what nib produced this handwriting?

[unnarrator]

Hi everyone--so for a long time I've been a scholar of Woolf's work, and a couple of summers ago in a research library got to handle some of her personal correspondence. I knew she had beautiful handwriting but I was blown away by seeing it in person--the ink shading, the paper--it was a hypergraph's dream come true.

 

And of course ever since I've been seized with a burning desire to know WHAT KIND OF NIB the woman used. Or pen for that matter. Or ink, or paper, or *anything*! I'm soooo curious.

 

Unfortunately, the only sample I could find of hers online was...her suicide note. Kinda macabre, I know, but it's pretty decent at demonstrating her writing's italic-looking shapes (though it's obviously composed in haste, and seems thinner somehow, compared to her usual writing).

 

Any and all comments welcome, and thanks for your help!

 

[unnarrator]

Oh, and actually here's a sample of her signature which may be even more useful:

 

[RayMan]

Looks like an italic nib to me. Possibly .7 mm?

Edited November 22, 2008 by RayMan

[unnarrator]

I thought it looked italic too! Here are a couple more samples--sorry, can you tell I'm obsessed?

 

[wykpenguin]

Looks like an italic.

[Siv]

Well it certainly wasn't this:

http://www.montblanc.com/media/edition/Woolf_H_01.jpg

 

When you look at the writing, you don't see the darker to lighter progression that you may get with a dip nib. Of course a skilled user won't exhibit this but if you're writing casually I wonder if you would put this much effort into your writing.

 

So did she use a fountain pen? Given the time, maybe in her later writing she almost exclusively did...

 

By the way, this is pure conjecture on my part, I'm very far from an expert in such matters.

[unnarrator]

Well it certainly wasn't this...

I know, I always look at that Mont Blanc and think no *way* would she have used that!

 

So did she use a fountain pen? Given the time, maybe in her later writing she almost exclusively did...

I just assumed it was an FP; but her biographer Hermione Lee says: "...in the summer of 1934 she switched from an old-fashioned nib to a fountain pen." Certainly the letters I handled were after that date; and that one-page purple draft of The Waves as well.

 

EDITED: Whoops, the one-page purple draft is from Mrs. Dalloway, published in the '20s—so it could have well been written with a dip nib.

Edited November 22, 2008 by unnarrator

[SquelchB]

I'm not sure. The strokes don't really match. If italic then with very small line variation, more of a stub.

[Randal6393]

Mrs. Woolfe appears to have had italic training. The phrase "... women should learn ..." is written as an italic hand would be written, with separations between certain letters. IE, w/o/men sh/ould le/arn. In a cursive italic, the pen would be lifted and no ligature would be used between the letters indicated. Her writing does use more ligatures than would normally be used by many italic penmen, indicating that she wrote fast.

 

Also, the uphill slope to some of her sentences is a characteristic that appears often in italic cursive writing. Lines are not as important as getting the words down.

 

The shape of many of Mrs. Woolfe's letters reflects influences other than italic, for example, her "s" and her "e" seem more like traditional letters than italic letterforms.

 

I would say that she had some traits, picked up from italic, and other influences from traditional American writing styles, probably Palmer or Spenserian. In other words, a strong, well-developed personal hand. Which would be indicated by her personality and the strong will which is apparent in all of her work.

 

As for the type of pen, I am sure that she started with a dip pen and graduated to a fountain pen -- probably, over her writing career, had more than one. And thus the differences in thickness, variation, etc.

 

Most regrettable is the feeling apparent in her suicide note -- that she was going mad again and that life was no longer worth living. Most unfortunate.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Randal6393

[unnarrator]

Mrs. Woolfe appears to have had italic training. The phrase "... women should learn ..." is written as an italic hand would be written, with separations between certain letters. IE, w/o/men sh/ould le/arn. In a cursive italic, the pen would be lifted and no ligature would be used between the letters indicated. Her writing does use more ligatures than would normally be used by many italic penmen, indicating that she wrote fast.

 

Also, the uphill slope to some of her sentences is a characteristic that appears often in italic cursive writing. Lines are not as important as getting the words down.

 

The shape of many of Mrs. Woolfe's letters reflects influences other than italic, for example, her "s" and her "e" seem more like traditional letters than italic letterforms.

 

I would say that she had some traits, picked up from italic, and other influences from traditional American writing styles, probably Palmer or Spenserian.

