Craftsman 109 Lathe

[Tommy]

I've made a few kit pens on my wood lathe, but I always wanted to take it to the next level and make one from scratch on a metal lathe. So I found this lathe at an estate sale today for $100 and brought it home. Do any of you own one? Are they any good or did I just throw a hundred dollar bill down the toilet?

 

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[professionaldilettante]

Interesting find! looks a bit archaic, but it may still work. Have you tried it out yet? Also, i don't know of actually hand carving metals, as I'm more familiar with CNC milling, but i would think that you'd only be able to mill something soft like aluminum or brass. However, if you're planing to work in precious metals, I have a suggestion: turn carving wax. This can then be used to make molds and cast with the lost-wax method. I've found a way to mount wax onto a dremel and turn it with a razor blade and files. I can't do very large pieces, but I'm sure if a pen is sectioned, i wouldn't think that a large piece of wax needs to be carved. Lucky!

[ZeissIkon]

If you do a web search on AA 109 (the alternate name for that model), you'll find lots and lots of information from Usenet newsgroups and various web pages. That lathe was positioned about where the modern Chinese made Sieg lathes are (sold by Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Emco, Canadian Tire, Homier, etc.), though it's actually closer to the Prazzi 5" lathe in size. Some Sherline accessories will fit, as that lathe has the same tailstock and spindle tapers as a Sherline (0 Morse tailstock, 1 Morse spindle taper, not bored through as I recall). Given you got a set of change gears with it (they're almost impossible to find as replacements these days), no, you almost certainly didn't waste your $100; worst case, if you find the lathe doesn't do what you want, you can probably part it out on eBay for almost enough to buy a brand new Seig (Harbor Freight, Homier, Grizzly, Emco, etc.) 7x10 -- which is certainly capable of anything you'll want to do in pen making.

[Tommy]

Interesting find! looks a bit archaic, but it may still work. Have you tried it out yet? Also, i don't know of actually hand carving metals, as I'm more familiar with CNC milling, but i would think that you'd only be able to mill something soft like aluminum or brass. However, if you're planing to work in precious metals, I have a suggestion: turn carving wax. This can then be used to make molds and cast with the lost-wax method. I've found a way to mount wax onto a dremel and turn it with a razor blade and files. I can't do very large pieces, but I'm sure if a pen is sectioned, i wouldn't think that a large piece of wax needs to be carved. Lucky!

 

No, I haven't fired it up yet. I need to clean it up and lubricate it first and get it mounted somewhere. I'm running out of shop space:) I was planning on working with plastics for the pen barrels and caps rather than metals.

[Tommy]

If you do a web search on AA 109 (the alternate name for that model), you'll find lots and lots of information from Usenet newsgroups and various web pages. That lathe was positioned about where the modern Chinese made Sieg lathes are (sold by Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Emco, Canadian Tire, Homier, etc.), though it's actually closer to the Prazzi 5" lathe in size. Some Sherline accessories will fit, as that lathe has the same tailstock and spindle tapers as a Sherline (0 Morse tailstock, 1 Morse spindle taper, not bored through as I recall). Given you got a set of change gears with it (they're almost impossible to find as replacements these days), no, you almost certainly didn't waste your $100; worst case, if you find the lathe doesn't do what you want, you can probably part it out on eBay for almost enough to buy a brand new Seig (Harbor Freight, Homier, Grizzly, Emco, etc.) 7x10 -- which is certainly capable of anything you'll want to do in pen making.

 

Thanks for the info on my lathe, Zeissicon. I'll clean it up, lube it, and see how it runs. I've restored several older woodworking machines (Delta, Walker-Turner, Atlas) but this is my first venture into metal working machines. I was unsure if this lathe had enough precision for cutting threads and other fine operations. But I'll have fun playing with it no matter what.

[Clydesdave]

Tommy,

 

That lathe will not cut threads. It does not have a lead screw in the Z axis, nor the transmission to drive it.

