Differences Between American And English Roundhand

[Arachiroptera Corvax]

May I ask what differences exist between Spencerian/American roundhand?

 

I'd like to avoid too much technical detail in terms of history and the like.

 

As far as I'm aware copperplate developed from penman trying to emulate the scripts used by engravers for printing?

Whereas Spencerian was designed soley with the pen in mind.

 

IAMPETH seems rather vague on whether English roundhand is copperplate or visa versa(?!?!)

 

Maby I have an uncultured eye but I can't see much in the way of differences but plenty of similarities

 

A flick through fpn's search archives informed me of one difference between 'copperplate' and Spencerian, the angle 55 degree vs 52

 

I own both p.r.spencers theory and copybooks , and dover's re-print of the universal penman. Which is what I'm basing my comparisons on

 

*confusled!*

 

I ask because I'm trying to improve my non-existant penmanship skills for an everyday hand

 

When I put my mind to it and attempt to write neatly or at least so I can actually decipher it later which admittedly doesn't happen very often, I find that I form the letters in a similar way to those outlined in p.r spencers book or at least loosely similar with several application of imagination.

 

I rather like the look of Spencerian but feel I possibly like the hands depicted in the ultimate penman better, but it's hard to tell as they look remarkably similar to my untrained eye!

 

And I'd still like to have it as recognisably my own rather than obliterate it's personality and uniqueness to fit within a set if rules or forms

 

Any advice or tips would be very welcome (assuming Anyones awake after that ramble!)

 

Confused, L

[caliken]

This may help.

 

The most obvious difference between the two styles, is that every downstroke in Copperplate is shaded to the same degree, whereas, in Spencerian, the shading is selective.

 

In Copperplate, every shaded stroke is parallel weighted, wherever possible and exactly the opposite is true in Spencerian where parallel shaded strokes are rigorously avoided!

 

In fact, the only thing the two styles have in common is that they are both written with a flexible pointed nib!

Edited September 15, 2010 by caliken

[AD356]

Here is an example of Spencerian Script, and Engrosser's Script (or copperplate) Like the other examples here they are categorized as round hand style. Therefor they look quite similar at first glance, but when compared side by side you can see a lot of different.

 

 

http://www.zanerian.com/ScriptComparison_files/image002.jpg

 

The main differences here (without getting too technical) is the shading. Copperplate (Engrosser) script is shaded on each letter upper and lowercase. While Spencerian is shaded on each uppercase the lowercase shading can be almost none-existent. This is the main difference. The uppercase letters take on different forms as well as being shaded differently. There is much more freedom in Spencerian than in Copperplate when it comes to the shading. So more flexible nibs are desired when writing(or drawling as the case may be)the Spencerian script.

 

I know Caliken posted an example of the difference before but could not find them... So here is what I could find if you need further information.

 

http://www.zanerian.com/ScriptComparison.html

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/demystifying_enigma.pdf

[AD356]

It looks as though he beat me to it and posted his fine examples of the two styles. Hope this helps and good practicing.

[Arachiroptera Corvax]

Being that you know alot on the subject and I very grateful :-) , do you have any suggestions on reading/instructional material for copperplate

It's funny that you don't notice these things! It's very hard to see the shading in the universal penman despite the writing being fairly large and clear, as the shading is quite subtle in quite a few examples

 

Caliken your penmanship is amazing, I would take my hat off to you if I was wearing one

Edited September 15, 2010 by Arachiroptera Corvax

[AD356]

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons.php#engravers_engrossers

[caliken]

This example of the same words written in the two scripts may make the differences a bit more obvious. I have written both examples with the same nib and at the same x height.

Spencerian is first, followed by English Roundhand aka Copperplate.

Incidentally, this is the written form of Copperplate and not Engrossers Script, which is drawn.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/SpencerianCopperplate1.jpg

 

caliken

[AD356]

As always that is really beautiful Caliken Thank you again for sharing.

[Randal6393]

Thanks, Ken, for showing us excellent examples of the written Spencerian and Copperplate scripts. However, I think a small caveat may be in order here.

 

Ken is one of the few people I know of who can write Copperplate and make it look more exact than most drawn examples. Indeed, Copperplate/Engrosser's Script is drawn, not considered a written script. But Ken's hand is excellent, he has an exactness with his writing -- whatever the script -- that few of us can match.

 

Drawn, instead of written, implies the script is made up of several small strokes instead of one stroke per letter. If you go to You-Tube and watch Ken write out his Copperplate example, you will see he writes it as one stroke per letter. Most of us break the "e" into two strokes, the "a" into three, etc. It might take most of us years to reach the level of skill that Ken has. I, for one, will probable never reach that level of expertise. Although I try.

 

The good news is that to be a good penman/calligrapher you do not have to acquire Ken's expertise with the pen -- I thank the Universe for that.

 

Enjoy,

Edited September 19, 2010 by Randal6393

[Jamesiv1]

There is a good deal of difference in the two styles, and a lot of the confusion stems from the terminology.

 

English Roundhand is what you find in Bickham's The Universal Penman. Here is a sample penned by Willington Clark:

http://www.iampeth.com/stuff/roundhand02.jpg

 

Note the roundness of the arches on lowercase n, m, u, etc.

 

The word "copperplate" is a relatively recent term, and refers to styles of calligraphy resembling those of Bickham's day that were engraved on - you guessed it - copper plates for printing.

 

Roundhand/Copperplate is a written hand, not drawn, and the terms are fairly interchangeable.

 

Engrosser's Script, aka Engrosser's Script, is drawn - not written. Think of it as "engraving on paper".

 

http://www.iampeth.com/stuff/VitoloQuote.jpg

 

Spencerian script, is quite different. Also called "Semi-angular writing", the arches and turns are much more angular. And, as has already been pointed out, it is selectively shaded on the downstrokes, compared to Roundhand which is shaded on every downstroke.

 

Here is what the Spencer Brothers taught back in 1885:

 

http://www.iampeth.com/stuff/spencer_new_standard_image0.jpg

http://www.iampeth.com/stuff/spencer_new_standard_image1.jpg

 

And a fine example by Henry Flickinger:

 

http://www.iampeth.com/stuff/FlickingerSpec0001.JPG

 

Finally, there is a style called "Ornamental Script". More of a running hand look, even more angular, and with lots of flourishing and heavy, dramatic shades on the capitals, this was a hybrid style that evolved from Spencerian. In fact, the lowercase letters are decidedly Spencerian, combined with decorative, dramatically shaded capitals. Louis Madarasz was a master of this style.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/stuff/Coulter_OP.jpg

 

Hope that helps.

 

James

[Belles-lettres]

Here is an example of Spencerian Script, and Engrosser's Script (or copperplate) Like the other examples here they are categorized as round hand style. Therefor they look quite similar at first glance, but when compared side by side you can see a lot of different.

 

 

A further clarification, please-

 

Is "business or secretarial hand" as shown above, the same as taught by Palmer (which I was taught in grade school)?

 

Russ

[Jamesiv1]

Yes. Business Writing/Business script is the same style taught by Palmer.

 

Characterized and often remembered for the push-pulls and oval exercises, what Palmer developed was more a method than a style. Palmer's was a "system" for teaching handwriting. Essentially a monoline, simplified Spencerian, the style was basically the same as that being taught by many others - Business Writing. The method for teaching it was the difference.

 

James

Edited September 20, 2010 by Jamesiv1

[ag273n]

wow! great posts, i think i'm catching the differences of the two now.. cool