Dating The Celluloid And Late Rubber Pens?

[Cepasaccus]

I do have a rather good feeling for the dating of the old hard rubber pens, but I lack nearly completely an understanding of the dating of the celluloid and late rubber pens (as well as a nearly complete lack of the pens themself). Is there an overview somewhere?

 

Cepasaccus

[MarcShiman]

I can help out with the American pens, not so much with the British Pens. There is mainly a 12 year stretch in which American celluloids were made.

[Cepasaccus]

I don't have to date really specific pens. It is just that I would like to know the date of pen types or styles, e.g. this type https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/296189-mabie-todd-pen-dimensions/?p=3448600 or the flat-tops with the black-gold-black bands, so that I am able to guestimate the dating of the pens I see.

 

Cepasaccus

[Greenie]

There is a transition from the more cylindrical "flat top" to the more tapered style. Also , the clip style changes from a stepped clip to a more traditional clip. Finally, the hard rubber lever and leverless (with two styles of knobs) can be used to help narrow down the age of the pens.

 

I am at work now. Later I will go back to my sources/books/on line references and get the ball rolling on rough dates for various styles.

[MarcShiman]

This is for American pens only. The pen you referred to is British, and none of this applies.

 

 

1924 - 1928: Swan Eternal Pens in BHR, RHR, MHR, Blue "Eternalite", and Jade "Eternalite". The blue is a white on blue lapis, although there are examples of blue on blue lapis as well (elsewhere called "mottled blue" by Mabie Todd). Strictly flattops although there are a few examples of slightly tapered pens. Sizes are 44, 46, 48, 54, 56, and 58 (pens 3 and 4)

 

1926 - 1930: Swan 142, 242, 172, pens - thinner flattops, non-eternal in Scarlett, Tangerine, Blue, Jade, and eventually Ebony. No hard rubbers. Seems to have been made in both the UK and the US (pens 1 and 2)

 

1926 - 1930: Swan Moire pens - ringtops in blue, nile green, coral (more like a salmon), violet, and fuchsia (yes, seriously) - not shown

 

1928 - 1932: Swan 2nd generation of Eternals - MHR was the only hard rubber, and it gave way to a plastic "mottled mahogany" in 30-31. Also in Ebony (black plastic), Jade, and Cracked Ice. There is also a blue with white veins, but I don't think it was part of the eternal line. These were flattops until 1931 when they started significantly tapering them. I think these were limited to 44, 46, and 54 (pens 5-9)

 

1st and 2nd generation eternals can be differentiated by the clips (first gen had "1915" on the clips, second gen had an image of a swan) and cap bands (first generation had stack coin bands, second generation had alternating rings with celluloid in between - with the Ebony, the celluloid was jade; others used ebony)

 

All of this stuff has exceptions, and there are a number of transitional pens between the two generations.

 

After this I don't have years, so these are guesses. At this point, MT, Co (US) stopped numbering their pens.

 

 

1931-1933 - tapered Swan pens with step clips with a swan on them. Marbled patterns. There is also lizard, and scarlet. I doubt there's a definitive list of colors. Really really tough to find. (first pen from left)

 

1933-1936 - clips became top mounted with a jewel. A number of geometric celluloids with lines running north-south. Also marble colors, also probably no definitive list of colors (pens 4-7)

 

1935-1937 - faceted pens in marbled colors (pens 8-10)

 

1936-1939 - tapered pens with "arrow" clips - mounted in the cap, with a pointy end on the bottom. The only ad I've seen is for a Swan pen Gimbels was selling for $1.39 in 1936. (pens 2-3)

 

1939 - The "Capacity Pen", a strange sort of piston made in Kearny NJ. Also marbled color (not shown - looks like tapered pens with arrow clips)

 

somewhere in there is a bulb filer as well. Once you get past the Eternal pens, its very hazy. I've never found a catalog or an ad other than the Gimbels ad.

 

British pens have an entirely different history, and can be much more accurately dated through advertising.

 

The order of these pens, particularly the order of the top mounted clip pens coming ahead of the arrow clip pens comes from David Moak's research and book. I'm not sure I agree with the progression, and have a feeling that order is reversed (the arrow clip pens come ahead of the top-mounted clips). David's evidence is the 1936 ad for the pen with the arrow clip, but I don't think those geometric celluloids were used until the late 30's.

 

Mysteries.

Edited September 12, 2015 by MarcShiman

[Cepasaccus]

Thanks, Marc! So in 1939 just before the military clip they stopped making pens?

 

Cepasaccus

[Cob]

The New York operation closed in 1938 and the NJ one started the next day...

 

The final shut down was in 1941.

 

Cob

Edited September 12, 2015 by Cob

[Greenie]

The New York operation closed in 1938 and the NJ one started the next day...

 

The final shut down was in 1941.

 

Cob

Woke up late. Now I don't have to open my book. Looks like I am the odd man out as far as time zones go in this forum.

[Greenie]

Quick flipping through Moak book

Eternals 1924 - 27, have the 1915 clip

1927 - change to the Swan logo clip. Pearl color introduced 1927

 

The 142 and 242 colored pens - Jade, Tangerine, Scarlet, Black and Jade 1927 though 1930's

 

Streamlined caps came in about 1932

American pens with striped plastic and arrow clips 1932- end

Edited September 12, 2015 by Greenie
corrected typo

[MarcShiman]

From the British ads I have, the step clips stopped showing up in 1933. I also don't have any post-1932 British ads for eternals or 142/242 pens (which means I don't have any ads, it doesn't mean the pens didn't exist). Also, British Eternals (444/644/844) continued with the stacked coin bands in the advertisements right up through 32. Only the American eternals switched to rings.

 

The American streamline eternals were introduced in 31. I've got a wholesalers catalog with them.

 

I've also got a 1929 British ad showing "1915" step clips.

 

All to say its just very confusing sometimes.

Edited September 12, 2015 by MarcShiman

[MarcShiman]

This is why MT is so hard to date - here's a 1929 ad for two pens - an SF230, and what I assume is a 242. Note the two different clips

 

[pen2paper]

Question please. I see moire in that Swan UK ad... Parker's shift from HR to "Permanite" which I understand to be celluloid, (feel free to make corrections). I have the non-moire mauve Parker Pastel ringtop. So, being familiar with the Parker advertisement, I'm curious to know/establish if the moire of MT US and/or could be from the same plastics manufacturers?

 

Besides my own curiosity, the source of materials, or lack of, (such as Waterman cornering HR), is sometimes a clue to to dates.

 

Do you have access to the old UK trade journal's like American Stationer? (the UK ad)

[MarcShiman]

I don't think that pen is supposed to be moire - "jade" was not a moire color. I think that's just the way they attempted to represent the jade color. Also, all the moires were ringtops.

 

I haven't seen trade journals that indicate where the plastic was purchased. We can roughly date the pens on advertising dates.

Edited September 15, 2015 by MarcShiman