Is This An Ivory Dipping Pen, Or...?

[OakIris]

In my experience, ivory is never pure white, but then neither is bone. Just that bone is a purer not-white than ivory.

 

I'm still inclined to say bone.

I imagine you are right - pen2paper also said it was likely to be bone, since it was probably a souvenir from France. Fine with me!

 

I just wish I could figure out how to repair it so that I could use it. Oh well, it is nice to look at and wonder what it was like to have been able to write with it.

 

Holly

[jbb]

I just wish I could figure out how to repair it so that I could use it. Oh well, it is nice to look at and wonder what it was like to have been able to write with it.

 

Holly

As far as your pictures go I think you have everything you need but the actual nib to write with. Where do you get stuck when you do these steps below?

 

1. Screw the male threaded section into the female threaded section with the Stanhope lens.
   
2. Slide the ferrule over the other end of the male threaded section.
   
3. Insert a nib into the ferrule.
   

 

Do you own any dip nibs? Is the ferrule bent so you can't insert a nib?

Edited February 9, 2012 by jbb

[jbb]

Carved dip pen apart....

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7001/6843940259_1508ef8a54_b.jpg

 

Carved dip pen together....

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6843940397_13dab0e304_b.jpg

Edited February 9, 2012 by jbb

[pen2paper]

if we were sitting side by side, I could show you examples that would quickly define the difference between ivory, bone, nut, or vegetable ivory, horn, antler, compositions, natural rubber products, and synthetic polymers. Besides appearance, the feel in the hand, the weight, the scent are all different and give clues.

Look back at the striped celluloid button in the link above. Ivorine is an exaggerated striped ivory pattern in celluloid.

Both bone and ivory are off-white to aged creamy yellow. bone has uneven irregular marks, ivory very smooth, even stripes.

If ivory, the ferule was original to the piece it would be marked silver or gold.

Google: bone dip pens, and needle cases, you will see near identical pieces. (w/ stanhopes too).

If you Google ivory, you will see some of the same pieces misidentified.

now Google: Shibayama this is a piece I would have you examine under a loupe to clearly see fine ivory work.

Still, though I think it's bone, the turnings, and carving are nicely done.

jbb, now I get it! it unscrews to hold the ferule, and nib = travel dip pen.. I kept wondering why would it unscrew? the holes were too big to be a needle case. Pix = 1K words ; )

 

 

Edited February 9, 2012 by pen2paper

[raging.dragon]

It looks to me like the nipple (is that the right word?) the ferrule slides over is broken or perhaps missing from the OP's pen.

[jbb]

It looks to me like the nipple (is that the right word?) the ferrule slides over is broken or perhaps missing from the OP's pen.

I've wondered about that too but also wondered if there was enough there to support the ferrule.

[OakIris]

I just wish I could figure out how to repair it so that I could use it. Oh well, it is nice to look at and wonder what it was like to have been able to write with it.

 

Holly

As far as your pictures go I think you have everything you need but the actual nib to write with. Where do you get stuck when you do these steps below?

 

1. Screw the male threaded section into the female threaded section with the Stanhope lens.
   
2. Slide the ferrule over the other end of the male threaded section.
   
3. Insert a nib into the ferrule.
   

 

Do you own any dip nibs? Is the ferrule bent so you can't insert a nib?

When you screw the male end into the female end, the part of the pen that holds the ferrule is inside the body of the pen, unusable. I don't know what used to screw into the top of this section, where the broken threaded part is, but I don't think that it could have been another ferrule attachment. However, it might have been something like the object shown in this link: Stanhope letter opener and dip pen I am not sure that the section would have been strong enough for this though, as the threaded part is only about a quarter inch in length and pretty narrow, don't see how it would have supported a letter opener.

 

if we were sitting side by side, I could show you examples that would quickly define the difference between ivory, bone, nut, or vegetable ivory, horn, antler, compositions, natural rubber products, and synthetic polymers. Besides appearance, the feel in the hand, the weight, the scent are all different and give clues.

Look back at the striped celluloid button in the link above. Ivorine is an exaggerated striped ivory pattern in celluloid.

Both bone and ivory are off-white to aged creamy yellow. bone has uneven irregular marks, ivory very smooth, even stripes.

If ivory, the ferule was original to the piece it would be marked silver or gold.

Google: bone dip pens, and needle cases, you will see near identical pieces. (w/ stanhopes too).

If you Google ivory, you will see some of the same pieces misidentified.

now Google: Shibayama this is a piece I would have you examine under a loupe to clearly see fine ivory work.

