Mabie Todd Swan Gold Chasing Patterns

[HalloweenHJB]

Just curious to see if anyone has any idea about the time period for this particular pattern on a Mabie Todd (lever filler, "chevron" (??) pattern).

 

 

 

Now that I am collecting vintage pens, I am trying to find a fairly good, reliable estimate for the time period in which they were produced. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

[HalloweenHJB]

No Mabie Todd owners out there with information to share??

[richardandtracy]

I am not a 'Mabie Todd' owner or collector per se (owning only one Swan #2 eyedropper c1915 and one Blackbird lever fill c1920), but will give what little info I can.

 

The presence of the clip dates it as WW1 or later. Prior to this people didn't have pens in shirt pockets. The fact it has '1915' as the clip patent date confirms it.

The pen will be black hard rubber (BHR) inside the overlay, a material that was common in pens until the 1930's.

 

The gold overlay indicates it was a high end pen. The Chevron pattern was typical in the 1920's on high end gold pens. The cheaper gold pens were plainer and had some exposed BHR. The lever fill suggests no earlier than the early 1920's as pens in the late 19-teens were more likely to be eyedroppers. The clip is part of the cap, rather than an aftermarket addition, so that also suggests 1920's rather than late 19-teens. The shape of the clip looks early to me, so early-mid 1920's. However, Yard-O-Led are currently producing pens with that clip shape, so it's no more than an indicator. The position of the thread for the cap suggests mid-late 1920's to me, but I don't know why, more of a 'gut feel' than something based on evidence.

 

The shape of the pen is typical 1920's and may be seen in Mabie Todds, Watermans, Onotos etc.. Mabie Todd were quicker to adopt new shapes than Onoto, and the section shape is similar to Onoto's of the early 1930's, but also of Parker Duofolds of the mid-late 1920's. So, without reference to the hallmark (which should give the year it was assayed) , all the evidence points to a mid 1920's pen as the clip, section and lever shapes all overlapped at about that time.

 

Do try to find the hallmark - it should be there somewhere. If it isn't, and the pen is marked as 'England' or 'USA', then it may actually be brass. I have seen a few, for people who wanted to look as if it were gold, but at a much lower price. At the time Onoto's with gold chased overlay were selling at £6 6S, or up to 6 weeks average pay, so a brass pen was an economical alternative to the style conscious cheapskate.

 

Sorry I have so little real information to give, or evidence, but that's the best I can do.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[HalloweenHJB]

I am not a 'Mabie Todd' owner or collector per se (owning only one Swan #2 eyedropper c1915 and one Blackbird lever fill c1920), but will give what little info I can.

 

The presence of the clip dates it as WW1 or later. Prior to this people didn't have pens in shirt pockets. The fact it has '1915' as the clip patent date confirms it.

The pen will be black hard rubber (BHR) inside the overlay, a material that was common in pens until the 1930's.

 

The gold overlay indicates it was a high end pen. The Chevron pattern was typical in the 1920's on high end gold pens. The cheaper gold pens were plainer and had some exposed BHR. The lever fill suggests no earlier than the early 1920's as pens in the late 19-teens were more likely to be eyedroppers. The clip is part of the cap, rather than an aftermarket addition, so that also suggests 1920's rather than late 19-teens. The shape of the clip looks early to me, so early-mid 1920's. However, Yard-O-Led are currently producing pens with that clip shape, so it's no more than an indicator. The position of the thread for the cap suggests mid-late 1920's to me, but I don't know why, more of a 'gut feel' than something based on evidence.

 

The shape of the pen is typical 1920's and may be seen in Mabie Todds, Watermans, Onotos etc.. Mabie Todd were quicker to adopt new shapes than Onoto, and the section shape is similar to Onoto's of the early 1930's, but also of Parker Duofolds of the mid-late 1920's. So, without reference to the hallmark (which should give the year it was assayed) , all the evidence points to a mid 1920's pen as the clip, section and lever shapes all overlapped at about that time.

 

Do try to find the hallmark - it should be there somewhere. If it isn't, and the pen is marked as 'England' or 'USA', then it may actually be brass. I have seen a few, for people who wanted to look as if it were gold, but at a much lower price. At the time Onoto's with gold chased overlay were selling at £6 6S, or up to 6 weeks average pay, so a brass pen was an economical alternative to the style conscious cheapskate.

