Cristallized Celluloid Pens - A Tibaldi Trasparente Ruined

[penboard.de]

Here is what I found last week - a befriended collector had these two together stashed away in the cellars, stored in a plastic pen tray with transparent cover. A regular 10 pen tray as its being used by the pen makers.

But the pens must have been hidden in a dark, non ventilated,slightly humid place for ages. 5 years? 8 years? The guy did not remember.

What happened? As far as I understood the workings of celluloid, some of them materials are full of acids - which in a closed environment tend to evaporate and reach a concentration that ruins the metals and even the celluloid. Especially transparent celluloids seem to be affected. The Iride pens seemed to be OK, just corroded - but disassembling I found the rubber seal completely ruined.

http://www.penboard.de/shop/pb/TibaldiCristalli.jpg

 

Enjoy? Well, no, register the pictures. :-)

 

Tom

[rroossinck]

Ugh...that wasn't a good way for me to start my day. Has the celluloid essentially weakened enough that it can't be used, even if the piston was rebuilt?

[pen2paper]

This is, what we in the world of antique/vintage garment fasteners, refer to as: "killing each other".

The off-gassing of celluloid - unstable, migrates = moisture, moisture corrodes metal, that corrosion hastens the deterioration of all the materials involved.. Storage in a properly ventilated area may have prevented what is presented in the photo above.

I am aware that in the world of fountain pens, the rubber sac is often cited as the culprit. That may be exactly so, however, this same effect is observed in these same materials, in such conditions, sans rubber... so this may be an additional reason, considering the photo example above, to consider correct storage for the longevity of specific materials.

Thank you for sharing, what I think, is an important topic of discussion.

[PhatMan]

Tom,

 

Celluloid nitrate will give off nitric acid as it decomposes; decomposing celluloid acetate will give off acetic acid.

 

I am constantly checking my straight razors that have scales made of celluloid to make sure that they are not 'going off'.

 

If possible keep all celluloid items in a well ventilated place.

 

Have fun !

 

Best regards

 

Russ

Edited October 20, 2011 by PhatMan

[penboard.de]

Ugh...that wasn't a good way for me to start my day. Has the celluloid essentially weakened enough that it can't be used, even if the piston was rebuilt?

 

well, the Iride will get a new seal and it will get back to live in ink.

the Trasparente - I was amazed, the pen still is in one piece after the flight home. its cracked to death, some cracks are 0,5 mm open. no chance.

I will transplant the nib onto a nice Impero I have without nib, whoever needs a cap - let me know. :-)

 

Tom

[Ron Z]

It does make me question the stability of the modern celluloid. This is the kind of breakdown that you see on the ends of Hundred Year pens, but not the more stable plastics of Parker and most Sheaffers.

 

Once the celluloid crystalizes, there really is no way to bring it back. Even trying to repair with an industrial solvent that's used as a base in plastic manufacturing or my other materials will can not repair it. The decay will continue and may even be exacerbated.

 

The rubber sac is not the cause. The sacs are believed to cause discoloration but to my knowledge, not this.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Ron Z

[Makar]

As Phatman notes, there is a lot of talk about this in the world of straight razors - just google 'celluloid rot' and see the info trail. Also noted in the guitar world re pickups locked away in guitar cases going 'off'.

 

Bill Ellis (straight razor maker) notes:

I have noticed a couple of things. Black scales don't seem to ever get celluloid rot, and the ones that get it the most are the semi-transparent amber and orange colors

Celluloid Rot

 

This seems to fit with your experience above Tom.

 

Stephen

Edited October 20, 2011 by Makar

[penboard.de]

It does make me question the stability of the modern celluloid. This is the kind of breakdown that you see on the ends of Hundred Year pens, but not the more stable plastics of Parker and most Sheaffers.

 

Once the celluloid crystalizes, there really is no way to bring it back. Even trying to repair with an industrial solvent that's used as a base in plastic manufacturing or my other materials will can not repair it. The decay will continue and may even be exacerbated.

 

The rubber sac is not the cause. The sacs are believed to cause discoloration but to my knowledge, not this.

No No, its not the modern vs. vintage celluloid, its certain types of celluloid, especially transparent variants. I have seen so many Aurora caps go to pieces - and Wahl Dorics - especially in the area of the cap, which remained solid. And just last week, 2 days before getting this Tibaldi I got a batch of 1930ies Osmia pens to fix - collector had 5 of them stashed away in a bank vault for long time. (!!! again no ventilation) and 4 of them corroded heavyly - strange enough one black and pearl pen remained 100% perfect. I will first follow the advice of Stefan Walrafen and drop them into a bath of lye to neutralize the acids.

 

and then start to polish metal and gold plate ....

 

Best regards

Tom

[LedZepGirl]

Eek! That's really ugly. I've never seen anything like that before, even with cheap pens made of poor materials.

[Michael R.]

 

...so how should one define "well ventilated"?

 

Michael

[Chris Chalmers]

You would have to make sure you open your safe and unzip your pen cases..........every day!!

[flighter51]

To quote Frank another time at the Houston pen show back in the day. "old pens have wrinkles, she's an old lady she EARNED those wrinkles." I laughed and resaced the commando I got off him and enjoyed the hell out of it!

