Parker Vacumatic Sizes ?

[JotterAddict62]

Greetings All,

 

I have the Parker Vacumatic book, but still confused on the size reference of the pens. Deb, standard, max, major, oversize max.

Could someone point me to a web sight or a post to lay to rest my confusion.

 

Thanks to all that help in this quest.

 

Ken

Edited May 23, 2014 by JotterAddict62

[Beechwood]

http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/profiles/vac.htm

[algabatz]

Here you will find images with a ruler in inches and millimeters as well as comparisons between generations and colours:

Almost every Vac is represented.

 

http://parkercollector.com/vacumatic.html

 

/Tony

[JotterAddict62]

Thanks. I do have these two sights bookmarked ,I must have not dug deep enough to find the information.

I must see my eye doctor must be two years now.

It was the diameter that was confusing me. Is it the diameter of the cap that you measure to get the 12 mm , 14mm or 15mm for the measurement ?

 

Ken

Edited May 23, 2014 by JotterAddict62

[Florida Blue]

  On 5/23/2014 at 2:57 PM, JotterAddict62 said:

 

It was the diameter that was confusing me. Is it the diameter of the cap that you measure to get the 12 mm , 14mm or 15mm for the measurement ?

 

Ken

 

Ken, I would think those would be barrel measurements.

 

The lengths can be somewhat confusing as they varied even within the same model.

[inkstainedruth]

  On 5/23/2014 at 11:44 PM, Florida Blue said:

 

Ken, I would think those would be barrel measurements.

 

The lengths can be somewhat confusing as they varied even within the same model.

Also confusing is that they tended to change the names of models and sizes over the course of the Vac lifespan. So I have what I *think* are two Debutantes and a Vac Major -- but since one of the Debs is a double jeweled model -- *and* missing the cap jewel -- measuring that pen is a somewhat hit or miss proposition; so I'm not 100% certain....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Florida Blue]

  On 5/23/2014 at 11:59 PM, inkstainedruth said:

Also confusing is that they tended to change the names of models and sizes over the course of the Vac lifespan. So I have what I *think* are two Debutantes and a Vac Major -- but since one of the Debs is a double jeweled model -- *and* missing the cap jewel -- measuring that pen is a somewhat hit or miss proposition; so I'm not 100% certain....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

With Debutantes and Sub. Debutantes the cap bands can be helpful indicators. The Debutante had a fancy chevron cap band (like this >>><<< vs. the Major which had v∧v∧v∧) and the Sub. Deb had a smooth one. Earlier Debutantes also had two-tone nibs.

[inkstainedruth]

  On 5/24/2014 at 12:09 AM, Florida Blue said:

 

With Debutantes and Sub. Debutantes the cap bands can be helpful indicators. The Debutante had a fancy chevron cap band (like this >>><<< vs. the Major which had v∧v∧v∧) and the Sub. Deb had a smooth one. Earlier Debutantes also had two-tone nibs.

I'll have to look at the cap bands -- don't remember what they look like (all three pens are currently upstairs). The Silver Pearl Major is currently unlinked, and the Azure Blue Deb has De Atramentis Red Roses in it.

The Shadow Wave has whatever was still in the feed. I don't think it was taking in liquid when I tested it -- although something blue or blue-black did come out when the nib was dipped in distilled water -- so it's going to probably need a new diaphragm in addition to a replacement jewel (and it possibly also has a crack in the cap ). I may have been hasty when sending in positive feedback on the transaction because the seller didn't mention the missing jewel -- (although, admittedly, I didn't think to ask for pix). OTOH, another potential bidder was told that the seller didn't find any cracks when asked about what looked like one in a photo; but when I run my finger around the cap it kinda feels like one.

Need to double check the date codes on all three pens, as well.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[penmanila]

here's a quick-and-dirty shot of some of my green vacs that i took some time ago to show different models and sizes:

 

 

Left to right: a wide-banded Oversize, a star-clip Senior Maxima, a true Slender Maxima, a Standard, a Streamlned Standard, a double-jewel Major, a Junior, a single-jewel Major, a Debutante.

[JotterAddict62]

Thanks all on the info.

One thought, you see I like to analyze things & problem solve. Now when Parker was cutting the rod stock to make the pen barrels, cap, & blind caps I wonder if there were tolerances for the parts? That is why length of pens of have a wide range. One the other hand they used up all the rod stock to make any size part so they did not have that much wasted material. Raw materials cost money and to throw money out in the trash in the 1930's would be stupid.

 

Just thinking what I would do if I was in charge.

