Cheap laser printer paper for toner transfer?

[nimrod]

This will sound like a strange request, and it's not really related to fountain pens, but people here seem to know something about paper and I'm not sure who else to ask. It is actually calligraphy-related (read on).

 

I often use a process by which I print a design on a laser printer, then use heat to transfer the toner off of the paper onto another surface. I actually use this technique for carving Chinese seals (called 篆刻 - "zhuan4 ke4" in Chinese, which make imprints like the one in my avatar picture) but others also use the same process to etch circuit boards.

 

Basically the characteristics I need are:

• Toner just barely bonds to the paper (no toner bonding agents in the paper, etc)
• Toner still bonds well enough that white spots don't occur on black parts of the image
• Paper is light and easily dissolves in water
• Paper doesn't damage or contaminate the photoeletric drum in the printer cartridge

The process works something like this:

1. Print a design on a laser printer at actual size
2. Place the printout against the very smooth flat surface you want to transfer the toner onto (like a seal stone sanded flat and smooth, or a circuit board)
3. Use an iron or some other source of heat and pressure to heat and apply pressure to the paper against the target surface
4. Keep applying heat/pressure for some period of time, then remove the iron or whatever
5. "Wash" or immerse the target item and the paper, without removing the paper, in warm water. Let it soak a bit and slowly rub the paper away
6. If everything goes well your left with the toner forming a mirror image of what was on the paper transfered to the target surface.

So ideally I want the toner to stick to the target surface more strongly than it sticks to the paper, and I want the paper to dissolve and wash away as easily as possible so that it doesn't pull any toner off of the target surface when it's removed.

 

I was thinking that "ink jet" paper probably doesn't have any toner bonding agents, so I might try a very lightweight "ink jet" paper, but office supply stores don't usually sell paper lighter than 20#. I know that lighter laser/copy paper exists because a former employer used to buy really thin laser printer paper to save on per-sheet cost and tree waste.

 

Companies do sell special heat transfer paper, but it's very expensive and I get decent results even just using less-than-ideal "good" laser printer paper which probably does have toner bonding agents in it.

 

Any ideas on what I might try next and where I can get it?

Edited October 6, 2007 by nimrod

[hunter186]

This is something that some people do to etch circuit boards as well. As I understand it, people use inkjet photo paper in a laser printer, then use an iron to transfer the image. See this page for an example.

[captnemo]

What you are asking for specifically is not so easy. Laser toner is finely powdered PVC (plastic) with carbon mixed in, which is then melted into the paper under high heat and pressure by the fuser roller. So there's no issue of the PVC not bonding. It WILL bond.

 

But as mentioned by Hunter186, there are ways to use a laser printer to make masks for etching printed circuit boards. There are also heat transfer sheets that by using a clothes iron you can retransfer most of the toner to a t-shirt or whatever.

 

In addition there are special toners (transfer toners) one can get which contain a dye that can be used to heat transfer color to polyester fabrics.

 

You can also modify the printer to bypass the fuser. (I have done this) You'll get a sheet of paper with all your nice neat printing only unfused. It's just sitting there on top of the paper. You have to keep the sheet of paper flat and away from any air movement or the toner will blow away but you could conceivably get the toner transferred to another object, maybe, somehow.

 

I don't know if any of that helps.

[Samovar]

Could you use stencil paper used for tattoo?

Something like this: http://www.superiortattoo.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=C6A

 

Samovar

[nimrod]

This is something that some people do to etch circuit boards as well. As I understand it, people use inkjet photo paper in a laser printer, then use an iron to transfer the image. See this page for an example.

 

I've read about that but the process that I've read about for seperating the toner from the glossy paper sounded worse than what I currenty find myself doing with regular paper, so I wasn't sure that glossy inkjet photo paper would be any improvement. I recently acquired a free sample pack of glossy premium inkjet photo paper though so I think I'll give it a try. I'm just not sure if the small paper size will work properly in my laser printer....

 

[captnemo]

This is something that some people do to etch circuit boards as well. As I understand it, people use inkjet photo paper in a laser printer, then use an iron to transfer the image. See this page for an example.