 

Sorry I have so little real information to give, or evidence, but that's the best I can do.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

 

Richard,

Thank you very much for the very complete and detailed information. I appreciate it greatly. I am trying to learn how to make intelligent guesses about dates of manufacture, and your helpful indication of "clues" are most welcomed.

 

I am sorry that you were the bearer of sad tidings, since it appears the pen is really just brass, and not gold, as it was advertised by the seller. At the bottom of the barrel it has the following markings: "SWAN PEN" MABIE, TODD & Co. NEW YORK MADE IN USA

There is no mention of karat value. There isn't even a karat marking on the nib.

 

It's a pretty pen, but probably spent too much money on it. Live and learn, as my grandmother used to say...

 

Thanks again for the help!

[richardandtracy]

Sorry there's no hallmark, but don't despair. The pen is a step up from the BHR, and brass overlay pens are possibly less common nowadays than gold. It does have a moderate value - but you may have a claim against the vendor if they said 'Gold' as opposed to 'Gold Coloured'.

 

I think the nib will be gold, possibly with a '14K' stamp hidden under the section. The gold plated steel nibs of the day used to say 'Warranted' to indicate that a certain life was guaranteed (can't remember what the warranted life was, if I ever knew). Your nib says 'Mabie Todd' at the very least (can't decipher more) and Mabie Todd used gold for their own nibs in the lower quality 'Blackbird' brand, so I can't imagine it would be any different in the higher quality 'Swan' brand.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[joswu]

http://i.imgur.com/4vSM1MN.jpgI have one same patterns, but shorter size.

[HalloweenHJB]

Yes, that's the same pattern. Do you have a "hallmark" or indication of carat number? If not, sadly, yours too may be brass instead of gold.

[joswu]

I didnt see "hallmark" or indication of carat number.

And I didnt pay much on this pen.

But I found same pen on eBay, this seller declare this is 14K Solid Gold ?! Really weird...http://i.imgur.com/Up0pkP8.jpg

[Cob]

All Mabie Todd pens had gold nibs. The MT New York nibs are usually lovely - I have a gold plated NY Swan with the 1915 patent clip; I suppose it dates form the mid 1920s. It has a glorious flexible nib.

 

I bought it for reasonable money because it had a broken clip which I have since replaced. I should think it is worth about £90 or so these days.

 

Cob

Edited February 25, 2016 by Cob

[HalloweenHJB]

All Mabie Todd pens had gold nibs. The MT New York nibs are usually lovely - I have a gold plated NY Swan with the 1915 patent clip; I suppose it dates form the mid 1920s. It has a glorious flexible nib.

 

I bought it for reasonable money because it had a broken clip which I have since replaced. I should think it is worth about £90 or so these days.

 

Cob

 

 

Quite right. But I do wonder about the barrel and cap, whether they are really "gold filled," "solid gold," or simply brass. When I bought my pen, it was listed as "gold" which appear less likely now. But you are exactly right about the nib-- it is flexible, and the pen writes beautifully.

[Greenie]

These Swan metal pens appear to be gold filled, but for some reason, do not say gold filled. None of mine have any mention of the metal. However, the brassing on the end of the barrel shows that the pen is, in fact, gold filled. Look at a lot of the ebay auctions for Swan metal pens and many show obvious brassing at the end of the barrel to go along with my conjecture.

 

this one, for example

 

or here

 

They seem to be very similar to my 1920s Wahl metal pens.

[Greenie]

I am 2 1/2 years late to the thread, but glad it was revived. I was not active here at that time.

 

These pens are typical of the 1920s. That clip design, per the Moak book, was used up through about 1927. The lever design puts the pen at 1919 or later.

 

I have not seen any standard resources that name any of the patterns. I think everone just tried to give them a good name. Yours would be "chevron" pattern. Also seen are rings, rosettes, dots, chain, alternating slashes, and hand carved floral designs.

[Cob]

These Swan metal pens appear to be gold filled, but for some reason, do not say gold filled. None of mine have any mention of the metal. However, the brassing on the end of the barrel shows that the pen is, in fact, gold filled. Look at a lot of the ebay auctions for Swan metal pens and many show obvious brassing at the end of the barrel to go along with my conjecture.

 

this one, for example

 

or here

 

They seem to be very similar to my 1920s Wahl metal pens.

Yes exaclty.

 

Mine has plating loss at the end obviously caused by posting.

 

Incidentally the section on mine is normal BHR - not covered with metal like the OP's pen - I did have a Leverless which had that feature, this of course was an English pen and would have been made around 1934. Otherwise like the NY self-filler I have it was very slim and yes, the plate had worn owing to posting!

