Left Handed Underwriter + Spencerian

[dftr]

Hello,

 

I was looking for some help; searching through lefty posts in here seemed to focus mostly on overwriters/hookers.

I turn the page 90degrees clockwise and write towards my body. I use mainly italic nibs + also some left footed obliques; my handwriting is "inspired" by certain hands, but I would not name it calligraphy as it is my everyday writing. At some point, I'll need to post pics to get some feedback/advice there.

 

I've recently started using some flexible vintage pens (Wahleversharp Doric and Waterman Lady Patrician) and while I enjoy the tactile sensation; my handwriting's not as nice I'd like. So I am considering getting into Spencerian writing. Some of the posts here say that underwriters may have an advantage compared to righties!

 

1) What is the actual difference b/w Spencerian vs. Copperplate? Is one more suited for underwriters?

 

2) Is there a book or link on left handed Spencerian writing? (I found a youtube video of a lefthanded person but there was no instruction.)

 

3) Should I keep the same page orientation (turning clockwise 90 degree)?

 

4) The flexible pens I have are nice, but they are really small and I do not feel completely in control.

What advice/experience do you have regarding using a Namiki Falcon or even an OMAS celluloid modified for flexibility by John Mottishaw. I confess that the OMAS has always been in my heart and this may be a timely excuse to buy it!

OTOH, in the youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjUQ4CckYNU...feature=related

the lefthanded writer is using an oblique nib holder.

 

Is this what I should use?

In general, is a dip pen superior in terms of creating letters to a FP?

Can I use the same FP ink (Noodlers) for dip pens?

 

Thanks a whole lot!

 

Arjun

[wykpenguin]

Looks like you have not come upon the Holy Grail yet. So here it is http://www.iampeth.com/lessons.php the Holy Grail of cursive.

[dftr]

Looks like you have not come upon the Holy Grail yet. So here it is http://www.iampeth.com/lessons.php the Holy Grail of cursive.

I've found that link in the stickied section, and while it has a lot of information, I do not see anything addressed to left handed writers... Are you left handed and do you use Spencerian writing? If so, please let me know your setup?

[lefty928]

Hello,

 

I was looking for some help; searching through lefty posts in here seemed to focus mostly on overwriters/hookers.

I turn the page 90degrees clockwise and write towards my body. I use mainly italic nibs + also some left footed obliques; my handwriting is "inspired" by certain hands, but I would not name it calligraphy as it is my everyday writing. At some point, I'll need to post pics to get some feedback/advice there.

 

I've recently started using some flexible vintage pens (Wahleversharp Doric and Waterman Lady Patrician) and while I enjoy the tactile sensation; my handwriting's not as nice I'd like. So I am considering getting into Spencerian writing. Some of the posts here say that underwriters may have an advantage compared to righties!

 

1) What is the actual difference b/w Spencerian vs. Copperplate? Is one more suited for underwriters?

 

2) Is there a book or link on left handed Spencerian writing? (I found a youtube video of a lefthanded person but there was no instruction.)

 

3) Should I keep the same page orientation (turning clockwise 90 degree)?

 

4) The flexible pens I have are nice, but they are really small and I do not feel completely in control.

What advice/experience do you have regarding using a Namiki Falcon or even an OMAS celluloid modified for flexibility by John Mottishaw. I confess that the OMAS has always been in my heart and this may be a timely excuse to buy it!

OTOH, in the youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjUQ4CckYNU...feature=related

the lefthanded writer is using an oblique nib holder.

 

Is this what I should use?

In general, is a dip pen superior in terms of creating letters to a FP?

Can I use the same FP ink (Noodlers) for dip pens?

 

Thanks a whole lot!

 

Arjun

From my experience, which is not as extensive as that of some other FPN members, and as a lefthanded underhanded writer who changed from writing overhanded because of calligraphy:

1) The Iampeth site has very informative material on the difference, and for FPNers' takes, a search on the two terms should turn up comments on the difference. Umenohana started a thread/poll on the subject that has become quite long, I think it's called something like "Which style do you prefer?" (more or less).

2) Not that I know of, that would be very specialized. Michael Sull might have a few paragraphs on the subject in his book on Spencerian, but I don't have this textbook. Many calligraphy how-to books have a little bit on the subject, although they might not all say the same thing or be applicable to your particular needs.

3) Whatever lets you maintain the correct slant.

