Confused About Dip Pens

[GMYoussef]

Hello all,

I've been into fountain pens for a little more than a year now (still a novice compared to many of you), and I love them, but I've recently found myself wanting to stretch into dip pens. Maybe it's the idea of versatility when it comes to nibs and line variation, or maybe it's simply the fact that Tolkien was an avid dip pen user, but I can't shake the urge to try them out for myself. That being said, I've found it extremely more difficult to begin my journey into dip pens than I did when starting out in fountain pens. There are numerous things I don't understand, and I can't seem to find answers for. I know there are many dip pen users on here, and I was wondering if you could help me (and anyone else who may find the same things confusing) with the questions I can't seem to answer. First, are there still dip pen nib manufacturers, and if so why do people seem to only recommend vintage nibs like Esterbrook? Are all dip pen nibs the same size (as in will they fit on all dip pen holders), or do you need a holder from a specific company to use their nibs? Why are some nibs so cheap? Do they not last long? I've noticed holders range dramatically in price, are the lower priced ones as effective as the higher priced ones? And lastly, what is a good starting holder/nib combination, and where is a good place to purchase nibs and holders? Perhaps I'm alone on this and simply not thinking this through enough, or maybe I'm just horrible at finding information, but I just seem lost on this topic! Thank you very much in advance for the help!

[balson]

i had to use dip pens in school. most dip pens use the same size. there is a smaller modern dip pen size that uses a different holder and has nibs shaped roughly like the parker 51 nibs but its unlikely you will encounter that one or nibs that use it.

 

the main reason why dip pen nibs fail is either from rust or damage. they are designed to be disposable so if the nib breaks or rusts its easy enough to replace. most of my dip pen nibs seem to end up getting destroyed when i carry them around. dip pens do not have a cap so there is nothing to protect them during transport. removing the nib helps but even in when the nibs are in a box they still manage to rattle around and get bent out of shape.

 

i think vintage dip pen holders and nibs are recommended because they are cheaper and in some cases perform better. i have seen modern sets of the holder and the nibs from anywhere from $12-20 and you should be able to get a vintage equivalent set for around $5 from a flea market.

 

most holders are the same with the exception of retractable dip pen holders. they made a ton of really ornate ones in the victorian era, some of which even have a mechanical pencil built in. my favorite retractable dip pen would be this one from the eagle pencil company called "arrow". with a simple pop of a button in the back the holder and nib pop out and its ready to write. you need to wipe your nib with a paper towel when you are done writing but that step is especially critical with a retractable nib because the nib can get glued to the inside from the shellac in the ink.

[GMYoussef]

Wow, what an interesting pen! Thank you for all the information. Is there a certain website you recommend for buying holders and/or nibs?

[GMYoussef]

I found a holder for about 50 cents, and some nibs here: http://www.dickblick.com/products/speedball-standard-point-dip-pen-nibs/#items but I'm not sure as to the quality. I searched ebay as someone had previously recommended, but I couldn't seem to find anything except for bulk packages

[balson]

dick blick usually has quite modestly priced art supplies. their black cat india ink is an especially good deal. i think you can find a better deal on nibs and a holder at your local flea market though. most of the vintage dip pens i have gotten have just been extra stuff thrown in with pen lots.

[linearM]

I don't know exactly what you are looking for in a pen holder, something inexpensive or something a little more expensive. I have purchased a couple of beautiful pen holders from dippens.net. The holders are made from some very interesting woods and not all that costly. They also carry a nice variety of nibs.

 

Another source of both nibs and holders as well as books which might clarify things for you is: www.johnnealbooks.com. Their hard copy catalog is very helpful and descriptive.

Edited June 6, 2014 by linearM

[Mickey]

It would help if we knew whether you intended to learn a particular hand, e.g., Copperplate, Spencerian, and Italic, or just play around in the mud, as it were. A straight holder would be fine for Black letter, Humanist, Uncial, Italic, or mud play, whereas on oblique holder is highly recommended (nearly de rigueur) for Copperplate, Spencerian, or Engrosser's Script. The nibs are profoundly different, too. So, figure out where you want to go and we'll have a better chance of pointing you in the correct direction.

[Wolverine1]

I have 2 dip-pens made by our fellow FPN member Steve Engen, at www.dippens.net

Check out John Neal Booksellers in North Carolina, they have a great selection of dip-pen holders, dip-pen inks, and nibs that all kinds that you can put on your dip-pen holder. Best of luck.