 

I've read about that but the process that I've read about for seperating the toner from the glossy paper sounded worse than what I currenty find myself doing with regular paper, so I wasn't sure that glossy inkjet photo paper would be any improvement. I recently acquired a free sample pack of glossy premium inkjet photo paper though so I think I'll give it a try. I'm just not sure if the small paper size will work properly in my laser printer....

 

 

Perhaps I should ask a question here. After transferring the toner (which is black colored PVC plastic) to your seal stone, then what? Do you use the toner as an etch resist and then etch the stone in an acid, or do you manually carve around the toner, or what? I might have more ideas if I knew what your final destination was.

[nimrod]

What you are asking for specifically is not so easy. Laser toner is finely powdered PVC (plastic) with carbon mixed in, which is then melted into the paper under high heat and pressure by the fuser roller. So there's no issue of the PVC not bonding. It WILL bond.

Ok, I knew it was plastic powder of some sort but didn't know any details beyond that.

 

 

But as mentioned by Hunter186, there are ways to use a laser printer to make masks for etching printed circuit boards. There are also heat transfer sheets that by using a clothes iron you can retransfer most of the toner to a t-shirt or whatever.

 

In addition there are special toners (transfer toners) one can get which contain a dye that can be used to heat transfer color to polyester fabrics.

 

You can also modify the printer to bypass the fuser. (I have done this) You'll get a sheet of paper with all your nice neat printing only unfused. It's just sitting there on top of the paper. You have to keep the sheet of paper flat and away from any air movement or the toner will blow away but you could conceivably get the toner transferred to another object, maybe, somehow.

 

Thanks for the ideas. The expensive transfer papers were what I was hoping to avoid. I'm not sure if the T-Shirt or Tattoo papers are any cheaper than the ones made specifically for circuit boards (and by that I mean the special "made for circuit boards" paper not the glossy photo paper) which are probably closest to what I'd want.

 

Bypassing the fuser might be worth a try (depending on how much damage I have to do to the printer to do this) but I wonder if the process of applying heat manually would just end up fusing the toner to the paper anyway. I've experienced unfused toner before when removing jammed paper from printers so I know what you're talking about with it getting blown away or smeared.

 

I've also thought about trying stuff like applying wax to a normal sheet of paper to keep the toner from bonding properly to the paper but I'm afraid that I'll contaminate the photoelectric drum, fuser, or other rollers in the printer with the wax. I can't really think of any substances that I could "treat" paper with to impair toner bonding that wouldn't run a significant risk of contaminating or damaging parts of the printer.

 

In any case I'm mostly OK with what I'm currently doing. Since my "etching" is done manually I don't need to worry about minor imperfections in the transferred image, but I'm still trying to come up with ways of improving the process without resorting to the expensive application-specific transfer paper.

[captnemo]

In any case I'm mostly OK with what I'm currently doing. Since my "etching" is done manually I don't need to worry about minor imperfections in the transferred image, but I'm still trying to come up with ways of improving the process without resorting to the expensive application-specific transfer paper.

 

Well you didn't quite answer my question but from the above sentence it sounds like you carve manually around the markings with a Dremel or something.

 

If that's the case, and if the object you are working with is nice and flat, then I would consider ditching the laser printer completely and use an ink jet printer designed to print onto objects other than paper. There are lots of these used in industry to print on surfaces and fabrics, flatbeds for plotting on large sheets of paper, etc.

 

The cheapest version of this is found in an ink jet designed to print onto printable CDs and DVDs that you can get at Best Buy for $70. You might find one you can modify to push one of your stones through. Searching on the Internet you might find somebody who has already done this and published the method.

 

The only requirement is that the surface is flat. The ink will probably work fine as is but if the surface is lousy for ink, there is a resin you can paint on and let try that accepts ink jet ink.

 

I also wonder why you don't just glue the printed paper from the laser directly onto the stone, say with white glue, then grind right through the paper, and when done wash the "stencil" off with soap and water.

[nimrod]

Well you didn't quite answer my question but from the above sentence it sounds like you carve manually around the markings with a Dremel or something.

 

Well, not exactly. I use traditional tools which are pretty much identical to a couple of the standard tools used for woodcarving. This page has a small image showing the process:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/8833/seal-how.html

 

This page contains more photos of the stones used:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/8833/seal.html

 

This page is in Chinese but has more photos of the tools used:

http://www.mebag.com/tool/2.htm

 

 

If that's the case, and if the object you are working with is nice and flat, then I would consider ditching the laser printer completely and use an ink jet printer designed to print onto objects other than paper. There are lots of these used in industry to print on surfaces and fabrics, flatbeds for plotting on large sheets of paper, etc.