 

That looks like a fine lathe to me though. On of the things I look at on a lathe is the ratio of the spindle height/throw to the distance between the way guides. It looks pretty good on that lathe. I'm sure you made a good purchase. Keep us posted on how things turn out.

[Vintagepens]

That lathe will not cut threads. It does not have a lead screw in the Z axis, nor the transmission to drive it.

 

I beg to differ. The photo quite clearly shows otherwise. Note the change gears.

[ZeissIkon]

Tommy,

 

That lathe will not cut threads. It does not have a lead screw in the Z axis, nor the transmission to drive it.

 

That looks like a fine lathe to me though. On of the things I look at on a lathe is the ratio of the spindle height/throw to the distance between the way guides. It looks pretty good on that lathe. I'm sure you made a good purchase. Keep us posted on how things turn out.

 

Beg to differ; that lathe does have a lead screw (there's a handwheel for it at the foot end) and the housing on the head end is to cover the gears that were pictured in a neat stack behind the bed in the second photo. There's even what looks like a threading dial on the head end of the apron, and the black knob at the tail end of the apron operates the half nut. Threading wasn't factory standard on the 109, but Sears and AA sold threading kits that upgraded these lathes, and this appears to have one. Also, despite someone else's comment, an AA 109 is perfectly capable of cutting steel or cast iron, with sharp tools and a willingness to take small bites and make more passes. If the lead screw and half nut are in good condition, and the ways not too worn in the middle, it's probably capable of working within .001", with a bit of care and skill, and should easily handle English threads (metric is a maybe, depends on what change gears you have whether you can get "close enough" for some metric threads, or would need to source a replacement lead screw and half nut).

[Clydesdave]

You are absolutely right, that is a thread dial on the apron. My mistake. I'm used to the dial being on the other side of the apron. My most humble apologies.

[richardandtracy]

You are absolutely right, that is a thread dial on the apron. My mistake. I'm used to the dial being on the other side of the apron. My most humble apologies.

Just like to mention that it's possible to cut threads on a lathe (like mine) where there is no thread cutting dial and there is no half nut to disengage the saddle from the axial feed. This arrangement makes cutting a thread up to a shoulder an exciting prospect - just when do you turn the motor off & will the tool crash into the shoulder..?

 

Also, you can use chasers or dies on a non-screw cutting lathe, ask Ruaidri how to use chasers as I've never done it.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[ZeissIkon]

Just like to mention that it's possible to cut threads on a lathe (like mine) where there is no thread cutting dial and there is no half nut to disengage the saddle from the axial feed. This arrangement makes cutting a thread up to a shoulder an exciting prospect - just when do you turn the motor off & will the tool crash into the shoulder..?

 

Also, you can use chasers or dies on a non-screw cutting lathe, ask Ruaidri how to use chasers as I've never done it.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

 

I don't think I'd want to even think about having to stop the lathe by shutting off the motor for thread cutting; I'd be much more likely to make a spindle crank and work by hand (yeah, I know, takes all the excitement out of threading to a shoulder, but it saves so much money in parts). I'd be careful using a chaser in a lathe as small as a 109; just like a simple knurling tool, the pressure on the spindle could lead to premature bearing wear in the headstock (and in any case, using a chaser is a skill that requires considerable practice). Dies work very well with lathes of any size, though, as do taps, both of which are happier and safer to use with a hand crank for the spindle.

 

The bad news is, a hand crank for the spindle on a 109 is tricky, because the original spindle wasn't bored through, so you can't use the traditional method of an internal collet to fit the spindle bore; the best way I can see to run a 109 on hand crank, assuming the spindle hasn't been upgraded to a bored-through version, would be to mount the crank on a pulley/sheave and swap the final drive belt to the crank when you need to hand crank (which I'd recommend for threading -- break a gear by crashing the carriage and you'll find out how expensive those change gears really are).

