The Truth About Oblique Nibs?

[fizzicist]

I don't see how the commonly stated purpose of oblique nibs can possibly be correct. In every description I have seen, the stated purpose is to accommodate the tendency of certain people to roll the pen (and therefore the nib) toward the left or right, not to achieve the effect obtained with a stub or italic nib (differentiated line width).

 

But as far as I can tell, it's nonsense.

 

I can understand that rolling the pen away from center lifts the slit off the paper, and therefore doesn't achieve the maximum flow of ink onto the paper. But that can just as easily happen with an oblique nib as with any other nib. The solution to the problem created by rolling the pen is to not roll the pen.

 

Do this experiment. Take a flat bladed screwdriver and hold it in your hand in the same way you would hold a pen, with the tip flat on the desk. Now roll it toward the left or right, and what happens? The tip is no longer flat on the desk. If you roll it toward the right (clockwise), the left side of the tip comes up off the desk. If you roll it toward the left, the right side comes up. If the tip were cut at an angle (in the same way that an oblique nib is shaped), there would still be a similar effect. There is only one position wherein the tip is flat on the desk across its full width. If you roll it toward the right or the left, the tip will no longer be flat on the desk.

 

Now, the tip of a flat bladed screwdriver is just an exaggerated case of a stub or italic nib. But the stated purpose of an oblique nib (allegedly) has nothing to do with stubness or italicness; it is only supposed to address the issue of rolling. Yet, as the experiment above demonstrates, rolling can just as easily occur with an oblique nib as with any other. The same thing is true of a round nib, which provides no differentiation in the line width at all. Rolling is still rolling. You can roll an oblique nib just as easily as a non-oblique nib.

 

I'm not saying that an oblique nib is useless, or that it doesn't accomplish anything. Actually, it does. Consider an oblique italic nib that's flat on the paper. Any oblique italic nib will give the fattest line width when it writes in a direction perpendicular to the width of the tip, and the thinnest line width when it writes in a direction parallel to the width of the tip. Those directions vary depending on whether the nib is a left oblique or right oblique. So, oblique nibs definitely change the character of the lines, and that tendency becomes more pronounced as nib width increases. But it has nothing to do with rolling, except maybe to the extent that an oblique stub or italic nib makes it more obvious that you've rolled the pen than with a round nib. But exactly the same is true of a non-oblique stub or italic nib of the same width. If you roll it, it's just as noticeable as rolling an oblique nib.

 

So, while oblique nibs do change the character of your writing (and that's a purely subjective choice you're entitled to make), they do not solve the problem of rolling the pen. The solution to the problem created by rolling the pen is simple: Don't roll the pen.

 

Or am I missing something?

Edited October 12, 2012 by fizzicist

[mirosc]

Two comments:

1) You should differentiate the historical rise of oblique nibs from the current thoughts about oblique nibs. In medieval times oblique nibs were used to create a certain way of line variation and weren't meant to "cure" a certain way of holding a pen. There's no such thing as "holding a pen wrong", but an italic or round or oblique nib results in different ways of writing. The angle of how wide and narrow lines appear on the paper just varies. Medieval writers were able to adjust their pen/hand positioning to the given angles of a nib.

 

2) These days you can often read that oblique nibs can help to make writing easier while rotating the nib. But - as your screwdriver experiment shows - it is very much depending on how much you rotate the nib and how big the angle is. Just like you have written: when you rotate the screwdriver one edge is lifted and one side is on the paper. Now you're cutting of your screwdriver just so much at this side (that still touches the paper) that the whole screwdriver is flat on the paper again. Look at it: it has an oblique angle - but that angle depends on how much you rotate the pen. Now you can write with it just like you were used before - but the line variation is different now, because you have changed the angle of writing. If you rotate the pen more or less you will have to change the oblique angle again.

 

Italic and oblique nibs do have different writing styles, that's what they were originally invented for. But in today's marketing we usually use oblique nibs when we want to adjust the pen to our way of holding a pen and not the way of holding a pen to the given nib.

