Dating Parker 75 Pens

[idazle]

For instance the 1963-65 pens have a finer engraved crosshatch pattern than the later pens as well as the notched tassie with the inset clip, it's not just the metal sections that differentiate it from the later pens.

 

Yes, I knew this. And also that apparently in early pens the engraved lines were filled with a black enamel instead of simply letting the patina darken the lines (my source here is Lih-Tah Wong).

 

.. but for the purposes of the chart, which is to help people date their Parker 75 early pens (see for instance https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/277262-parker-75-late-60s-new-found-with-box-certificate-and-tag-price-help-needed/), are these characteristics (I wouldn't call them "variations") useful? Have you helped the FPer of the thread to identify his early pens by using the finer engrave crosshatch pattern or have you used -as I do in the chart- the metal thread feature? I have a metal threaded early Parker 75 and am unable to distinguish that fine pattern from the later ones. But maybe that is because I am not the smartest duck of the flock

 

The information you provide for the UK variants is most interesting though. I had only read something about this in an e-Bay ad long ago and in the usual source (Lih-Tah Wong):

 

 

I will modify the chart to include this. Thanks for your contribution.

Edited November 4, 2014 by idazle

[idazle]

By the way, there are two "features" that I have deliberately not taken into account in the chart for identification purposes: boxes and converters. Boxes are easily swaped between older and newer pens, and apparently converters too. Lih-Tah Wong provides a gross chronological sequence for the 3 or 4 most frequently found converters, but I've seen quite a few exceptions, with later production pens fitted with old style converters and the other way round. But of course there will surely be better informed judgements than mine on this and contributions are welcome, as always.

Edited November 4, 2014 by idazle

[Matlock]

 

Yes, I knew this. And also that apparently in early pens the engraved lines were filled with a black enamel instead of simply letting the patina darken the lines (my source here is Lih-Tah Wong).

 

.. but for the purposes of the chart, which is to help people date their Parker 75 early pens (see for instance https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/277262-parker-75-late-60s-new-found-with-box-certificate-and-tag-price-help-needed/), are these characteristics (I wouldn't call them "variations") useful? Have you helped the FPer of the thread to identify his early pens by using the finer engrave crosshatch pattern or have you used -as I do in the chart- the metal thread feature? I have a metal threaded early Parker 75 and am unable to distinguish that fine pattern from the later ones. But maybe that is because I am not the smartest duck of the flock

 

The information you provide for the UK variants is most interesting though. I had only read something about this in an e-Bay ad long ago and in the usual source (Lih-Tah Wong):

 

 

I will modify the chart to include this. Thanks for your contribution.

 

 

Just to throw another fly in the ointment. Any Parker Sterling Silver 75 imported by Parker would be hallmarked even if it was not the official UK model. I have an early 75 which has the hallmark but does not have a hallmarked gold clip. I have to say that I have never actually seen a hallmarked clip, if any member has one I wonder if they could post a picture? Sometimes official literature can be a little misleading, I remember that the Parker 51 2002 Special Edition was claimed to have a Steling Silver cap but as it was not hallmarked it had to be marketed in the UK as having a "white metal" cap. As it was made in the UK I am sure it was NOT silver, but who knows?

[Captivelight]

Any idea when they changed the grips on the shell section? I believe that the earlier ones had the grips go all the way to the end of the shell near the thread, later ones stop short of the end, but not sure of dates.

[idazle]

Any idea when they changed the grips on the shell section? I believe that the earlier ones had the grips go all the way to the end of the shell near the thread, later ones stop short of the end, but not sure of dates.

 

It should have changed relatively early (before 1970??). Look at this pen with zero mark and flat tassies which however shows a the "short" gripping area:

 

http://www.ebay.es/itm/171487959608?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

 

Of course we should be able to see more samples before generalising an observation from a single exemplar.

 

I edit to add a "counterexample" of a Parker 75 that also sports zero mark and flat tassies but has the "long" gripping area:

 

http://www.ebay.es/itm/131319536388?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

Edited November 4, 2014 by idazle

[idazle]

A new version of the chart where Ive done my best to include all your useful suggestions and contributions. If I have made a mistake (and I surely have) please tell me.

 

 

[ceejaybee]

 

 

Just to throw another fly in the ointment. Any Parker Sterling Silver 75 imported by Parker would be hallmarked even if it was not the official UK model. I have an early 75 which has the hallmark but does not have a hallmarked gold clip. I have to say that I have never actually seen a hallmarked clip, if any member has one I wonder if they could post a picture? Sometimes official literature can be a little misleading, I remember that the Parker 51 2002 Special Edition was claimed to have a Steling Silver cap but as it was not hallmarked it had to be marketed in the UK as having a "white metal" cap. As it was made in the UK I am sure it was NOT silver, but who knows?

I'd be interested to hear which hallmarks your Sterling 75 has? If it has Full UK Assay marks then the chances are the clip has been replaced at some point in it's lifetime - that's the thing with 75s you can replace just about any part of it pretty easily. On the later 75s (1985 onwards) the French hallmarks weren't legally recognised here in the UK and as such couldn't be advertised as Sterling Silver and the 'White Metal' description was used here too.

 

The hallmark for the clip is on the ring.

 

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/ceejaybee_photo/9k.jpg

[ceejaybee]

The chart's looking good although one thing to note is that French made 18K nibs were used on pens marketed in France, these could possibly date back as early as 1968 when the Meru factory started 75 production, they are certainly commonplace on USA made pens in France with the flat tassies and early clips.

Edited November 4, 2014 by ceejaybee

[Captivelight]

I'm finding this fascinating seeing all the variations on the same basic pen. Thank you for all your hard work and for sharing it with us.

