Proper Pen-Holding Position?

[Difd9]

Is this the proper pen holding position for spencerian script?

 

 

http://s21.postimg.org/6ht6ibj37/IMG_1284.jpghttp://s21.postimg.org/j7xever1f/IMG_1285.jpg

[Rednaxela]

This might be of help.

 

 

That said, I have seen the most beautiful Spencerian written with the strangest gripping techniques.

[knarflj]

I'm no expert in Spencerian, but I thought the ideal was to rest the weight of your arm on the forearm muscle, and let the whole hand move with the tips of the last couple fingers skating over the page, not plant the hand on those fingers and write with just finger movement?

[dhnz]

I’m very late to this discussion but wanted to comment because I’ve seen that clip on Youtube before and it’s completely wrong about the position for writing Spencerian.

 

The position that the woman ends up using just won’t work to produce correct letterforms because she’ll be pushing shades in letters like the capital A instead of pulling them (check out 2.19 and 4.10). She’s also resting on the side of her little finger, adding a lot of drag to what should be as frictionless a movement as possible. Ironically, her original position was closer to the traditional grip, but she doesn’t understand that you don’t pivot your hand on the wrist – you pivot from the elbow and you also move the paper to the left every couple of words to maintain the slant. (Moving the paper is essential if you want to write like the old masters did.)

 

Difd9, your position is pretty good but you should be rotating your hand anticlockwise 30 to 45 degrees so that your first two knuckles are facing upwards rather than to the right as in your first photo. This will then put your index finger on top of the penholder, making it easy to press down to create the shades. Your last three fingers are curled in slightly and either all three or just the little finger and the one next to it are lightly touching the paper. You can have your wrist grazing the paper (not resting on it), but I don’t – I have it a few millimetres above the paper because that gives more a more fluid motion. As knarflj says, you want the weight of your arm on your forearm, not on the wrist or your fingers.

[Rednaxela]

Dhnz, thank you so much for taking the time to comment on the video I posted. Very enlightening!

 

One reason I decided to link to it was that the comments section did not seem to have any critique (constructive or not) on what was being demonstrated. A weak criterion I know, but at the time it seemed like a useful video with the intention to help out.

 

Being the type of person who learns quickest from seeing someone do it, videos like these are invaluable, and can literally speak a thousand words. If only they were not so misinforming at times.

 

My apologies for confusing the matter, and once again thank you for taking the time to clear things up!

[dhnz]

Hi Rednaxela

 

No need to apologise – it was nice of you to take the time to post the video, especially since no one else had commented at the time. I agree with you that it's often easier to pick up things – especially fiddly things – from watching a video than from reading written instructions. It’s just a little unfortunate that the content of this video was perhaps not the best advice. I so wish we had film of the old masters writing. Just imagine seeing footage of Louis Madarasz writing some ornamental penmanship!

 

A lot of people have trouble with the traditional “knuckles-up” penhold because they’ve grown up using the “knuckles-right” grip and it’s hard to change. It took me several months of constantly fighting the urge to roll my hand before I started to feel I was winning. I am glad I put the effort in, though; in my experience the traditional hold is much superior to the modern “knuckles-right” grip.

 

I fear it’s going to be worse still for a lot of people in their 20s and younger who take up calligraphy in the years to come because I’ve seen a lot of people in that age range holding their pens in very odd positions indeed. Some almost make a fist around the pen! Unlearning that and going to a traditional grip will be a much bigger step.

[Rednaxela]

Thanks Dhnz, it would certainly have been interesting to see how Madarasz wrote!

 

The other day I studied some of the ancient instruction books on Spencerian handwriting, and I think I more or less understand the theory now. One trick I stumbled upon went like this.

 

Make a fist keeping the thumb outside, and put it down on the table, resting on the four intermediate phalanges. Then slightly open up the hand starting with the index and middle finger, just enough so that you can hold a pen between these and the thumb. The wrist will very slightly roll over to the side, and the ring and little finger will open up too, following the other two fingers, and ending with their nails on the table. Stop there, and start writing.

 

That should be pretty much the position, right?

 

I have tried writing this way, but I must say it doesn't feel very comfortable or helping yet. Sure, there's hardly any friction while moving the hand across the page. But keeping the wrist off the table feels rather tiring after a while. Is this a matter of training? Will this eventually go away?

 

Also, when I force my knuckles to point upwards (even) more, thus writing with an almost flat wrist, the writing of the ascender loops starts to feel more like pushing than swiping, if this makes sense. Because of this, I seem to lose the ability to make them as long and rounded as recommended, and it feels more limiting than liberating. This goes away when I allow my knuckles to point a little to the side, though still much more upwards than parallel to the table. Is this an old habit creeping in?

 

I would love to be able to write the way it was taught in the old days, especially when it enables one to do things that can hardly be done otherwise. Also, I'm open to the idea that initially it will feel as two steps back. With this in mind, would you say that am I on the right track yet? Are there perhaps other things you'd like to share from your own journey?