[GMYoussef]

I don't know exactly what you are looking for in a pen holder, something inexpensive or something a little more expensive. I have purchased a couple of beautiful pen holders from dippens.net. The holders are made from some very interesting woods and not all that costly. They also carry a nice variety of nibs.

 

Another source of both nibs and holders as well as books which might clarify things for you is: www.johnnealbooks.com. Their hard copy catalog is very helpful and descriptive.

 

I'm looking for a more inexpensive thing to start off with, just something to get me into the field. I'll check out dippens.net, and thank you for the links!

 

It would help if we knew whether you intended to learn a particular hand, e.g., Copperplate, Spencerian, and Italic, or just play around in the mud, as it were. A straight holder would be fine for Black letter, Humanist, Uncial, Italic, or mud play, whereas on oblique holder is highly recommended (nearly de rigueur) for Copperplate, Spencerian, or Engrosser's Script. The nibs are profoundly different, too. So, figure out where you want to go and we'll have a better chance of pointing you in the correct direction.

As of now I was just planning on some mud play, and perhaps learning Italic so I was going to go with a straight holder. Copperplate and Spencerian seem like beasts I should save for when I've gotten used to dip pens

 

I have 2 dip-pens made by our fellow FPN member Steve Engen, at www.dippens.net

Check out John Neal Booksellers in North Carolina, they have a great selection of dip-pen holders, dip-pen inks, and nibs that all kinds that you can put on your dip-pen holder. Best of luck.

Yet another suggestion for dippens.net, it must be lovely, thanks for the suggestion!

[dcwaites]

There are two sorts of dip-pen writing, and different nibs, inks and holders to go with them.

 

First, there is normal writing - letters, notes, draft documents, etc. For this type of writing there are many models of nibs available, but they are mostly vintage. There are a couple of manufacturers of modern writing nibs, D Leonardt is one, and Hunt, now made by Speedball, is another.

 

These are some different types of writing nibs.

They take a normal pen holder that you can find in many arts and crafts shops. You can use normal fountain pen inks, but you may need to dilute them substantially to work properly. I have found that the best inks to start with would be Sheaffer Skrip Blue and Black, and Noodler's Black.

 

As for a modern nib, see if the shop that sells you the holder can get you the Speedball Hunt 512 nibs as well.

 

The second type of writing is calligraphy. There are many different types of nibs, depending on the style of calligraphy you are doing. There are a number of manufactures of these types of nibs, including D.Leonardt, Brause, Manuscript (a cheaper line by D.Leonardt, I believe?), and Speedball, amongst others. Depending on your needs, you may need a straight holder (as above) or an oblique one. Inks for this type of writing can be either carbon-based (India Ink - Higgins, Winsor & Newton, Speedball and others) or acrylic coloured inks, made by Winsor & Newton, Jacquard, Derivan and others.

 

Dip pens have no tipping, and therefore the nib tip wears relatively quickly. If you are using one every day for writing, you can expect it to only last a few weeks. However some designs of calligraphy nib will last several years because they have a large, flat tip. The main killer of dip pen nibs, though is probably rust if you don't use a pen regularly.

 

Anyway, go browse your local Arts/Crafts shops. As well I have seen dip pen supplies in some stationers as well as Scrapbooking supply shops.

[Gloucesterman]

Jet pens has dip pen nibs as well as nib holders. The specialized places like John Neal and Dick Blick are excellent choices as well. BTW, no affiliations!!

 

Here is another place to check out - http://www.nycentralart.com/. They have an online catalog that has some good information.

 

I think the big thing is to get started (can be done cheaply) and play around a bit before you start spending "lots" of money. As mentioned above dip pens don't have any tipping on them so they do wear out more quickly BUT that does not mean fast unless you are doing a lot of writing and/or the paper is more abrasive than normal.

 

Get started, play around (you can use FP ink) and see how you like it.

 

Enjoy and give yourself time to practice before you start judging yourself critically.

[legume]

The best way to learn about dip pens is to just go ahead and try a bunch. I bought my first supplies from johnnealbooks.com but they've never been the cheapest and I've noticed that they increased their shipping costs lately. Still, you should check out the site for descriptions of the nibs they carry. I've recently been buying from paperinkarts.com and they have an excellent selection as well at a cheaper price overall.