Randal6393, that is a incredibly thoughtful and intriguing analysis. Based on what you've said, and the fact that Woolf did indeed write VERY quickly, I wonder if the upward slant of the lines isn't also to avoid dragging hand/cuff in still-wet ink from the dip nib?

 

Bumping cos I still want to know what all y'all amazing experts think!

[Maria]

Dear unnarrator;

 

I'll mention ahead of time, that I do not consider myself an 'handwriting expert.' However, I used to work in an office with several ages ago.

 

The first document - I believe it was written with a fountain pen with a non-flex nib, fine to medium nib; depending on the actual size of the document. Having an online look, with a little screen from a lap top can alter it's appearance. It is written by a right handed individual. It was written as mentally plotted before pen met paper. The writing is uniformed and not cramped; to which can be due to continued on to another sheet of paper or; having written drafts and thus adjusted the size of letters/words to fit onto one page.

 

The second document - I believe was writted with a fountain pen stub. Italic with the first few lines in planned writing style. Interrupted, say for bathroom, dinner, guest; then returned to it. Towards bottom middle, she is interrupted again for a longer period of time. Resuming, the angle of the letter and the words written are totally out of alignment and in a hurry to finish it up as to perhaps rush it to the mailbox or had to go somewhere else and not certain if to return to finish the letter. The document on the last portion of the writing is not using a 'under liner' sheet, which acts as a line guide; so it just blows away the uniformity of the letter in the boundaries of writing a sheet of paper from head to foot. I also believe the last lines were written in a cramped condition, such as a way too small of a table; such as on a telephone table, a tray on the arm of the sofa, in a telephone booth or something that didn't let the paper lay at the accustomed angle as the original start, the interruption and throws the lines upward and squeezed.

 

Just my assumptions, as I wasn't there to peek

 

Respectfully,

Maria

 

Post Script: I have a Waterman #12 that has a patent date in the late 1800's; so it could be a dip or fountain pen. But, what leads me to believe it is a fountain pen, is the consistancy of the ink flow for a longer period of time than with a dip pen. (I use dip and fountain pens and base it on my experiences alone). The first document is uniformed in its flow. The second document, I would be more inclined to think it could have been either dip or fountain pen. The second document shows the inconsistant ink fade of using a dip pen that is normal when I tend to write as many words I can before I need to dip. Yet, those stub nibs do take more ink to lay a broader line in a fountain pen and, if the writer writes until exhausting the reservoir of ink in the fountain pen, which would be more rapid than a fine nib fountain pen; it will cause word ink fade per se.

 

Women of my great grandmother, grand mother time wore sleeve covers; much like you see in the old Westerns (cowboy) at the telegraph and banker's offices. Along with a blotter; the sleeves acted as a barrier against ink and their white shirt sleeves and cuffs. Half of an old shirt sleeve with elastic on the two ends held it in place or in my great grandmother's case; string pulled and tied. Fancier ones would be laced with ribbon. Men often wore sleeve garters and sleeve coverings. Printers like my grandfather, wore an apron in addition to sleeve protectors; as not to ruin their shirts.

 

My grandmother often wrote with a sheet of paper under the writing hand; especially with thicker paper. It protected her hand, didn't oil the paper to cause ink to feather and protected her cuffs; as well as folding it under the bottom of the page (folding it upon itself to line up the straight edges then unfold and wrap under the page) acted as a guide to keeping lines of writing 'straight.' (Not that much different than roll of a typewriter's carriage, line it straight by end to end and tug--straighten paper before letting the roller be clamped into the carriage of the typewriter.

 

Maria

Edited November 24, 2008 by Maria

[unnarrator]

Thank you so much, Maria! Yep, you're totally right-on about these:

 

The writing is uniformed and not cramped; to which can be due to continued on to another sheet of paper or; having written drafts and thus adjusted the size of letters/words to fit onto one page.

It is indeed continued onto a second piece of paper.

 

Towards bottom middle, she is interrupted again for a longer period of time. Resuming, the angle of the letter and the words written are totally out of alignment and in a hurry to finish it up as to perhaps rush it to the mailbox or had to go somewhere else and not certain if to return to finish the letter.

It is part of a novel and not a letter, but Woolf was an extremely fast writer, and probably rushing to get down her ideas! I think those last few lines are inset or indented slightly because they are quotations/dialogue, however.