 

The cheapest version of this is found in an ink jet designed to print onto printable CDs and DVDs that you can get at Best Buy for $70. You might find one you can modify to push one of your stones through. Searching on the Internet you might find somebody who has already done this and published the method.

 

The only requirement is that the surface is flat. The ink will probably work fine as is but if the surface is lousy for ink, there is a resin you can paint on and let try that accepts ink jet ink.

 

That's an interesting idea actually. I knew about CD printers and had even seen instructions on some web page for how to modify a cheap $20 ink jet printer to print on a CD, but the stones I'm dealing with are usually a few inches "thick" (tall really, but thick relative to the printing surface). The stones are often not regular rectangular prisms either (they may be rounded or totally irregular) though that could be worked around by mounting them in a clamp (which I do for other purposes anyway). Thus I'd need a way for the print head to be several inches above the surface that the stone is resting on.

 

 

I also wonder why you don't just glue the printed paper from the laser directly onto the stone, say with white glue, then grind right through the paper, and when done wash the "stencil" off with soap and water.

 

That might be worth a try actually. My only concern there would be that the tickness of the paper and glue would be significant enough to affect fine detail especially on the smaller 1.5cm2 stones. I tend to use a style of carving where I start out carving deep into the stone but carve more shallow as I come closer to an edge. This makes it much easier to get fine edges and allows me to use sandpaper to sand down the stone a bit to help correct minor mistakes if needed. In some cases I need to carve little milimeter-sized shapes where I can't carve much deeper than most paper is thick.

 

So in the general case I'd need really thin paper and glue that wasn't prone to flaking off and such. Still I might give this a try. Any ideas on what glue I should try?

 

Typically what I do with the toner is use 400 or 600 grain sandpaper to remove it while roughening the printing surface a bit to help modern stamp pad inks adhere to it better. (The tradional "ink" used for making impressions is based on cinnabar, plant fibers, and castor oil and will stick to pretty much anything regardless of smoothness or roughness. The Chinese word for the ink is 印泥 YIN4 NI2 which literally means "printing mud" though you can probably imagine what it's like based on the ingredients. The same term is also retained for referring to modern stamp pads used with rubber stamps even though they no longer resemble mud.)

 

 

At some point when I'm better at brush calligraphy I'll probably start using the traditional method of just writing on the stone in reverse with a brush and carving out the design, but for now I like to be able to play with stuff on the computer and transfer the image.

[nimrod]

Here's an example of one of the smaller seals. This one is slightly less than 1.5cm2 and says "happy birthday":

 

 

The impression is a bit splotchy because at the time I made the impression I was using the traditional cinnabar "printing mud" which I had let some of the castor oil seperate and leak out from (container got stored improperly) so the "mud" was a bit dry and the ink a bit too thick. The carving job is a bit ugly because this was my first attempt to carve 4 characters of this complexity into an area this small.

[captnemo]

Hmm. Interesting. I'd still consider using a dremel. Diamond bits are made down to just a few thousandths in size.

 

There are some mighty thin papers. As long as the laser can feed it you're okay. 20 lb bond might be too thick but there are thinner bond papers and then even thinner "onionskin" papers. Fed one sheet at a time a laser ought to be able to print on it.

 

For glue, I would use white glue for grade school kids (washable white glue). It sticks well enough for your purpose and dissolves in water. Any white glue would work. They are all water soluble, it just takes a little longer. Paint a nice even thin layer in the stone and stick it. White glue can also be thinned with water if it's too think or dries to fast.

 

Bond paper also might leave to much ragged fringe around where you grind. Tracing a clean cut around the marks with a sharp X-acto knife before you start carving would solve this, or perhaps onionskin paper might not get ragged at all.

 

Another possibility is printing on acetate transparencies. (clear plastic for use with overhead projectors) Laser printers have no trouble printing on those but they might be thicker than the paper, but they would cut cleanly without any raggedy edges.

 

 

As far as using an ink jet, yeah, you'd need to modify the printer to feed something much thicker than a CD. I dunno, but it's an idea.