 

Edit: that's the reason why I think oblique nibs have to be personalized very precisely if you want to "cure" your individual rotating with them. A fixed oblique angle (for example 15° or 30° like many companies offer it) is not making anything perfect. I got such a pen with 8.5° - which suits my style of holding this special pen perfectly.

Edited October 12, 2012 by mirosc

[Biber]

they do not solve the problem of rolling the pen.

 

Why is rolling a pen a problem?

[Bo Bo Olson]

Modern stiffer nibbed obliques help many who hold their pen canted.

According to my German wife that is the way they were taught to hold a pen.

 

Could well be then that is why there are so many semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex/'flexi' Oblique pre '66 German nibs.

 

I would not waste money on a modern oblique. I don't cant my nib unless I have an pre' 66 German oblique in my hand.

 

In a mix of both flexes mentioned, and with 15&30 degree grinds I have, OBB, OB, OM and OF nibs...some 12 (out of @ 50 pens), in some are doubles.

I like them they give me line variation.

 

May I suggest getting a Pelikan 140 with an OB nib. :notworthy1:

 

Then you will see what you wrote may have some sort of logic to it, but nothing to do with reality, which is often the case with logic and reality.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Bo Bo Olson

[Mickey]

You haven't missed anything, but I wouldn't bother resurrecting this discussion. It's been done to death. I know from personal experience. You might as well debate the shape of a Coke bottle on the Kalahari desert. This topic is so close to religion, the moderators should probably outlaw it along with discussions of the ink which shall not be named...

[fizzicist]

You haven't missed anything, but I wouldn't bother resurrecting this discussion. It's been done to death. I know from personal experience. You might as well debate the shape of a Coke bottle on the Kalahari desert. This topic is so close to religion, the moderators should probably outlaw it along with discussions of the ink which shall not be named...

Thanks for that, Mickey. I wasn't aware that I was treading on sanctified ground, but I can already see by the responses thus far that my OP didn't communicate.

 

I'll try a somewhat different approach, and then I'll drop it.

 

Here's what the nib on the paper is supposed to look like:

 

 

If the nib is shaped correctly, both lobes of the tip should be resting on the paper, as shown above. Images 1 and 3 show right and left oblique nibs, and image 2 shows a non-oblique nib. The only difference (if the tips are shaped correctly) is the angle of the hand that's holding them. Therefore, depending on the motion of that hand, the directionality of the line width differentiation will vary. But in each case, there is only one configuration of the pen (from the standpoint of roll) that will have both lobes of the tip resting equally on the paper. Rolling the pen left or right will raise one or the other, thereby raising or elevating the slit as well.

 

they do not solve the problem of rolling the pen.

 

Why is rolling a pen a problem?

In my OP, I specified that it's a problem in that rolling the pen raises the slit off the paper, thereby reducing the flow of ink onto the paper. If you want to reduce the flow of ink to the paper, then it's not a problem at all. But if rolling the pen is not a problem, then the reason for using an oblique nib is not to correct pen roll. It's for changing the character of the pen strokes...an effect that is a matter of personal preference. But the point is that there is no angle at which you can hold any pen that can cause a "problem" that cannot be corrected by simply rolling the pen so that the tip corresponds to one of the three images shown above.

 

Now, since it was never my intention to provoke a controversy, but rather to simply ask whether I'm missing something, I'll leave it there.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Semi-flex and flexi(maxi-semi-flex) obliques dance the twist and gives me a different but similar pattern than a stub or a CI.

 

Your theory has nothing to do with my pens.

 

Your theory is for modern pens....IMO. Big fat ball nibbed ones, not thinner 'iridium' sort of 'stubbish' pre'66 German ones.

 

Your picture does not show a the canted nib laying 'flat' to the paper. Run a 15 or 30 degree through the nib tip (the part that is ground away)...so it lays flat when canted.

 

Get your self a Pelikan 140 OB, and find out what I'm talking about.

I recommend folks avoiding modern oblique nibs.

[fizzicist]

Your theory has nothing to do with my pens.

It's not a theory; it's a discussion. Your assertion that the discussion doesn't apply to your pens is duly noted.