5) Try first using an ordinary straight penholder. Apparently, some lefthanders prefer using an oblique pen holder, while many already can maintain the required slant writing the "regular" way. My Copperplate instructor automatically hands out straight penholders to any lefthanders who show up in her classes.

6) You can purchase dip pen nibs that are extremely flexible. And they are so much cheaper than a modified nib on a modern pen. So exponentially cheaper and so flexible ... (I don't have a Mottishawed pen, although there used to be a few posts in Writing Instruments that referred to experiences with them. Maybe someday, when I have tons of excess cash and have acquired some vintage fps with flexible nibs first ...) Copperplate seems to call for a more flexible nib than Spencerian, but both do call for flex.

7) There are some beautiful examples (see Umenohana's and Ann Finley's posts, for example) of writing samples from people using dip pens and fountain pen inks, but I've been told that fountain pen inks are too thin to use this way. An early experiment a few years ago did not work well for me, although I didn't try adding a shot of gum arabic. I'd go with Higgins Eternal (and maybe a few drops of gum arabic) for now, although you, too, could experiment to find out.

 

Good luck with your efforts! Your post inspires me to try learning Spencerian (again).

[vidalia11]

 

Hi,

 

I'm a lefthanded underwriter and I don't think any of that specialized stuff matters. Do whatever feels natural to you. I use flexible vintage fountain pens, dip pens, whatever, and don't do anything special - and I don't use an oblique holder. My writing is progressing fine imo.

 

I believe Spencerian is thinner and more spiky than Copperplate. Copperplate is more formal. Spencerian is more of an everyday hand from back in the day. They both look good - I am learning Copperplate.

 

 

Karen

[wykpenguin]

Looking at Copperplate and Spencerian, the biggest difference other than the shape of letters is the lack of shading (actually there is some very carefully done shading) in the minuscules in Spencerian script. If I am not wrong, Spencerian was originally designed as a Business Script to be written with straight pens. It was not until the great penman, armed with their super-flex dip pens, started to do ornate writing, flourishes and Spencerian signatures did they use oblique holders.

 

I write Copperplate with a straight pen holder although I believe Spencerian is the better looking of the two. A page of copperplate just looks to "stiff". Perhaps it is due to Copperplate beginning as an engravers' script while Spencerian started out purely as a written script.

[dftr]

Looking at Copperplate and Spencerian, the biggest difference other than the shape of letters is the lack of shading (actually there is some very carefully done shading) in the minuscules in Spencerian script. If I am not wrong, Spencerian was originally designed as a Business Script to be written with straight pens. It was not until the great penman, armed with their super-flex dip pens, started to do ornate writing, flourishes and Spencerian signatures did they use oblique holders.

 

I write Copperplate with a straight pen holder although I believe Spencerian is the better looking of the two. A page of copperplate just looks to "stiff". Perhaps it is due to Copperplate beginning as an engravers' script while Spencerian started out purely as a written script.

 

Thanks for the reply. One other question, is using a dip pen very difficult from using a FP; I'm considering starting w/ a dip pen as it seems to be the best way to learn, but would probably eventually migrate to using a FP... I tend to prefer Spencerian just b/c it seems more readable (Copperplate's flourishes sometimes makes it hard for me to scan and read though it looks very nice.) BTW, I see mention of Spencerian Lady's Script on that site; is this meant for the gentler sex (women?)

 

Karen and Lefty928, it gives me hope and encouragement to know that you've both progressed in this hand. I would not have guessed from looking at your flicker site that you were a lefty. Sorry to keep harping on this, but did you follow the same instructions/directions for creating the strokes as for righties? My calligraphy book is an old guide: Art pf Calligraphy by David Harris and has a few pages/guides on Spencerian. I will try the iampeth site as well for instructions.

 

If I sound paranoid about this lefty thing, it's because I've had several experiences (Tennis/work) etc. where everything was taught righty, and I was told "just do the opposite"

Edited February 18, 2009 by dftr

[lefty928]

Thanks for the reply. One other question, is using a dip pen very difficult from using a FP; I'm considering starting w/ a dip pen as it seems to be the best way to learn, but would probably eventually migrate to using a FP... I tend to prefer Spencerian just b/c it seems more readable (Copperplate's flourishes sometimes makes it hard for me to scan and read though it looks very nice.) BTW, I see mention of Spencerian Lady's Script on that site; is this meant for the gentler sex (women?)