 

C.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Cob

[HalloweenHJB]

These Swan metal pens appear to be gold filled, but for some reason, do not say gold filled. None of mine have any mention of the metal. However, the brassing on the end of the barrel shows that the pen is, in fact, gold filled. Look at a lot of the ebay auctions for Swan metal pens and many show obvious brassing at the end of the barrel to go along with my conjecture.

 

 

Yes exaclty.

 

Mine has plating loss at the end obviously caused by posting.

 

Incidentally the section on mine is normal BHR - not covered with metal like the OP's pen - I did have a Leverless which had that feature, this of course was an English pen and would have been made around 1934. Otherwise like the NY self-filler I have it was very slim and yes, the plate had worn owing to posting!

 

C.

 

 

I am so relieved to see these posts! I was feeling like such a fool for spending the amount I paid if the pen were not at least gold filled. Thanks for brightening my day, Greenie and Cob!

[Cob]

I am truly glad that my friend Greenie and I have brightened your day.

 

Here's a snap of the the two rolled gold Swans - the leverless has been sold - I still have the self-filler.:

 

 

Cob

Edited February 25, 2016 by Cob

[Greenie]

Now this is interesting in the typical FPN way.

That beautiful Barleycorn lever model appears to be a gold overlay on BHR. Is it rubber all the way up the inside of the barrel?

 

Completely making this up as I go along.... That might make the barleycorn pen above a particularly early model? Before they went to all metal barrels?

 

To go along with this,

1. My gold eyedropper with screw cap (and ring) is really just a traditional overlay on BHR.

2. I have a split lever metal pen, and this (in the Moak book) was the first year lever pen and then abandoned (because it is terrible, really). My split lever pen also has the black end of barrel and black section. It looks like the entire barrel is also BHR inside.

3. My other two metal pens have the full metal barrel, metal lining, and metal covered BHR sections.

 

My BHR overlay pens have slightly more domed cap tops like the SF1 and SF2 (even though those have levers......)

The lever metal pens are more like the SF200, SF230, etc line with the truly flat top.

 

All four of these pens are MT New York.

 

 

Incidentally, the Wahl metal pens are a single layer of gold filled metal. The Swan pens have an inner metal liner that seems to be soldered to the end of the barrel on the inside near the threads. So I can get dents out of a Wahl, but I cannot un-ding a Swan.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Greenie

[HalloweenHJB]

Now this is interesting in the typical FPN way.

That beautiful Barleycorn lever model appears to be a gold overlay on BHR. Is it rubber all the way up the inside of the barrel?

 

Completely making this up as I go along.... That might make the barleycorn pen above a particularly early model? Before they went to all metal barrels?

 

To go along with this,

1. My gold eyedropper with screw cap (and ring) is really just a traditional overlay on BHR.

2. I have a split lever metal pen, and this (in the Moak book) was the first year lever pen and then abandoned (because it is terrible, really). My split lever pen also has the black end of barrel and black section. It looks like the entire barrel is also BHR inside.

3. My other two metal pens have the full metal barrel, metal lining, and metal covered BHR sections.

 

My BHR overlay pens have slightly more domed cap tops like the SF1 and SF2 (even though those have levers......)

The lever metal pens are more like the SF200, SF230, etc line with the truly flat top.

 

All four of these pens are MT New York.

 

 

Incidentally, the Wahl metal pens are a single layer of gold filled metal. The Swan pens have an inner metal liner that seems to be soldered to the end of the barrel on the inside near the threads. So I can get dents out of a Wahl, but I cannot un-ding a Swan.

 

 

Excellent information! Thanks for the view of your collection!

[Greenie]

Halloween -

 

You pen in the original post is just perfect and gorgeous. The lack of flaws made you doubt the material I think. The total lack of metal loss on the section is unusual. And Swan pens commonly have some pitting or corrosion on the levers.

 

In case you didn't know just how outstanding your example of the pen is, look at this worn version currently on ebay

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GOLD-FILLED-MABIE-TODD-SWAN-FOUNTAIN-PEN-WITH-14K-GOLD-NIB-/381552421373?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276

[Cob]

Yes my pen is BHR with a gold-filled sleeve; you can see the threaded portion of the barrel in the photo.

 

Cob

[HalloweenHJB]

I decided to ink up the Swan and get a feel for the nib.

 

 

It's not as flexible as I would expect for the time period, and it even has a bit of a look and feel of a stub.

 

See what I mean?