[JefferyS]

Pen rolling was necessary for early ballpoints, to avoid a gob of ink building up on one side. Pencil rolling is still necessary to avoid making a flat side. Neither of those applies to FPs for me. For me, left obliques move the angle towards my eyes.

[tonybelding]

We have indeed covered this ground, and I've put forth the same argument as fizzicist... I actually rather like oblique stubs, since they put the maximum line width more on the diagonal stroke, which is perfect for cursive writing (as opposed to calligraphy).

 

I've never understood the concept of a plain round oblique nib.

 

I mean, I sort of understand the argument that some have put forth -- that some people, for unexplained reasons, tend to cant their nib to the left or right on the page instead of orienting them properly, and that a special nib can be made to accommodate that habit. I guess what I can't figure out is why anybody who is able to orient their nib to the page (which is required to use almost any FP) would ever be better able to orient it at an arbitrary oblique angle rather than straight-on. It runs counter to my common sense.

[dali3464]

I may be completely missing the mark here, but I thought obliques were supposed to help rolling as shown in the following diagram (terribly sorry about quality, it took me 3 minutes to make ):

 

http://i.imgur.com/hXXfS.png

 

This operates on the assumption that the person holds their pen at a constant x degrees. I don't think that oblique nibs were meant to solve all angles of pen rolling, only that of a narrow range.

Edited October 13, 2012 by dali3464

[fizzicist]

...For me, left obliques move the angle towards my eyes.

See, now that seems like a perfectly reasonable preference to me. I take no exception whatsoever to any such preference. I can even see why it might be desirable, depending on the directionality of your pull/push strokes, and your cross strokes...In other words, if the effect it gives to the character of your penmanship is more pleasing than that of a non-oblique nib.

 

...I guess what I can't figure out is why anybody who is able to orient their nib to the page (which is required to use almost any FP) would ever be better able to orient it at an arbitrary oblique angle rather than straight-on...

That's exactly my point. I have no argument with anyone's preference for oblique nibs, but the only difference it makes is an aesthetic one. And I'm not minimizing or deprecating that aesthetic preference in any way, either. I just can't see how it has anything to do with a tendency to roll the pen. IF rolling the pen is a problem, then don't roll the pen.

 

Of course, if it's not a problem, then never mind.

[Silvermink]

Personally, I avoid rolling the pen by only using pens with clips.

[L Raydell Mundo]

Personally, I avoid rolling the pen by only using pens with clips.

 

:roflmho:

Wish you had warned me before that 180 degree turn!

[smk]

Two comments:

1) You should differentiate the historical rise of oblique nibs from the current thoughts about oblique nibs. In medieval times oblique nibs were used to create a certain way of line variation and weren't meant to "cure" a certain way of holding a pen. There's no such thing as "holding a pen wrong", but an italic or round or oblique nib results in different ways of writing. The angle of how wide and narrow lines appear on the paper just varies. Medieval writers were able to adjust their pen/hand positioning to the given angles of a nib.

 

2) These days you can often read that oblique nibs can help to make writing easier while rotating the nib. But - as your screwdriver experiment shows - it is very much depending on how much you rotate the nib and how big the angle is. Just like you have written: when you rotate the screwdriver one edge is lifted and one side is on the paper. Now you're cutting of your screwdriver just so much at this side (that still touches the paper) that the whole screwdriver is flat on the paper again. Look at it: it has an oblique angle - but that angle depends on how much you rotate the pen. Now you can write with it just like you were used before - but the line variation is different now, because you have changed the angle of writing. If you rotate the pen more or less you will have to change the oblique angle again.

 

Italic and oblique nibs do have different writing styles, that's what they were originally invented for. But in today's marketing we usually use oblique nibs when we want to adjust the pen to our way of holding a pen and not the way of holding a pen to the given nib.

 

Edit: that's the reason why I think oblique nibs have to be personalized very precisely if you want to "cure" your individual rotating with them. A fixed oblique angle (for example 15° or 30° like many companies offer it) is not making anything perfect. I got such a pen with 8.5° - which suits my style of holding this special pen perfectly.

 

100% spot on.