[nimrod]

Hmm. Interesting. I'd still consider using a dremel. Diamond bits are made down to just a few thousandths in size.

 

That would work for some seals. The one in my avatar picture was one I bought at a department store and I think they carved it with a CNC machine or something. You can tell that it has a rather "machine carved" appearance. In it's case a power tool was needed; the material is a cheap jade. The ones I carve manually are made from soapstone.

 

But to some extent saying I should use power tools for this is like saying someone should just print a document in Zaph Chancery on their laser printer instead of using a pen and calligraphy skills. There are rough effects that you can get using the traditional knives that you probably can't get using a power tool. Modern seal carvers actually try to make some seals look like they're a thousand years old and such by chipping away at the stone in a certain manner. Some even attempt to immitate ancient seals that were literally carved in 5 minutes by generals who needed a crude, spur-of-the-moment, unique seal to authentiate battle plans on the battlefield.

 

Creating a CNC machine for something like this though might make an interesting Lego Mindstorms project for me to do sometime.

[Possum Hill]

This will sound like a strange request, and it's not really related to fountain pens, but people here seem to know something about paper and I'm not sure who else to ask. It is actually calligraphy-related (read on).

 

I often use a process by which I print a design on a laser printer, then use heat to transfer the toner off of the paper onto another surface. I actually use this technique for carving Chinese seals (called 篆刻 - "zhuan4 ke4" in Chinese, which make imprints like the one in my avatar picture) but others also use the same process to etch circuit boards.

 

(snip)

Any ideas on what I might try next and where I can get it?

 

You might try solvent transfer rather than heat transfer of the toner. See <http://www.diyhappy.com/solvent-transfers/>

[nimrod]

You might try solvent transfer rather than heat transfer of the toner. See <http://www.diyhappy.com/solvent-transfers/>

 

That looks like it might work really well. I'll have to get some xyline and give that a shot. Thanks!!

[captnemo]

You might try solvent transfer rather than heat transfer of the toner. See <http://www.diyhappy.com/solvent-transfers/>

 

That looks like it might work really well. I'll have to get some xyline and give that a shot. Thanks!!

 

That's a clever idea to add to my back of tricks! Good old xylene--very handy stuff for dissolving certain materials like getting tree sap off your car. Of course it also takes the wax off so you have to re-wax that part of the car.

 

On the paper gluing idea. I can understand your desire to use hand tools for this job but don't see why that wouldn't work with the glued paper method. It might be better than a power tool because I would anticipate a problem of the paper fuzzing at the edges if you used a Dremel but if your tools are like tiny woodchisels then your cuts into the paper will be razor sharp and clean.

 

[nimrod]

You might try solvent transfer rather than heat transfer of the toner. See <http://www.diyhappy.com/solvent-transfers/>

 

I just tried it using acetone and "goo be gone" just to see what would happen. The goo be gone stuff was kind of old so some parts of it may have evaporated. I didn't get any transfer onto the stone. Using the acetone I got some parts of the image to transfer but not most of it. I burnished the (bleep) out of it and oddly it seems almost like the least burnished parts were the parts that actually did transfer. From what I've read acetone will dissolve the dye and not just the toner.

 

Reading that web page I see that "stone" isn't listed as one of the materials known to work with this process. So I'll have to experiment. It may be that the toner won't stick to the stone but the dye in the toner will. If so acetone might be the way to go if I can figure out what's wrong with the burnishing step. Before that though I'll have to try actual Xyline though.

[captnemo]

You might try solvent transfer rather than heat transfer of the toner. See <http://www.diyhappy.com/solvent-transfers/>

 

I just tried it using acetone and "goo be gone" just to see what would happen. The goo be gone stuff was kind of old so some parts of it may have evaporated. I didn't get any transfer onto the stone. Using the acetone I got some parts of the image to transfer but not most of it. I burnished the (bleep) out of it and oddly it seems almost like the least burnished parts were the parts that actually did transfer. From what I've read acetone will dissolve the dye and not just the toner.

 

Reading that web page I see that "stone" isn't listed as one of the materials known to work with this process. So I'll have to experiment. It may be that the toner won't stick to the stone but the dye in the toner will. If so acetone might be the way to go if I can figure out what's wrong with the burnishing step. Before that though I'll have to try actual Xyline though.