[Tommy]

Well, I ran the lathe briefly, today, and there is a slight wobble in the chuck. I chucked a 6" drill bit and it wobbles about 1/8" at the tip. Can I remove the chuck and check the spindle for runout? I have a dial indicator. How does the chuck come off? Any ideas?

[ZeissIkon]

Well, I ran the lathe briefly, today, and there is a slight wobble in the chuck. I chucked a 6" drill bit and it wobbles about 1/8" at the tip. Can I remove the chuck and check the spindle for runout? I have a dial indicator. How does the chuck come off? Any ideas?

 

No need to check the chuck for runout; bent spindles are a very common failure in the 109. If you search eBay, you can probably find replacement spindles, and from what I understand, replacing the spindle isn't a huge job (and will give you an opportunity to buy a bored-through version).

 

The chuck comes off the spindle easily enough, BTW, or should; it's threaded on, common right hand thread, and IIRC uses the same thread as a Sherline, though the spigot is either longer or shorter than that of the Sherline, so some Sherline accessories don't work on the 109.

[Tommy]

I found a replacement spindle on homeshopsupply.com for $95. These guys specialize in the 109. That would put me at about $200 in a lathe that I'm not sure is worth putting that much money into. Ebay turned up nothing. I thought if a collision caused the bent spindle, why wouldn't an equal and opposite collision unbend the spindle?

 

So this morning I got out a big hammer and a block of wood and whacked the chuck a few times, checking my progress with a dial indicator. I reduced the runout from about .012" down to about .002" measured on the outside of the chuck. I put a 6" long drill bit in the chuck and ran the lathe. I can just barely see a little wobble at the tip, so it's a lot better than it was. I think for pen making, working with plastic, it might be good enough.

 

Was my fix a little heavy handed? Should I get out the hammer again and try to get it closer to zero runout?

 

And if I'm an idiot for hitting my lathe with a hammer, let me know, and I'll stop

 

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/tom1415/Picture388.jpg

[Chthulhu]

Well, you *could* have damaged the bearings doing that; any impacts to the spindle are to be avoided.

 

A better approach for a spindle that small would have been to remove the spindle from the lathe, mount it between centers to find the high point, and then use an arbor press to *gently* straighten it. Granted, you would have to have that equipment, or access to it, to do so, but it would eliminate the risk of causing further damage to the rest of the lathe from those impacts.

 

By the way, I've spent the last twenty years correcting damage to machine tools; I'm not just talking out my ventral orifice. :-)

Edited October 25, 2009 by Chthulhu

[ZeissIkon]

Bearing damage aside (and I completely agree with Chthulhu on the inadvisability of hitting your lathe with a hammer, though as I recall the bearings in a 109 aren't either expensive nor difficult to change), adding $95 to your lathe's cost by replacing the spindle would put you at the outer limit of the value of a somewhat worn 109 with threading, but not over it, IMO. Aside the delicacy of the spindle, when you have it fully running it'll be the equal of a Sherline with riser blocks and threading kit added, which is easily a $750 machine (your 109 won't be as pretty, but it'll be a bit stiffer than a Sherline with riser blocks).

 

BTW, .002" on the chuck is still pretty bad; move down the ways six inches, and that'd become .012" to .015", which is quite unacceptable for machine turning. Assuming you follow Chthulhu's method, it should be possible to straighten the spindle enough to get under .002" six inches down, which is just about okay for rough work -- a properly adjusted lathe in good condition ought to be able to hold .001" over a foot. I think it's very unlikely that you'll be able to straighten a bent spindle to that standard, but I won't say it's impossible.

 

If you do decide to spend the money to get the replacement spindle (and maybe a new big end spindle bearing), I'd suggest making a spare spindle as a nice first project (you can still take dimensions off the bent one after you install the good one) -- that lathe is perfectly capable of doing that level of work, though you'll have to either bite the bullet and buy a #1 Morse reamer or develop a method of cutting the spindle taper manually and checking it against a known good taper plug, assuming you want to retain the ability to mount taper accessories in the spindle another spindle down the line...