 

I'd like to add a tidbit to the last point about the customization of oblique nibs to individual hands. Arabic Calligraphy is done with left-oblique nibs and a number of strokes require the nib to be held such that a vertical stroke produces a thin line. In addition to that, a lot of nib manipulation takes place i.e. strokes start with the nib held one way and end with the nib in a different orientation.

 

The recommended angle of the cut is the angle made by the tips of the forefinger and middle finger of the right hand when extended. This cut produces an nib that is most natural for a right-handed scribe to use. I have seen it firsthand in my own studies and can vouch for the effectiveness of this technique - and that nibs cut at a higher or lower angle are not as easy to wield.

 

Salman

[torstar]

My Pelikan OBB writes just fine if I hold it without rolling, but I may as well be using a regular BB nib.

 

If i want the effect of the O I have to turn the nib.

[Mickey]

Two comments:

1) You should differentiate the historical rise of oblique nibs from the current thoughts about oblique nibs. In medieval times oblique nibs were used to create a certain way of line variation and weren't meant to "cure" a certain way of holding a pen. There's no such thing as "holding a pen wrong", but an italic or round or oblique nib results in different ways of writing. The angle of how wide and narrow lines appear on the paper just varies. Medieval writers were able to adjust their pen/hand positioning to the given angles of a nib.

 

2) These days you can often read that oblique nibs can help to make writing easier while rotating the nib. But - as your screwdriver experiment shows - it is very much depending on how much you rotate the nib and how big the angle is. Just like you have written: when you rotate the screwdriver one edge is lifted and one side is on the paper. Now you're cutting of your screwdriver just so much at this side (that still touches the paper) that the whole screwdriver is flat on the paper again. Look at it: it has an oblique angle - but that angle depends on how much you rotate the pen. Now you can write with it just like you were used before - but the line variation is different now, because you have changed the angle of writing. If you rotate the pen more or less you will have to change the oblique angle again.

 

Italic and oblique nibs do have different writing styles, that's what they were originally invented for. But in today's marketing we usually use oblique nibs when we want to adjust the pen to our way of holding a pen and not the way of holding a pen to the given nib.

 

Edit: that's the reason why I think oblique nibs have to be personalized very precisely if you want to "cure" your individual rotating with them. A fixed oblique angle (for example 15° or 30° like many companies offer it) is not making anything perfect. I got such a pen with 8.5° - which suits my style of holding this special pen perfectly.

 

100% spot on.

 

 

Sorry, I can't agree. There is a logical absurdity in the rolled pen, eccentric/unique/personal grip theory for obliques. (At least one.) Once the edge of the nib is soled to the paper, a wide range of rake angles is possible, nearly the same range as with a standard, italic nib. This range includes all rational orientations for an edged fountain pen, from as low as the feed will allow to near vertical. What is altered by obliquity and what can be customized is the relationship between that angle (the gripped pen barrel to the page) and the writing line, and thus to the geometry of the line, i.e., where the broadest and narrowest strokes lie relative to the writing line, and by extension the placement and the orientation of the paper relative to the writer's body. All other adjustments are not unique to oblique pens.

 

As for watching the nib or caring how it's oriented relative to the eye: if you're staring at the nib, how can you see where you're going? What about nibs like the Binder Italifine and other, where both side are to be used. You need to feel where the nib is. You can't steer by staring at it. Admire the thing when you take off the cap and then get about business.

 

As for rolling pens, once you've rolled 15 degrees, 30 degrees, or whatever, what is to keep you from continuing to roll? Nothing but common sense.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Mickey

[torstar]

It's just a freakin fountain pen with the nib slanted in order to enhance the effect of the down (or up) stroke.

 

Since when did this become a quantum physics problem?

 

Pick up the thing and write.

[mirosc]

Sorry, I can't agree.

Actually I don't see any differences to what I have meant. You are talking about what oblique nibs really do, I'm talking about what some writers want them to do.

 

Once the edge of the nib is soled to the paper, a wide range of rake angles is possible

Exactly, it's "possible". It should (!) be no problem at all for a writer to change any angle whatsoever and still keep the nib perfectly on the paper. Be it the rotation of the paper, the rotation of the hand, the angle of pen to table, the angle of hand/arm to the body or whatever we can think of. But that requires some skill if you want to write a lot.