Still, though I think it's bone, the turnings, and carving are nicely done.

jbb, now I get it! it unscrews to hold the ferule, and nib = travel dip pen.. I kept wondering why would it unscrew? the holes were too big to be a needle case. Pix = 1K words ; )

I did indeed google bone dip pen and found many examples, with Stanhope lenses, too, as you suggested. No wonder I couldn't find anything when I googled Stanhope ivory dip pen!

 

It could very well be a travel pen, with who knows what screwed into the broken threaded part at the top of the section where the ferrule is attached. Still, the pen would have only been about 1 inch long, not including the ferrule and nib, must have been pretty awkward to use. The bone dip pen in this link, however, also appears to be a travel pen, and it looks as if the pen section is pretty small, too: Souvenir bone dip pen Probably these pens were meant to be used by people with hands smaller than mine!

 

I don't think that gold coloured piece that I am calling the ferrule is original to the pen; the original ferrule must have screwed onto the bone - you can't really see it because of the poor quality of my photos, but the bone where the ferrule is does indeed have threads. I have tried to attach a nib to this metal piece, too, and it just doesn't hold it securely, but the metal is bent - perhaps if I reshape it a bit.... Of course, I need to find a vintage nib that will fit inside of the pen holder anyway, like the ones that jbb shows in the photo of her bone dip pen - the only "modern" ones I have tried are too wide to fit.

 

Holly

Edited February 9, 2012 by OakIris

[drwright]

Sorry to bring this thread back after over a year, but my brother found a dip pen that is just like the ones in this thread, and he was curious as to the value of the pen (he's not interested in pens, really, so I may do a trade with him for it, but we both have no idea what it's worth).

It has both a nib and pencil sides, and seems to be in great shape. I'm not sure what the material is, but it does seem like it's bone or ivory, or perhaps an early plastic? (though it doesn't feel right for that).

The nib says: Spencerian Pen No1, Ivison Phinney&Co, New York England

Here are some pictures

 

 

http://i40.tinypic.com/epjjaw.jpg

 

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/345k679.jpg

 

[schin]

I don't know about the value of the dip pen, but the Spencerian 1 is a good, pretty rare nib. It looks to be in good condition, you can get about $5 for it if sold individually. I'd keep it in the holder.

[Chthulhu]

Here's mine, acquired just a few days ago:

No nib, no Stanhope lens, and the main barrel is cracked all down the length of one side and partway down the other, following the grain of the material. No question in my mind that this is bone. The piece with the ferrule will reverse and post into the main barrel, but I don't want to stress the material. The little bit at the left is the remnant of something that has broken off, and the grain shows nicely under a loupe.

[OakIris]

For some reason I didn't see your reply until now, drwright. How cool that you have - or your brother has - a bone dip pen that is in good, working order! I don't know what the value of it would be, but you posted your question months ago so I am sure you have figured this out by now. I hope you traded him for it, or that he gave it to you; it is a keeper...

 

Too bad yours is damaged, Chthulhu. At least it has the ferrule; if you can find a nib that fits, and can fix the cracks - glue? silicone? tiny pins? I don't know what the proper restoration material should be - you will have a working antique dip pen.

 

Sadly, my damaged bone dip pen remains in one of my pen storage boxes. I was unable to find a ferrule that would fit so couldn't get it working. Love the fact that it has the Stanhope lens and that it was actually used by one of my "ancestors" so it is a keeper, too. At some point I will look for a ferrule and a nib again.....

 

Holly

Edited September 17, 2013 by OakIris

[Chthulhu]

Holly, I have considered using some gap-filling cyanoacrylic to at least stabilize the cracks, but for now I've just tucked the thing away where it won't be damaged further. Fitting a nib is no problem, if I ever come upon one of the proper age. :-)

[OakIris]

Sounds good, Mike. Hope you are able to repair it in the future so that you can use it. The nib is a problem for me, too, though not having a ferrule makes not having a nib a moot point! (No pun intended.) I had tried some of the modern dip pen nibs I had on hand just to see if they would fit in my dip pen and had no luck - they were too wide to fit in the body of the pen so that you could screw all the bits together. Since I don't have a ferrule, I didn't look any further for the correct sized nib. Are you looking for a nib of the "proper age" because those are the only ones that will fit, or just because you would like to have the pen as close to stock, so to speak, as possible?

 

Holly

[arrow king]

I believe part of the problem goes back to the ferrule or decorative sleeve over the ferrule. Anyway the thingy made of brass with a raised pattern of stars and dots. I have one of the same size, If you count there is an alternating pattern of 9 , 9 stars 8 dots, 8 stars 9 dots. Measures just under 2 inches as in your picture. Clearly from the same manufacturer . The ferrule that runs through mine adds another half inch it has curled hooks where the nib slides in and will take any size nib.