 

Would be interested in your thoughts!

[knarflj]

Rednelaxa, this trick doesn't seem to work for everyone, but perhaps it will help you; it certainly helped me:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/280674-dons-tripod-grip-theory/?p=3212396

 

Once you have the pen comfortably relaxed in your hand, gently lower the hand to the paper with the lower, flat part of the wrist parallel (or close to parallel) to the desk (don't let it roll much at all to the right for Spencerian), and rest gently on the triangle formed by your forearm, the nib, and the nails or fingertips of your smallest two fingers.

 

Then don't think so much of keeping your wrist off the table. (I find that trying NOT to do something is a sure way to cause tension in that spot!) Think of your pen and hand as a single unit that glides over the page, with the forearm as a pivot point. If your wrist or lower palm brushes the table, that's not the end of the world, so long as it moves freely as one with the rest of the hand. If you are wearing short sleeves, you may want to put a piece of scrap paper under your arm, so that it also has the ability to move a little on the table, and doesn't get stuck to one tiny spot. When writing in a bound book I often need to put paper under my palm, too, for the same reason (the palm that may not touch a single sheet of paper is still likely to brush the page if the forearm is significantly lower than the fingers).

 

Hope some of that will be helpful. I don't know enough to help you with ascenders, though.

 

Jenny

[Rednaxela]

Jenny,

 

Thank you so much for the link and the explanation!

 

Especially this part was very helpful:

 

Once you have the pen comfortably relaxed in your hand, gently lower the hand to the paper with the lower, flat part of the wrist parallel (or close to parallel) to the desk (don't let it roll much at all to the right for Spencerian), and rest gently on the triangle formed by your forearm, the nib, and the nails or fingertips of your smallest two fingers.

I'll give it a proper try tonight and let you know how I get on.

[dhnz]

Make a fist keeping the thumb outside, and put it down on the table, resting on the four intermediate phalanges. …

That should be pretty much the position, right?

 

I have tried writing this way, but I must say it doesn't feel very comfortable or helping yet. Sure, there's hardly any friction while moving the hand across the page. But keeping the wrist off the table feels rather tiring after a while. Is this a matter of training? Will this eventually go away?

 

Yes, you’re on the right track. I’ve read the “make a fist” instructions before and they’re a good way to explain the position, though you should be resting on the ends of your fingers (the distal phalanges to be technical, not the intermediates). It won’t feel natural or comfortable for a while yet, particularly if you’ve been writing on the side of your palm for a long time. You’ll find yourself unconsciously rolling your hand back onto the side, but the longer you practise the easier it gets. I think a lot of people try it only for a few hours at most and give it up after that, but you’ve got to be prepared to work at it. It would have been easier for people in the late 1800s, because this would have been the position they were taught at school right from the start, whereas nowadays many people wouldn’t have been taught how to hold a pen at any stage in their lives. (As an aside, I see a lot of people in US TV clips holding their pens almost vertically in a closed fist sort of grip. I doubt that it’s just an American thing, but I’ve seen more Americans doing it.)

 

I can’t say I find the position tiring and I can’t remember ever finding it so, but I’m sure it will get better for you. Because the forearm and the ends of my little and ring fingers are resting on the desk, I find my wrist naturally floats just above it. Indeed, I’d have to force my wrist down to get it on the table, which is unnatural and uncomfortable for me and also has the effect of taking the weight off my little and ring fingers, thus increasing the friction again.

 

Not all of your knuckles are going to face straight up. If you draw a line through the knuckles from top to bottom and on down to the desk, the index and middle finger knuckle lines are pretty much at 90 degrees to the desktop, but the next two are closer to 60 degrees. This is due to those fingers being shorter and being curled under the hand, resulting in that side of the hand being lower. So, there is a slope to the top of the hand, and that’s fine. You just don’t want the side of your palm on the desktop. If you look at the images here, you can see that the gadgets are all designed to hold the hand in this position. Incidentally, Zaner Bloser still sell a writing frame, but it’s for pencils or ball points and doesn’t look like it’d work for dip pens. (It also clearly doesn’t restrict the hand enough, allowing poor positions to be adopted.)

 

Zaner’s Arm Movement Method of Rapid Writing probably has the most discussion of the old manuals on the principle and physiology of the traditional “knuckles up” hand position. You can find it at Iampeth. See especially pages 10 to 13.

 

My own experience was that when I went from writing with finger movement to using arm movement only (keeping my fingers immobile), my writing went backwards and became much bigger. I expected this, however, having read it in an old penmanship text somewhere, so I didn’t get discouraged. When I started using the traditional grip, I didn’t see my writing deteriorate but I did find myself having to consciously readjust my hand all the time. The benefits though were obvious: drawing entry ovals and transitioning from lowercase letters to a capital or to a flourish was much easier and smoother and my lines were far less wobbly. The fingertips also acted as a kind of limiter, keeping the tip of the nib from pressing down too hard on the paper and assisting with my hairlines.