There are stiff pointed nibs for regular monoline writing and there are pointed and broad-edged nibs for Calligraphy. Just buy a few of them at a time and try them all. The Leonardt Principal EF and Gillott 303 are two of the best pointed nibs for Spencerian or Copperplate. I also enjoy the Zebra G, Hiro No. 700, and Brause 511. Brause Banzug and Mitchell Roundhand are good broad-edged nibs.

As for holders, there are two types, straight and oblique. There are also different types of mechanisms that hold the nib in place. I prefer cork tipped straight holders and bought this lot of vintage holders.

Oblique holders are a bit more complicated and matters more that you get a good one. It's good to try a bunch of these too. They can be custom made and cost $100+ but quality tops off at around $50 with Michael Sull's holders and the like. I really like my Buddy Blackwell ($40) from John Neal. If you don't want to spend so much at first, just make sure to get a holder with an adjustable brass flange. The Century Oblique ($20) is a popular starter holder. The rosewood hourglass oblique ($41) from Paper and Ink Arts is popular and so is the Zanerian oblique ($35). Artisan holders from Michael Sull or Bill Lily is the next step up. If you really want to go crazy, you can buy from the Yoke Pen Company or other artisans on Etsy.

 

Edit: some links to check out

John Neal Bookseller, broad edged nibs, pointed nibs, straight holders, oblique holders

Paper and Ink Arts

Some information about nibs and holders from a comic artist

Information on modern oblique holders

This artist uses dip pens often

 

Oh, as for inks I like just using fountain pen inks but McCaffery's Penman inks and Doc Martin's are popular.

 

Here are some pictures of my nibs, just to show the different types

Edited June 7, 2014 by legume

[Cryptos]

There are a few retired gents here who have wood turning as a hobby. I did wonder about getting a cheap Speedball, hacking out the clutch rings and asking one of them to craft a new holder out of some interesting timber. Local woods being stuff like Rimu and Kauri, with beautiful grain. Not sure if the holder has to have specific length or balance to work properly. Anyone have any suggestions along those lines?

[sharonspens]

https://www.papierplume.com/product-catalogue/pens/dipping-pens.html

 

Papier Plume in New Orleans also carries dip pens, with some $10 ones for beginners and some $$ ones if you get into it and want an elegant quill on your desk.

[UDog]

Shelby Foote wrote 3 million words in his lifetime with a dip pen.

[Mickey]

Shelby Foote wrote 3 million words in his lifetime with a dip pen.

 

Many of them with Esterbrook 313 Probate nibs. I believe he bought a case of them for a veritable song.

[Paddler]

A new nib must be prepared properly or it won't write well. New nibs come with a coating that prevents rust. You have to remove that coating. Paint thinner on a cotton swab usually works well. Dishwashing detergent and a rinse can do it. Dry the nib and then lick it on both sides - not a juicy lick, just a lick. Then dip the pen in ink. The object of the whole exercise is to get the ink to smoothly coat the nib surface, front and back. If the ink beads up on the surface or doesn't coat evenly, the nib is not clean enough, or you forgot to lick it; start over.

 

Many nibs are very scratchy when new. You can use the nib smoothing techniques and materials that are used to smooth fountain pen nibs.

 

As a nib wears, the point wears itself flat and forms sharp edges. The edges tend to catch on the paper and make writing tetchy and tedious. A gentle swipe on a Hard Arkansas sharpening stone will remove the sharp edges and make the nib usable again.

[disillusion]

I'm only an amateur but I've found these articles from IAMPETH helpful.

 

 

Tips on Nibs

A Look at Fine & Flexible Nibs, Bob Hurford*
A Look at Fine & Not-So-Flexible Nibs, Bob Hurford*
Choosing the Right Nib, Bob Hurford*
Crow Quill Pens, Bob Hurford*
Nibs for Monoline Writing, Bob Hurford*
When A Good Nib is Too Big for the Penholder, Bob Hurford*
Leornardt's Principal is the New Principality, Bob Hurford*

[ac12]

My responses below >

 

First, are there still dip pen nib manufacturers, and if so why do people seem to only recommend vintage nibs like Esterbrook?

> Yes, at least in England and Japan.

> If you find a nib you really like, you tend to stick to them, even if there is a decent modern nib. And you buy a LOT of them, to keep you going for a while, because they will wear out.

> And some people just think the older nibs are better.

 

Are all dip pen nibs the same size (as in will they fit on all dip pen holders), or do you need a holder from a specific company to use their nibs?

> No.