 

If you are using black laser toner or xerography toner, the "dye" is carbon (lampblack).

 

I wonder--if the stone is really smooth and the paper porous, the burnishing might drive the toner more into the paper than onto the stone. I don't know how difficult or expensive it is for you to experiment but it might help if the stone were "roughed up" with suitable sandpaper so the toner (a thermoplastic) can be pressed into the stone and stick there. Just a thought.

[nimrod]

I wonder--if the stone is really smooth and the paper porous, the burnishing might drive the toner more into the paper than onto the stone. I don't know how difficult or expensive it is for you to experiment but it might help if the stone were "roughed up" with suitable sandpaper so the toner (a thermoplastic) can be pressed into the stone and stick there. Just a thought.

 

The stone is really smooth... I sanded it flat with 1600 grain sandpaper. I'll have to try varying degrees of roughness. (I've got 220, 400, 600, 800, and 1600 grain paper so one ought to be close to whatever's best). It isn't any big deal to resand the legend surface several times.

[captnemo]

I wonder--if the stone is really smooth and the paper porous, the burnishing might drive the toner more into the paper than onto the stone. I don't know how difficult or expensive it is for you to experiment but it might help if the stone were "roughed up" with suitable sandpaper so the toner (a thermoplastic) can be pressed into the stone and stick there. Just a thought.

 

The stone is really smooth... I sanded it flat with 1600 grain sandpaper. I'll have to try varying degrees of roughness. (I've got 220, 400, 600, 800, and 1600 grain paper so one ought to be close to whatever's best). It isn't any big deal to resand the legend surface several times.

 

Well it just seemed to me that once the solvent softens the PVC in the toner, it would more likely squish further into the pores of the paper. Hmm, my guess is the rougher the better, up to a point. I'd vote for 220 but who knows? And I could be completely wrong but it seems that the PVC needs some porosity to "grab onto" or be driven into by the burnishing.

 

Obviously you'd like the smoothest possible that still grabs, so it seems logical to start at 220 to see if the theory has ANY chance of working, and if it does, then go smoother and smoother until it fails to give a good result.

[nimrod]

I found some more interesting information on solvent toner transfers specifically for use with making Chinese seals.

 

I just bought a Chinese language book called "看图学篆刻" which basically translates to "Learn-by-Picture Seal Carving". It's a pretty good book since it contains step-by-step pictures for everything.

 

Anyway, it contains instructions on some traditional methods of ink transfer (basically you write on paper with a brush, place the paper with the ink facing the stone, and use water to transfer the ink onto the stone saving you from having to write mirror-image-style directly onto the stone.) The last method it shows however shows something that looks like a photocopy being used.

 

I asked my wife to read it since my Chinese reading ability isn't quite up to the task yet. Unfortunately the instructions didn't specifically say use a laser printer or photocopy, but the example picture looked like it showed a photocopy from a book being used. She said that the process was described as a "香蕉水" (literally "banana water") transfer. She was convined that this meant I should soak a bananna in water and use the result as a solvent. :ltcapd:

 

Not convinced, I did some searching around and though I never found a proper english translation for "banana water", I did find this list of ingrediants (run through google translate, so don't expect proper english here):

 

一、配制方法: 按重量比，取乙酸正丁酯15％，乙酸乙酯15％，正丁醇10～15％，乙醇10％，丙酮5～10％，苯20％，二甲苯20％，然后将其充分混匀即可制得香蕉水。

 

One, preparation methods

According to weight ratio, from 15% n-butyl acetate, ethyl acetate 15%, n-butanol 10 ~ 15%, 10% ethanol, acetone 5 ~ 10%, 20% benzene, xylene 20%, then its full blending bananas water can be obtained.

 

It sounds like this is some sort of paint thinner mixture but I still don't know what it's called in English, or if it's even used outside of China. One "banana water" translation I found was "banana oil" which is isoamyl acetate, however that can't possibly be what they were using.

 

But anyway it sounds like I have an example of someone using a solvent transfer for this purpose so I should be able to get it to work. Another useful bit of information, the text in the book said that you don't want to do too much rubbing for too long of a period of time.

 

Now I just need to learn enough Chinese to get on one of the Chinese forums on this subject and I can learn about this stuff much faster.