 

Ken

[inkstainedruth]

Well I pulled out the two smaller Vacs last night. The Shadow Wave has the the chevron cap band, and a date code of 9 with two dots; not sure, given that it's a double jeweled model, whether it's a 2nd quarter 1939 -- did they make Vacs as late as 1949, or had they pretty much shifted production to 51s by then? The Azure Blue Pearl has a narrower -- and plain -- band (about 3/4 the width as that on the Shadow Wave) and a date code of 7 with 2 dots (given that Azure is a later color on Vacs I'm guess 2nd quarter 1947 rather than 2nd quarter 1937. Additionally, the Azure appears to have a gold-toned clip, while the Shadow Wave has a silver-tone (presumably Lusterloy) clip; however, the clips appear to be identical otherwise, being the shorter non-Blue Diamond style Arrow clip (the cap band on the Azure is also gold-tone -- there aren't any hallmarks -- like there on the cap for one of my 51s -- so I presuming that these are *not* gold-filled ). Like I said before, I *think* they'd be the same length it the cap jewel on the Shadow Wave wasn't missing.

I've now just pulled out the Silver Pearl Major. It has alternating slanted lines and triangles of slanted lines on the band (which, incidentally do not go all the way around the band -- would this be a place to put engraving, like initials?), but is wider: nearly 4 mm, and twice the width of that on the Azure. It has a longer (also probably Lusterloy) clip and findings, but the clip on it is a Blue Diamond. It has a date code of 6 with what I think are three dots, but look more like dashes, (the ones on either side of the number are vertical). I'm not sure if it's a '36 or a '46 (was presuming the latter, but could be wrong).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

edited for typos

Edited May 24, 2014 by inkstainedruth

[ANM]

Double jeweled vacs were made in 1939 but not in 49. Vacumatics were phased out in 1948. P 51's were introduced in the US market in late 1940 so both Vacs and '51's' were in simultaneous production for a time.

 

edited to add Vacumatics were produced in Canada until 1953 but any made in 1949 would have been single jeweled.

Edited May 24, 2014 by ANM

[algabatz]

  On 5/23/2014 at 2:57 PM, JotterAddict62 said:

Thanks. I do have these two sights bookmarked ,I must have not dug deep enough to find the information.

I must see my eye doctor must be two years now.

It was the diameter that was confusing me. Is it the diameter of the cap that you measure to get the 12 mm , 14mm or 15mm for the measurement ?

 

Ken

Yes, measured over the widest part, usually over the cap bands.

I see I have forgot to post pictures of the 3rd generation, with the rounded tassies. Coming up.

/Tony

[JotterAddict62]

  On 5/24/2014 at 7:29 PM, algabatz said:

Yes, measured over the widest part, usually over the cap bands.

I see I have forgot to post pictures of the 3rd generation, with the rounded tassies. Coming up.

/Tony

Inside dia. or outside dia.?

[Florida Blue]

  On 5/24/2014 at 4:39 PM, inkstainedruth said:

Well I pulled out the two smaller Vacs last night. The Shadow Wave has the the chevron cap band, and a date code of 9 with two dots; not sure, given that it's a double jeweled model, whether it's a 2nd quarter 1939 -- did they make Vacs as late as 1949, or had they pretty much shifted production to 51s by then? The Azure Blue Pearl has a narrower -- and plain -- band (about 3/4 the width as that on the Shadow Wave) and a date code of 7 with 2 dots (given that Azure is a later color on Vacs I'm guess 2nd quarter 1947 rather than 2nd quarter 1937. Additionally, the Azure appears to have a gold-toned clip, while the Shadow Wave has a silver-tone (presumably Lusterloy) clip; however, the clips appear to be identical otherwise, being the shorter non-Blue Diamond style Arrow clip (the cap band on the Azure is also gold-tone -- there aren't any hallmarks -- like there on the cap for one of my 51s -- so I presuming that these are *not* gold-filled ). Like I said before, I *think* they'd be the same length it the cap jewel on the Shadow Wave wasn't missing.

I've now just pulled out the Silver Pearl Major. It has alternating slanted lines and triangles of slanted lines on the band (which, incidentally do not go all the way around the band -- would this be a place to put engraving, like initials?), but is wider: nearly 4 mm, and twice the width of that on the Azure. It has a longer (also probably Lusterloy) clip and findings, but the clip on it is a Blue Diamond. It has a date code of 6 with what I think are three dots, but look more like dashes, (the ones on either side of the number are vertical). I'm not sure if it's a '36 or a '46 (was presuming the latter, but could be wrong).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

edited for typos

 

A few points to make.