 

My dip with this pattern. sleeve is said to be hand carved figural wood, a bulldog head with a brass collar. circa 1865. Also has a ring to attach a chain.

After studying it I'm now thinking French Ivory:

French ivory is an early manmade material created to resemble expensive natural ivory. This faux ivory is made from celluloid, a cellulose and camphor thermoplastic dating to the 1860s, and widely used until the middle of the 20th century. It can be differentiated from natural ivory by its parallel lines rather than the crosshatched lines found in genuine ivory and by its lighter weight. French ivory can be molded easily, making it an ideal substance for a wide variety of items, including decorative dresser sets, handles for flatware, hair accessories and gaming pieces. Although it has some drawbacks and requires thoughtful storage and care, many antique and vintage items made from this early plastic are highly collectible.

Early experimentation with celluloid or French ivory focused on the manufacturing of a substitute for costly natural ivory billiard balls. It wasn’t until camphor was added to the experimental mixture that a material hard enough for billiard balls was created. Alexander Parkes, Daniel Spill, John Wesley and Isaiah Hyatt all played crucial roles in perfecting this early plastic in the 1860s and 1870s.

 

I also assume it could be carved darkened etc much as old bakelite radios, handels, etc are now sought, collected to be carved and sold as expensive jewelery.

[Chthulhu]

Are you looking for a nib of the "proper age" because those are the only ones that will fit, or just because you would like to have the pen as close to stock, so to speak, as possible?

 

Holly

 

The latter, Holly; the nib I chose to "complete" the pen is marked "STANDARD NEW YORK 2" and looks like the oldest (and is the smallest) dip nib I have.

[OakIris]

I believe part of the problem goes back to the ferrule or decorative sleeve over the ferrule. Anyway the thingy made of brass with a raised pattern of stars and dots. I have one of the same size, If you count there is an alternating pattern of 9 , 9 stars 8 dots, 8 stars 9 dots. Measures just under 2 inches as in your picture. Clearly from the same manufacturer . The ferrule that runs through mine adds another half inch it has curled hooks where the nib slides in and will take any size nib.

 

My dip with this pattern. sleeve is said to be hand carved figural wood, a bulldog head with a brass collar. circa 1865. Also has a ring to attach a chain.

After studying it I'm now thinking French Ivory:

French ivory is an early manmade material created to resemble expensive natural ivory. This faux ivory is made from celluloid, a cellulose and camphor thermoplastic dating to the 1860s, and widely used until the middle of the 20th century. It can be differentiated from natural ivory by its parallel lines rather than the crosshatched lines found in genuine ivory and by its lighter weight. French ivory can be molded easily, making it an ideal substance for a wide variety of items, including decorative dresser sets, handles for flatware, hair accessories and gaming pieces. Although it has some drawbacks and requires thoughtful storage and care, many antique and vintage items made from this early plastic are highly collectible.

Early experimentation with celluloid or French ivory focused on the manufacturing of a substitute for costly natural ivory billiard balls. It wasn’t until camphor was added to the experimental mixture that a material hard enough for billiard balls was created. Alexander Parkes, Daniel Spill, John Wesley and Isaiah Hyatt all played crucial roles in perfecting this early plastic in the 1860s and 1870s.

 

I also assume it could be carved darkened etc much as old bakelite radios, handels, etc are now sought, collected to be carved and sold as expensive jewelery.

 

Excellent information here - thank you, arrow king. I didn't even know the sleeve was made of brass and I was definitely wondering what its purpose was, or if it even belonged to the pen. So the brass "sleeve" that my pen has is original to it and it should have been covering the actual ferrule for the pen, which is unfortunately missing. Even if I could find a ferrule that would fit, I am not sure my pen would be useable because it is so short - the "top" of the pen had something that screwed onto it and increased the size of the dip pen body, presumably making it long enough to use comfortably. Sadly, the threaded part to which the "top" attached is broken and the top part is long gone. I wonder if my pen is made of the French "ivory" you mentioned instead of bone - it was a French souvenir from the right time period, after all, and I see what I think are parallel lines in the grain.....

 

I, for one, would love to see a photo of your "ivory" dip pen, if you are willing to share.

 

 

The latter, Holly; the nib I chose to "complete" the pen is marked "STANDARD NEW YORK 2" and looks like the oldest (and is the smallest) dip nib I have.

 

Very nice! If I can ever find a ferrule - which seems doubtful - I will look for a vintage dip pen nib to fit the pen; even if I can't use the pen, I, too, would love to make it as "complete" as I possibly can.

 

Holly

Edited October 4, 2013 by OakIris