 

Karen and Lefty928, it gives me hope and encouragement to know that you've both progressed in this hand. I would not have guessed from looking at your flicker site that you were a lefty. Sorry to keep harping on this, but did you follow the same instructions/directions for creating the strokes as for righties? My calligraphy book is an old guide: Art pf Calligraphy by David Harris and has a few pages/guides on Spencerian. I will try the iampeth site as well for instructions.

 

If I sound paranoid about this lefty thing, it's because I've had several experiences (Tennis/work) etc. where everything was taught righty, and I was told "just do the opposite"

Been there. In fact, I played tennis and perform many other tasks with my right hand because, well, it's a majority culture and that "just do the opposite" spiel was pretty feeble instruction. My two cents worth:

My calligraphy teacher, who is righthanded but did not resort to merely saying "just do the opposite" and even had taught herself to demonstrate strokes with her left hand, recommended Betsy River's Insights Into Left-handed Calligraphy as pretty decent. I had intended to buy it, but in the end my teacher said I didn't need it. One online vendor who stocks it is at http://www.paperinkarts.com/shop.html.

I'd be cautious with other "calligraphy for the left-hander" texts. I have an old book that is pretty useless, and also a calligraphy book by Timothy Noad. Beautiful calligraphy by a left-hander, but trying to follow his instructions killed my hand muscles and I went back to my old way of doing things. What's important is what works for you. (Note that there are highly respected professional calligraphers who happen to be left-handed around.)

 

I dug (and I mean dug) out my copy of the Art of Calligraphy -- I see only a Copperplate exemplar? Holding your pen as you do and slanting your paper as you do, yes, the righty instructions work fine. I once saw a hand created for left-handers (think it was in a Margaret Shepherd book) with strokes created just for us, and it struck me as very ugly!

 

Just for fun, you might want to browse these Spencerian-related pages in the John Neal online catalog: http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/34 ; http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/85 ; and http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/6 .

 

wykpenquin is absolutely right when he says Spencerian is used with a straight pen, even for righties. I don't know the exact answer to your dip pen question -- it's different, not difficult. Just make sure to get the factory coating off the nib; any instructional text, the iampeth site, or the posts here will tell you several methods. Lots of people on FPN have picked up dip pens to use for testing inks with no problem. You should be fine.

 

Again, best of luck!

 

 

[wykpenguin]

I guess I was too stupid to be converted to a righty, they tried to have me write with the other hand, they failed.

 

Apart from using a computer mouse and a knife I really can't think of anything I do with my write hand. Often right handed people are eager to help, but they usually have no clue about how I would do it with my left hand. I usually ask them to do it as they would do it themselves and then I just find a way to get to the same result. Sometimes, the best way is to mimic a right hand (e.g. turning the paper 90 deg for Italics), but there are times that I really just do the opposite (e.g. playing badminton).

 

I have never cared about oblique holders. I can align the point to the slant just fine with a straight holder. The trick to writing with any hand is to use every way you can think of to make the nib go in the right directions with the right angle and pressure. Simple.

[lefty928]

And interesting book I came across a couple years ago is The Left Stuff -- it contradicted old assumptions about lefthandedness (earlier deaths, more accident-prone, brain damage -- those sorts of assumptions) and talked about different sorts of lefthandedness. That is, some people might perform all manual actions with their left hands, others might actually write and do most other actions with their right hand except for one obscure thing. And different left-handers have all sort of brain patterns -- none of this left brain right brain stuff, it all depends on the individual. Of course, the left brain, right brain distinction already has been battered over the years and revealed as not so cut and dried: sold a lot of books, though.

[dftr]

Thanks for the reply. One other question, is using a dip pen very difficult from using a FP; I'm considering starting w/ a dip pen as it seems to be the best way to learn, but would probably eventually migrate to using a FP... I tend to prefer Spencerian just b/c it seems more readable (Copperplate's flourishes sometimes makes it hard for me to scan and read though it looks very nice.) BTW, I see mention of Spencerian Lady's Script on that site; is this meant for the gentler sex (women?)

 

Karen and Lefty928, it gives me hope and encouragement to know that you've both progressed in this hand. I would not have guessed from looking at your flicker site that you were a lefty. Sorry to keep harping on this, but did you follow the same instructions/directions for creating the strokes as for righties? My calligraphy book is an old guide: Art pf Calligraphy by David Harris and has a few pages/guides on Spencerian. I will try the iampeth site as well for instructions.