 

Use the hell outta that nib and don't look back my friend. The voice of that pen, the nib lives on!

 

fern

[penboard.de]

 

...so how should one define "well ventilated"?

 

Michael

Maybe??? : Drill some holes into the safe, small enough, so no mouse gets in and eats the Casein-Cheese-Käse out of your MB star collection. :-)

[penboard.de]

Mailed a well known Italian pen maker the pics,

 

his response was "have seen my share of such pens, its the acids...(see above for the details). Ventilation might help, but not always. "

Interesting to hear from him, that Mazzucchelli - the Italian Celluloid maker - up to now cannot provide a real explanation to the problem and as well no solution.

 

Regards

Tom

[Michael R.]

Maybe??? : Drill some holes into the safe, small enough, so no mouse gets in and eats the Casein-Cheese-Käse out of your MB star collection. :-)

 

:roflmho:

[Michael R.]

Mailed a well known Italian pen maker the pics,

 

his response was "have seen my share of such pens, its the acids...(see above for the details). Ventilation might help, but not always. "

Interesting to hear from him, that Mazzucchelli - the Italian Celluloid maker - up to now cannot provide a real explanation to the problem and as well no solution.

 

Regards

Tom

 

[eckiethump]

I've also found the clearer Parker vacs such as the reticulated junior to be less stable celluloid than the normal ringed ones.Leads me to believe the colourants stabilise the celluloid. Sheaffer, particularly early clear WASP pens though seem a lot more stable. YMMV.

 

You just have to look at the state of the pressure bar from a crystallised Waterman 100 year pen to see the effects on metal of the out gassing of the clear end celluloid.

 

et

[Michael R.]

..., its the acids...(see above for the details).

 

So, would using high level pH (alkaline) inks help?

 

I bet a specially fomulated ink for transparent celluloid could sell

 

Michael (who just bought a Tibaldi Transparente & two modern Omas Lucens pens and will put a small stripe of pH indicator paper in the pen chest )

Edited October 23, 2011 by Michael R.

[Michael R.]

A small article with some background information:

 

Web article on celluloid buttons

 

This might also explain why transparent celluloid is more prone to chemical decomposition.

 

In case this is a light catalyzed process pigments will help to keep away light from most of the inside molecules. This is not he case with transparent celluloid as most wavelenghts of light will pass through it.

 

There was a similar problem some years ago with white & clear colored beer bottles compared to dark green or dark brown bottles. Beer in clear bottles went bad much earlier because of light induced reactions; the solution: the use of clear and colorless UV-filters melted into the glass

 

Michael

[pen2paper]

Very much enjoying your responses.

Michael, interesting idea about the ink.. an eyedropper, or piston filler would have direct contact with ink.

Perhaps Eric could relate his experiences with celluloid/other plastics/materials, and direct ink contact?

 

Thanks Ron for clarifying the rubber sac issue. To my knowledge there were no buttons with both celluloid and rubber. Goodyear, National Rubber Comb, and others, manufactured rubber buttons by the ton. Metal shanks remain in perfect condition after 100-150 years, Those with Shell embellishment likewise in perfect condition. The only issue seen is similar to that which we find in pens, light, and heat affects the color, and condition.

 

 

Back to celluloid in relation to fountain pens.. As release of offgas, (ventilation), and metal, (corrosion), factor in the issue, correct storage remains a prime issue - in my way of thinking.

Thank you for sharing Sue's article : ) please also research further to her cited reference - there are many others on plastics conservation/archival storage.

 

Also, as Stephen's link to straight razor's direct contain with metal showed.. some celluloid's were less stable, with their materials/plasticizers migrating, colors shifting.. this could be from formula, processing, with longevity shortened by heat, lack of ventilation, contact reaction to other materials.

 

I experimented with my own celluloid buttons for some 15 years..

Divided according to celluloid type - those with metal - and other material embellishments, And metal shanks, (every material is taken into consideration), Specifically Metalized Celluloids - a thin all-over covering - huge offender. All separated, into material-specific separate containers.

 

Mounted upon archival mat board, and into archival photo boxes which had been turned upside down, then using an awl,"Ventilated" with holes, so dust would not fall In, when box turned upright. Regularly inspected, with any that appeared to have oiliness, crazing, or powder of deterioration, removed and isolated. (These may have already been in a non-visible state of deterioration when placed inside). Isolated examples used to educate other collectors about deterioration.

Any additions must be in good condition. So far, this method has worked - for me.

 

It has also helped in inspection of old collections. No one saves old, already rusted buttons in the family button container. Those, often the finest enamels with cut steels, become ruined by their inclusion in an airless enclosure with unstable celluloids. Also, most 19Th C buttons were 3 piece, back/front, and an interior cardboard disc, which wicks moisture from the offgasing celluloid, causing the odd "rusting from the inside out" issue. These pictorials were worn with up to 100 buttons per garment. 3/8th" on gloves to 1 1/2"+ in size, See: Avatar.

 

As to fountain pens, I bow entirely to the experts who study and repair them. Thanks again for sharing your experiences. It is an important issue.