 

ANM is right that US production of Vacs ended in 1948 and continued in Canada until at least 1953. Although Canadian-made Vacs with dates codes into the early 1960s have shown up.

 

Your Azure Blue Pearl Vac sounds like a Sub. Debutante from your description. Your Shadow Wave pen is a "Junior Debutante," which was part of the Junior range of Vacumatics despite its fancier chevron cap band.

 

The gold trim on Parker Vacumatics was gold filled and not gold plated or gold toned. The silver colored trim was chrome plated.

 

I hope this helps.

[penmanila]

hi, ken--just to make it a bit clearer for all, when people (vac nuts like me) refer to a "wide range" in the length of the pens, this really means across specific models (say, between an oversize at 5-3/8" and a debutante or a slender at 4-5/8"). that said, there could be slight differences in length within the same model--say, a 1943 vac major might be a millimeter longer or shorter than the same pen beside it--because of threading, poorly set nibs, etc.

 

what's confusing about vacs is that the same name--say "major--was applied to essentially two different pens, so that a 1939 double-jeweled "long" major (5-1/4") is a very different pen from a 1945 single-jeweled major (5"). but they're both majors--go figure!

 

there are also rare, esoteric models such as the 5" "minimax" with the senior maxima's wide cap band and the longish "1.5th generation"standard but these again, are oddities.

 

of course, as you suggest, it may have also been more economical to have had all these different sizes to be able to use up whatever they had for whatever part.

 

 

  On 5/24/2014 at 3:14 PM, JotterAddict62 said:

Thanks all on the info.

One thought, you see I like to analyze things & problem solve. Now when Parker was cutting the rod stock to make the pen barrels, cap, & blind caps I wonder if there were tolerances for the parts? That is why length of pens of have a wide range. One the other hand they used up all the rod stock to make any size part so they did not have that much wasted material. Raw materials cost money and to throw money out in the trash in the 1930's would be stupid.

 

Just thinking what I would do if I was in charge.

 

Ken

Edited May 25, 2014 by penmanila

[inkstainedruth]

  On 5/24/2014 at 9:45 PM, Florida Blue said:

 

A few points to make.

 

ANM is right that US production of Vacs ended in 1948 and continued in Canada until at least 1953. Although Canadian-made Vacs with dates codes into the early 1960s have shown up.

 

Your Azure Blue Pearl Vac sounds like a Sub. Debutante from your description. Your Shadow Wave pen is a "Junior Debutante," which was part of the Junior range of Vacumatics despite its fancier chevron cap band.

 

The gold trim on Parker Vacumatics was gold filled and not gold plated or gold toned. The silver colored trim was chrome plated.

 

I hope this helps.

I measured the Azure Blue Pearl when I got it and from the length I'm pretty sure I had a Debutante (I looked at both parkerpens.net and Richard Binder's site, and I still get confused). What's the difference between that and a Sub-Deb? And how does a Junior Debutante compare size-wise to a "regular" Junior (is a Junior what later gets called a Major or a Slender Major?)

My camera has been acting wonky recently; I may try to take photos with the iPhone of all three pens, and have a ruler in the picture so people can compare the pens). But that is for tomorrow or Tuesday.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Florida Blue]

  On 5/26/2014 at 1:40 AM, inkstainedruth said:

I measured the Azure Blue Pearl when I got it and from the length I'm pretty sure I had a Debutante (I looked at both parkerpens.net and Richard Binder's site, and I still get confused). What's the difference between that and a Sub-Deb? And how does a Junior Debutante compare size-wise to a "regular" Junior (is a Junior what later gets called a Major or a Slender Major?)

My camera has been acting wonky recently; I may try to take photos with the iPhone of all three pens, and have a ruler in the picture so people can compare the pens). But that is for tomorrow or Tuesday.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

A Debutante and Sub. Debutante were the same size.

The Debutante had a chevron cap band, often had a two-tone nib and retailed for $8.75.

The Sub. Debutante had a plain cap band, a monotone nib and retailed for $5. It was part of the Junior line of pens.

 

I was wrong about your Shadow Wave before. In 1938, Parker renamed the Junior Debutante the Sub. Debutante (think of it as an economy version of the Debutante) and since yours is a 1939 model it is also a Sub. Debutante. Both pens are the same size and retailed for $5. The Shadow Wave Sub. Debutante had a chevron band whereas the laminated ringed versions had the plain band.

 

A Junior is the same size as a Major.

 

I hope this helps too. I know all these model names can get very confusing