But if you watch people writing they usually have exactly one way of paper orientation, nib orientation, holding angle, rotation angle. They usually don't adjust their way of writing to the nib or the way a script should look like, but expect that everything is adjusted to their own special way of how they are used to write.

 

What is altered by obliquity and what can be customized is the relationship between that angle (the gripped pen barrel to the page) and the writing line, and thus to the geometry of the line, i.e., where the broadest and narrowest strokes lie relative to the writing line, and by extension the placement and the orientation of the paper relative to the writer's body.

Theoretically you could also change the writing line - but only few are capable of writing exactly the same lettershapes in different writing directions, especially without changing the slope of the letters.

 

All other adjustments are not unique to oblique pens.

Yes. That was the reason why oblique nibs were invented in the first place - and why some people still use them: Because they know that they can achieve a certain look of their writing.

But what I'm trying to say is that today people/companies/marketing don't think of this anymore, but rather think of people who already hold their pen in a special way (which they don't change) and say: With that way of holding a pen the nib isn't properly soled on the paper, so let's cut at one side so that he doesn't have to change his way of holding the pen, but his nib is soled on the paper properly again.

Or in other words: Hand someone a screwdriver, let him hold it how he is used to hold a pen, let him touch a grinding wheel and as a result you will get a steep oblique angle with some people and with others a straight italic and with others everything in between. And then you could argue that oblique nibs are suited for those who hold their pens in a certain way.

That's the modern marketing point for oblique nibs - it's not about a certain line variation anymore, but to make people buy these pens, because they think it's made for their way of writing.

Cause and effect have simply switched.

 

My point was not to discuss what oblique nibs can do or can't do or how they change line variation. I think that's obvious and not really disputed.

[smk]

 

Sorry, I can't agree. There is a logical absurdity in the rolled pen, eccentric/unique/personal grip theory for obliques. (At least one.) Once the edge of the nib is soled to the paper, a wide range of rake angles is possible, nearly the same range as with a standard, italic nib. This range includes all rational orientations for an edged fountain pen, from as low as the feed will allow to near vertical. What is altered by obliquity and what can be customized is the relationship between that angle (the gripped pen barrel to the page) and the writing line, and thus to the geometry of the line, i.e., where the broadest and narrowest strokes lie relative to the writing line, and by extension the placement and the orientation of the paper relative to the writer's body. All other adjustments are not unique to oblique pens.

 

As for watching the nib or caring how it's oriented relative to the eye: if you're staring at the nib, how can you see where you're going? What about nibs like the Binder Italifine and other, where both side are to be used. You need to feel where the nib is. You can't steer by staring at it. Admire the thing when you take off the cap and then get about business.

 

As for rolling pens, once you've rolled 15 degrees, 30 degrees, or whatever, what is to keep you from continuing to roll? Nothing but common sense.

 

I do not believe, and I don't think Michael suggests it in his original post, that oblique nibs were invented to account for the rolling of the pen. I think it's a tool that is meant to make a specific task easier. The fact that the design of the nib also helps people who, for whatever reason, roll their pens is IMO not the reason for its existence.

 

I use oblique nibs for practicing Arabic Calligraphy which requires certain manipulations that would be pretty much impossible, or at least highly inconvenient, to do with a straight cut nib. I would use an oblique nib for and italic (or other broad-edged hand) if I wanted the horizontal strokes to produce thicker lines compared to vertical strokes.

 

If I held my pen a certain way that forced me to use a specialized writing instrument, and precluded using a whole bunch of other instruments, I would think seriously about fixing my grip.

 

In support of what you say, Brause Bandzung nibs come in two flavors - a slight right-oblique cut for right handed people and a slight left-handed cut for left-handed scribes. The slight cut is meant to make it easier to maintain the angle of the nib - especially in longer strokes. You don't have to rotate the nib one way or the other to benefit from the 'obliquenss'.

 

I suspect the three of us are saying the same thing in two different ways :-)

 

Salman