 

If I sound paranoid about this lefty thing, it's because I've had several experiences (Tennis/work) etc. where everything was taught righty, and I was told "just do the opposite"

Been there. In fact, I played tennis and perform many other tasks with my right hand because, well, it's a majority culture and that "just do the opposite" spiel was pretty feeble instruction. My two cents worth:

My calligraphy teacher, who is righthanded but did not resort to merely saying "just do the opposite" and even had taught herself to demonstrate strokes with her left hand, recommended Betsy River's Insights Into Left-handed Calligraphy as pretty decent. I had intended to buy it, but in the end my teacher said I didn't need it. One online vendor who stocks it is at http://www.paperinkarts.com/shop.html.

I'd be cautious with other "calligraphy for the left-hander" texts. I have an old book that is pretty useless, and also a calligraphy book by Timothy Noad. Beautiful calligraphy by a left-hander, but trying to follow his instructions killed my hand muscles and I went back to my old way of doing things. What's important is what works for you. (Note that there are highly respected professional calligraphers who happen to be left-handed around.)

 

I dug (and I mean dug) out my copy of the Art of Calligraphy -- I see only a Copperplate exemplar? Holding your pen as you do and slanting your paper as you do, yes, the righty instructions work fine. I once saw a hand created for left-handers (think it was in a Margaret Shepherd book) with strokes created just for us, and it struck me as very ugly!

 

Just for fun, you might want to browse these Spencerian-related pages in the John Neal online catalog: http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/34 ; http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/85 ; and http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/6 .

 

wykpenquin is absolutely right when he says Spencerian is used with a straight pen, even for righties. I don't know the exact answer to your dip pen question -- it's different, not difficult. Just make sure to get the factory coating off the nib; any instructional text, the iampeth site, or the posts here will tell you several methods. Lots of people on FPN have picked up dip pens to use for testing inks with no problem. You should be fine.

 

Again, best of luck!

Thanks. I guess I'm just going to have to jump into the pool; relative to the cost of my FPs, dip pens are much easier to take a chance.

 

I like the selection on Paperinkarts, so I'm going to order.

I'm just wondering, do these nibs break often? I see options to buy them by the dozens? Anyway, I'm going w/ the straight holder (speedball) and will also try some italic nibs. I'll also try a left handed brause cut nib and see how it goes.

 

BTW, I think the search function is off on this site; I found a good primer via Google on these boards, but searching directly for "dip" under writing instruments failed to find anything! It may be that 3 letters words are too small search.

 

There is some mention of a reservoir? I guess this would be built into the nib rather than the nib holder?

 

There's a lot of interesting thoughts on lefties. I actually used to hook write growing up. FPs have made underwriting seem more natural; even now when I use a BP.

BTW, one of the interesting things is in Tennis, Raphael Nadal the #1 player, is actually a true righty. They decided he'd have an advantage playing lefty and switched him over! He is obviously talented and probably ambidextrous from birth.

 

Will see how it goes!

 

BTW, will also order insights into Left handed calligraphy... My calligraphy book does not have any Spencerian exemplars after all, so I'll try w/ the iampeth site!

 

[lefty928]

I'm just wondering, do these nibs break often? I see options to buy them by the dozens? Anyway, I'm going w/ the straight holder (speedball) and will also try some italic nibs. I'll also try a left handed brause cut nib and see how it goes.

 

BTW, I think the search function is off on this site; I found a good primer via Google on these boards, but searching directly for "dip" under writing instruments failed to find anything! It may be that 3 letters words are too small search.

 

There is some mention of a reservoir? I guess this would be built into the nib rather than the nib holder?

Apparently the pointed pen nibs do wear out faster than the broad-edged nibs. I haven't had one wear out on me yet because my life got busy and I stopped practicing after a six-week course in (very) beginning Copperplate a year or so two ago. I gather you'll know when it happens, and it's not like they are shot after writing a few pages. Others here who are more experienced would know more about how long pointed pen nibs last, although I suspect it varies with how heavyhanded people are. My Copperplate teacher handed out about 4 or 5 nibs of various styles to try out, Gillots and Hunts. Most stuck with one or two favorites for the duration of the weekly class.

 

Just fyi, Brenda has the Brause broad-edged nibs customized into left obliques. The Mitchell left-handed nibs come that way from the factory. Both work fine. Brauses are nice. You'll have to buy a reservoir -- it slides on to the nib.

 

Looking forward to seeing your progress!