 

I also believe the last lines were written in a cramped condition, such as a way too small of a table; such as on a telephone table, a tray on the arm of the sofa, in a telephone booth or something that didn't let the paper lay at the accustomed angle as the original start, the interruption and throws the lines upward and squeezed.

I do believe Woolf often wrote on a chair arm, very small swivel desk, and/or on her lap in bed!

 

Thanks and bumping for more input—anyone else?

[BillTheEditor]

She wrote these pages with stub nibs (they made stub dip nibs, too -- I have some). You can write an italic hand with any pen -- even a ballpoint -- or with a pencil. When she was in school, italic handwriting was very popular in England (it was the influence of the Arts and Crafts movement) and was routinely taught to school children.

 

She has a very interesting modified cursive italic style. My old graphology training comes back to me -- her d's that look like deltas (see the d's in Tuesday and in mad in the first sample) and the epsilon-like e's are typical of many creative people in general and writers in particular.

 

You have to look at the thick and thin elements, not at the letterforms. There's not enough difference between the elements to have been what we would call an italic nib today. I have a Parker 75 with a stock stub nib that makes letter forms that look identical to the short sample in black ink.

 

In addition, I don't believe she would have been able to make that loop join from the W in Woolfe with an italic nib without tearing the paper and causing feathering.

 

At least, that's how it looks to me.

Edited November 26, 2008 by BillTheEditor

[Ondina]

I'm amazed at all the knowledgeable opinions, and enjoying them all. Form a non expert point of view, the fountain pen's nib used is almost identical to what we get today with Lamy italic nibs -many times described here as stubbish italics- and the line variation is certainly notable in her signature and second letter. I use 1.1 and 1.5 Lamy italics and although the signature is very close to the thickness I get with a 1.1, the second letter is a bit wider, 1.3 -just guessing, obviously-. But to me the result is even more italized, like the one I get when using the "wrong" side of the nib, which yields a more crisp result but still confortable to write with.

 

I have a Parker 75 with a stock stub nib that makes letter forms that look identical to the short sample in black ink.

If you would find the time to post a writing sample, I'll be most grateful.

 

Thanks for sharing this most interesting post.

[PenTieRun]

What a wonderful thread! I can't elucidate any qualities of her handwriting, but VW's works are certainly among my favorites. Next to the man on the left, she's at the top of my list. Thanks, unnarrator, for such a fascinating discussion.

 

Is your user name an allusion to the floating narrative voice that Woolf uses in many of her novels? By "floating" I mean the way in which the stream of conscious moves from character to character (for example, the dinner scene in Lighthouse)?

[BillTheEditor]

I have a Parker 75 with a stock stub nib that makes letter forms that look identical to the short sample in black ink.

If you would find the time to post a writing sample, I'll be most grateful.

 

 

I'm short of time today, but here is one sample (not done in a cursive italic, but you can see the contrast that the Parker stub gives). The Parker stub produced the writing in black at the bottom of the sample. The brown writing at the top was done with a broader Bexley stub.

 

[unnarrator]

::sound of jaw striking floor::

 

Not only beautiful italic writing, but gorgeous brown ink AND Gerard Manley Hopkins?! Sign me up, must have stub nib NOW! Thank you, Bill!

 

@PenTieRun: Alas, it's not an allusion to VW (though I am a Woolf freak) but to unreliable narrators wherever we may find them.

[SquelchB]

Now this handwriting is great!!!

[BillTheEditor]

Another sample from the Parker 75 with #44 stub nib. Noodler Ottoman Azure ink. This sample is more about what a stub nib does than it is about showing italic handwriting (this is pretty bad, truth be told).

 

http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u354/bill7b/FPN/Parker75Stubnibsample.jpg

[Annika]

I so envy you being able to handle her actual letters! Lucky you!!

 

I'm a huge fan of Virginia Woolf's Letter and Diary collections! Reading Volume 5 of her diaries now, and I've found that often in her entries she mentions she is 'just writing this to test this pen'!

 

Apparently she was always on the look out for one she liked, but often not finding it! (Sounds familiar....) Complains a lot about the steel nibs scratching on the paper, etc. " ...more like writing with a PIN, rather than a pen."

 

And like the other post mentions she did write very fast! She says, "I only stop long enough to dip the pen in ink....." then continues writing at a very rapid pace.