the owner had hardly used it. Neither threads nor that spot were visible! The only thing I really applied form the outside was water, dish soap and a little heat from my hairdryer, not even hot enough to hurt myself. It's a mystery to me what happened. Hopefully Horst will bring some light into this darkness!?

 

 

 

Hello Klaus.

Sudden appearance is a mystery.

Surely, it must have been the heat?

Can you feel any edge?

Don't quite get the scale from your photo, is it fingerprint size?

 

I've only used heat on old celluloid once. (Not MB)

Total disaster.

 

What an excellent thread. I'd had no idea about the details of the process. Fascinating!

Many thanks to all.

 

And good luck.

[CS388]

Hello Klaus

Just to follow your comment about light shining through the barrel material, when lit from within.

Forgive me, if I am mistaken, but my understanding is that this is a property of Montblanc resin pens, not characteristic of celluloid models. I tested this with my resin 146s, my 146G, and 144G, using a simple incandescent flashlight, and 2 powerful "tactical" flashlights. The resin pens glowed a deep, wine, red, especially at the cap threads. The celluloid pens only produced an olive amber glow around the barrel, even under the strongest light. The same colour is visible in your photograph. Perhaps a black thread sealant (if one exists), applied to the piston mechanism threads would make the blemish disappear.

I'm wondering if your 146 feed looks like the one on my pen.

Kind Regards

Greg

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz218/Valaccar/P1020320.jpg

 

That's superb, Greg.

 

These ski-slopes are my favourite Meisterstuck feeds.

 

Thanks.

 

Klaus, I had the same style feed as yours on a 254, which was sold to me as a late 1950s pen.

[newlife]

@ CS388

 

No edges at all, the surface is smooth as ever. Dimensions of the spot are about 5 by 8 mm.

 

Klaus