Edited April 29, 2016 by dhnz

[Rednaxela]

Terrific Dhnz, thank you so much for all this!

Yes, youre on the right track. Ive read the make a fist instructions before and theyre a good way to explain the position, though you should be resting on the ends of your fingers (the distal phalanges to be technical, not the intermediates).

Understood, thanks. For the record, the intermediate ones were only mentioned w.r.t. the starting position. The description ends with the two smallest fingers on their distal phalanges indeed.

Thank you for the clear explanation on knuckle angle. I will pay special attention to this aspect.

Love the gadgets link! It gives the impression that back in the days there were people who have been struggling with this too. Which is kind of a comforting thought. The Penman's Ring looks like an elegant and useful aid actually.

I've downloaded the Arm Movement Manual. Thanks for the tip, I hadn't seen it before. It seems to be a very informative book indeed.

The tendency to roll the hand to the side is very recognisable. The trick from the video I posted, i.e. holding the pen in front of the first index finger knuckle, seems to help me keep a flatter wrist and the knuckles more upright. However, the position^* as a whole is so completely different from what I'm used to, that it feels like it will take quite a while to adjust.

In any case, I am determined to work on this for a couple of weeks to see if it will get me anywhere. It is great to know about people like you who succeeded. Thanks again for your help.

 

 

 

* Edit: of course referring to the traditional grip, not the rest of what is shown in the video.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Rednaxela

[KeithS]

So, I've been at this Spencerian for a couple months and I too struggle with the grip. Reading The New Spencerian Compendium and trying to follow their instruction seems impossible. "Tip of pen pointing to right shoulder" This angles the pen with the point to the right and even seems to block vision to what you're writing. I would love to see someone who writes in the traditional fashion to make a video. I too an driven to learn, but this really is frustrating.

[KeithS]

So I've pulled down the "Arm Movement Method" suggested above and find the pen holding position better. I must say I'm pretty dismayed at essentially having to start over after putting this much work into it--hopefully some of what I've learned will be beneficial as time goes on. I could kill the modern school system. They've screwed up everything. 56 years old and learning how to write properly...crazy.

[Rednaxela]

Last week I went through both books. They seem quite aligned regarding pen holding theory, the Arm Movememt Method being a little bit less rigid indeed. Agree with KeithS that pointing the pen's tail over the shoulder makes it a bit hard to see what the nib is doing.

 

The big change for me so far has been to push out the third and fourth finger to enable the hand to glide on their nails. This really helps, and feels kind of liberating. Keeping the wrist off the table all the time is still a challenge though.

 

I have tried to write Spencerian small 'l's, three fifths of an inch high, without moving my fingers, only with the arm, gliding on the nails etc. Filled two A4's with them, loop after loop, line after line, but there was no single 'l' that I would want to use in a letter. Given the fact that I've written this shape all my life (though usually not that large), I couldn't help feeling a bit disappointed and frustrated. Not sure what to conclude from this at this stage.

 

One observation, it appears to me from the various illustrations that the pens and holders were quite slender back in the days. Following the instructions and ending with the writing instrument in the right position seemed easier with a pencil than with a fountain pen. Anyone who recognises this?

[Rednaxela]

FWIW, this is what H.P. Behrensmeyer shows in his Lessons in Practical Penmanship, page 5.

 

 

What I like about this is that the illustrations were photographed.

 

The two books mentioned earlier in this thread seem to propose a straighter index finger and a somewhat higher placed thumb.

[Rednaxela]

Another one FWIW, taken from Lessons in Ornamental Penmanship (Bloser).

 

[KeithS]

Notice these photos don't exhibit the traditional (knuckles up) position. After experimenting some, I've concluded the traditional position isn't even possible with a modern pen-you need a nib since the position is so flat. Google ergonomic oblique holders to see an example of this (these holders force the traditional position.

[Rednaxela]

Notice these photos don't exhibit the traditional (knuckles up) position.

True. In fact I have yet to see the first photograph (or video) of a master penman applying the traditional knuckles up position with a straight pen. I mean the last page above shows P. Z. Bloser, and the pictures on the other page were at least approved by H. P. Behrensmeyer. They should know, right?

 

After experimenting some, I've concluded the traditional position isn't even possible with a modern pen-you need a nib since the position is so flat.

Interesting. When I copy the position from these figures (New Spencerian Compendium) as closely as I can, my Pentel EnerGel seems to write just fine. I wouldn't call the pen angle very flat either.

 

 

 

Out of interest, do you rest the upper half of your pen in front of your index finger knuckle joint? In my hand this makes a big difference in terms of pen angle.

 

 

 

Edit: fixed mixing up Bloser and Behrensmeyer.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Rednaxela

[Rednaxela]

As far as I can tell this isn't 'true' knuckles up either.

 

 

The position does work quite well for me though.

[KeithS]

Rednaxela, I rest just behind the knuckle. That picture is from the whole arm movement book, which was an evolution from Spencerian. As I mentioned above, I find that position much better than the traditional too.