> There are many different sizes. And some are close in size, just slightly larger/smaller. Some nib holders are more acommodating in being able to handle different nibs that are close in size. But you will have to get a different holder for the nibs that are much larger or smaller. Crowquill is a much smaller size nib that requires its own holder.

> When you buy the pen and nibs, ask the seller if the nib will fit in the holder, and if not, what holders will the nib fit.

 

Why are some nibs so cheap? Do they not last long?

> The old economics rule of "Supply and demand."

> The nibs that are in highest demand and smallest availability will get driven up in price.

> Some nibs get a mythical reputation, so many wants to get that, thinking the nib will magically let them write beautifully. They seem to forget that the tool is only 10% of the solution, the writer is biggest variable at 80-90%. Also some of these nibs are VERY hard to use, because they are really sharp/pointy.

> Some nibs are "unknowns," so they may be very good, but do not have the reputation of the other nibs. I've seen French and Russian nibs, that may be good, but I can't find any write-ups/reviews of them.

> Dip pen nibs are disposable items, they are meant to be replaced when they wear out. How fast they wear depends on the writer and how much writing is done. A pro might wear his nib out in less than a day, whereas that same nib might take me 4 months to wear out.

 

I've noticed holders range dramatically in price, are the lower priced ones as effective as the higher priced ones?

> IMHO YES.

> Holders are very simple, especially the straight holders. Things become more complicated and expensive when you go to the oblique holders.

> For STRAIGHT holders, I use the very cheap less than $2 plastic Speedball straight holder, and it does just fine. I also have hand made wood holder $15 that looks real nice, but does not function much better than the $2 Speedball holder.

> The OBLIQUE holders is where the real price difference comes in. Part is because of the metalwork for holding the nib in the offset position. But part is simply the artistic work of the pen maker. Prices range from the $2 Speedball oblique to well over $100 for custom oblique holders. I use a plastic $13 Peerless Oblique, and it does just fine for me. Others like the wood $20 Century Oblique holder.

> However, you need to verify with the seller the holder will fit the nib that you plan to use. Some holders, such as Speedball, is made for only one size nib. John Neil has some holders pre-sized for specific nibs, so you don't have to adjust the nib holder.

 

And lastly, what is a good starting holder/nib combination, and where is a good place to purchase nibs and holders?

> As was mentioned, straight or oblique holder is a starting point.

> Based on your "in the mud" response, I think a straight holder. I've used the cheap Speedball plastic holder (less than $2), and it does just fine for me. The wood holders are nice, and have a nice feel. Some of the wood holders also have a clutch that will hold slightly different size nibs. In fact the straight holders are so cheap that I would get a couple of them, just to see what feels better in YOUR hand.

http://www.paperinkarts.com/calligraphy-pens-straight-pen-holders.html

 

> As for nibs

http://www.paperinkarts.com/calligraphy-pens-nibs.html

> Personally I use the Nikko G nib as my standard nib. It is chrome plated, so will last longer than unplated nibs. And it has a little bit of flex. Since nibs are considered disposable, I would get at least 2 nibs to start with, better yet get 5.

http://www.paperinkarts.com/calligraphy-pens-nibs-nikko.html

> I also use an old vintage bowl nib for general writing, as I can write with it like a fountain pen. And it also has a little bit of flex.

> If you want to play with a flex nib, the Hiro 41 is a good nib. And best of all, for $0.60 it is a great deal. It is not plated, so you need to clean and dry the nib after each time you use it. This is a really flexible nib, so you need to be gentle with it or you could spring the nib.

http://www.paperinkarts.com/hiro41.html

> The other guys will have to advise you on the italic nibs, as I have not gotten there yet. I'm using my Sheaffer calligraphy fountain pen, cuz it is easier for me at this stage.

 

> I use Higgins Eternal ink. It is a good ink to learn with, and it cleans up with water. $3.80 for 2.5oz bottle at PI&A. I got mine at my local Micheal's craft store.

http://www.paperinkarts.com/etrnal.html

> I also use Speedball acrylic ink when I want color. I got mine at my local Michael's Craft store.

http://www.paperinkarts.com/spdlrg.html

 

I hope I answered your questions.

 

gud luk

Edited June 7, 2014 by ac12

[Gloucesterman]

I'm only an amateur but I've found these articles from IAMPETH helpful.

 

+1 on IAMPETH site. Excellent instructional videos as well. Also check out YouTube for videos.