[Matlock]

I'd be interested to hear which hallmarks your Sterling 75 has? If it has Full UK Assay marks then the chances are the clip has been replaced at some point in it's lifetime - that's the thing with 75s you can replace just about any part of it pretty easily. On the later 75s (1985 onwards) the French hallmarks weren't legally recognised here in the UK and as such couldn't be advertised as Sterling Silver and the 'White Metal' description was used here too.

 

The hallmark for the clip is on the ring.

 

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/ceejaybee_photo/9k.jpg

 

Thanks for that, I haven't removed the clip so it may have the hallmark. No the clip has not been replaced as it is one of the very early 75s with the notched tassie. It has the standard hallmark for imported silver. It is interesting what you say about the French hallmarked pens as, from what I have been told, French hallmarks are recognised in the UK (as are English and Irish hallmarks in France). Parker Sterling Silver Sonnets are recognised with the French hallmark.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Matlock

[Matlock]

The chart's looking good although one thing to note is that French made 18K nibs were used on pens marketed in France, these could possibly date back as early as 1968 when the Meru factory started 75 production, they are certainly commonplace on USA made pens in France with the flat tassies and early clips.

 

This is because 14k is not recognised as gold in France. However, in spite of that, French 14K nibs are available.

[idazle]

I'm finding this fascinating seeing all the variations on the same basic pen. Thank you for all your hard work and for sharing it with us.

 

I agree, though variations within same period production are not being considered in the chart, like pens having the plastic section in blue and rare transition tassies, etc. Thanks to you for calling attention upon the gripping area. I'll keep researching this though. For the time being I've found a 1970 ad featuring a pen that still sported the full gripping section. Cheers.

 

[idazle]

The chart's looking good although one thing to note is that French made 18K nibs were used on pens marketed in France, these could possibly date back as early as 1968 when the Meru factory started 75 production, they are certainly commonplace on USA made pens in France with the flat tassies and early clips.

 

I agree that if we apply what was the rule with other pen manufacturers, pens made in USA for the French market should have sported 18K nibs, as French law required (maybe still requires, I don't know) that only 18K gold could be advertised as "gold". But the fact is that I haven't yet seen a Parker 75 18k gold nib made in USA, althoug as matlock has said there were 14k and 18k French nibs. But maybe you or someone else could contribute pics of 18k nibs made in USA in the period covered by the chart.

[ceejaybee]

 

Thanks for that, I haven't removed the clip so it may have the hallmark. No the clip has not been replaced as it is one of the very early 75s with the notched tassie. It has the standard hallmark for imported silver. It is interesting what you say about the French hallmarked pens as, from what I have been told, French hallmarks are recognised in the UK (as are English and Irish hallmarks in France). Parker Sterling Silver Sonnets are recognised with the French hallmark.

 

Sorry I should have been clearer, French hallmarks have been recognised here in the UK since 1997 but weren't when the Sterling 75 was still in production - up to 1993.

 

I'd seriously like to see your Sterling 75 - it sounds extremely interesting and a variation I've yet to see any chance of pics??

 

as a side note you can remove the clips from the notched tassies - it just sits inside the tassie rather than fitting through the top of the cap as with the later style pens.

Edited November 4, 2014 by ceejaybee

[Matlock]

 

Sorry I should have been clearer, French hallmarks have been recognised here in the UK since 1997 but weren't when the Sterling 75 was still in production - up to 1993.

 

I'd seriously like to see your Sterling 75 - it sounds extremely interesting and a variation I've yet to see any chance of pics??

 

as a side note you can remove the clips from the notched tassies - it just sits inside the tassie rather than fitting through the top of the cap as with the later style pens.

 

Thanks for that. I will try to post pics tomorrow. I have never felt the need to remove the clip (if it aint broke why fix it?). The hallmark, by the way, is PPC, the London Assay Office mark for imported Sterling Silver, .925 and then the date letter for 1964-5 i (this is not too clear as it has been stamped on one of the cross hatches).

[ceejaybee]

 

I agree that if we apply what was the rule with other pen manufacturers, pens made in USA for the French market should have sported 18K nibs, as French law required (maybe still requires, I don't know) that only 18K gold could be advertised as "gold". But the fact is that I haven't yet seen a Parker 75 18k gold nib made in USA, althoug as matlock has said there were 14k and 18k French nibs. But maybe you or someone else could contribute pics of 18k nibs made in USA in the period covered by the chart.

 

I think you may have misunderstood my post, I see you've changed your chart to include nibs but only only include the 14K nib which, to me anyway, now suggests the Sterling 75s in this period were only sold with 14K nibs? Yet the fact is Parker USA were retailing Sterling 75s to the French market within your timeframe fitted with French made 18K nibs and your chart doesn't seem to make allowance for it.

 

What other pen manufacturers were doing or where these 18K nibs were made isn't really relevent - I never suggested they were USA made or that Parker even made 18K nibs in the USA

[idazle]

 

Yet the fact is Parker USA were retailing Sterling 75s to the French market within your timeframe fitted with French made 18K nibs and your chart doesn't seem to make allowance for it.

 

Exactly, the chart does not reflect that as long as it might be a fact to you, but I haven't seen any evidence so far

[Matlock]

My 75 with it's close friend T-1

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by Matlock

[ceejaybee]

 

Exactly, the chart does not reflect that as long as it might be a fact to you, but I haven't seen any evidence so far

Fair enough, watch out for Sterling 75s with the French hallmarks for imported silver.

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/ceejaybee_photo/IMG_6761.jpg

[ceejaybee]

My 75 with it's close friend T-1

Nice pairing Love the T1s

Thanks for the photo, does the Sterling 75 have any UK hallmarks on the cap band?

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/ceejaybee_photo/IMG_6763.jpg