Line Variation: Stub/cursive Italic V. Flex/soft Nib?

[Josey]

So, I'm a fountain pen newbie. My pen collection is tiny: Pilot Metropolitan F and M, Pilot Prera F and M, TWSBI F and M, and Pilot Plumix (stub/italic).

 

Now, I just got the Plumix, and while I love the line variation, it looked too "calligraphy" for my tastes, which got me wondering...

 

What's the difference in type of line variation between, say, a stub/cursive italic nib and a flex/soft nib? Of course, the former doesn't need variations in pressure, while the latter does, but in terms of the *look* of the line variation?

 

When I think "ideal line variation" I think of old-timey italic lettering done with quill pens (Declaration of Independence, etc etc), NOT classic calligraphy. I'm not looking for extremes in line variation in the least, but a more natural look that, again, emulates the general "feel" of a handwritten letter from the 1800s or so, or John Hancock's signature.

 

Or is this all just a matter of handwriting style?

 

On a related note: Can anyone post a sample of cursive written with a "soft medium" Japanese/ "soft fine" European nib that's been ground to a stub/cursive italic? I'm currently saving for a Nakaya and I'd like guidance as to whether I should go for a smooth cursive italic medium nib or a smooth cursive italic soft medium nib.

 

Thanks!

[framebaer]

i would say the primary difference between italics and flexes is the style of the line variation.

 

Italics produce the variance by the angle of the writing ( generally thin across and wide down) while flexes vary the line by pressure not necessarily angle. This allows for a long sweeping line to go from very thin to a gradual widening to the ultimate pressure point.

 

I like to say to people that an italic nib makes anyones handwriting look better but a flexie is definitely a learned art. Once learned the ability to "flourish" one's writing is way beyond any italic nibs ability.

[Mickey]

 

When I think "ideal line variation" I think of old-timey italic lettering done with quill pens (Declaration of Independence, etc etc), NOT classic calligraphy. I'm not looking for extremes in line variation in the least, but a more natural look that, again, emulates the general "feel" of a handwritten letter from the 1800s or so, or John Hancock's signature.

 

Or is this all just a matter of handwriting style?

 

 

The Declaration was not penned in an Italic hand, but in 'round hand,' sometimes called English Round Hand. It is a style closely related to Copperplate and is generally penned with a flexible pointed pen, not an italic pen.

[Blue_Moon]

Italics produce the variance by the angle of the writing ( generally thin across and wide down) while flexes vary the line by pressure not necessarily angle.

 

That's exactly the difference - variance by angle vs. pressure. This is just my personal opinion, but I think a person with average skills achieving the "natural look" you mentioned would best accomplish the goal using a flexible nib. I guess that depends on how "natural look" is defined. However, talented people can make an italic sing.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Blue_Moon

[tonybelding]

Sometimes a picture is worth more than words...

 

http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/pens/round_stub_flex.jpg

 

Pardon my mediocre handwriting! John Hancock, I aint.

 

So... It's subtle. Stubs are easy to get, easy to use, and they do look good. I do find the flex nib pleasing to use, though, and it seems to produce a more old-timey and more natural look than the stub.

 

EDIT: I actually prefer an oblique, or "relief", stub for cursive writing, but they are less common than regular stubs.

Edited July 9, 2014 by tonybelding

[OcalaFlGuy]

Josey, a couple more points to consider.

 

That beautiful script on our Declaration of Independence is even More amazing if you consider it was written with the "fountain pen" of the day, a quill (feather) "pen". A writing implement just a couple notches above using a broken off stick. The sharp tip didn't stay that way very long and constantly had to be resharpened/reshaped. That was done with a small pocket knife for just that purpose. Hence the term for a small pocket knife of pen knife.

 

You might check out You Tube for vids of flex, Stub and Cursive Italic writing. There are Bunches of them.

 

As Framebaer alludes to above, even just Learning how to write with a flex nib Can be perilous. The general idea is you press down on the downstroke of the character you are writing and release that pressure for the upstrokes and side strokes. If during that learning period you mess up and get it backassards and say press down to Engage the flex on an upstroke, you may very well either tear into the paper or worse yet prong the ends of the flex nib. One of the Main reasons the major pen makers either didn't make or Stopped making flex nibs is their propensity to be damaged by the user, even by an Experienced pen user.

 

That's Not a issue (generally) with a Stub or a Well Ground Cursive Italic nib.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

[arran]

I have more added value with stubs and italics in office writing

Flex writing asks more attention at least my experience

[RMN]

Flex writing is a learned skill, takes time and a very good coordination.

 

Every fool (read: ME) can use a stub or italic. I love my italics, preferably 0.9 to 1.1 wide...

 

D.ick

[tonybelding]

Flex writing is a learned skill, takes time and a very good coordination.

 

Flex writing is easy. Just go a little slower and write normally.

 

Abusing your flex nib with calligraphic stunts is a learned skill that takes time and coordination, at least until the nib is sprung or develops cracks from metal fatigue.

[Ted A]

You should definitely spend some time in the Penmanship forum of Creative Expressions here on FPN. You can find all sorts of different, beautiful scripts to examine and learn.

 

If it were me, for how much a Nakaya costs I would make sure I KNEW exactly what nib I would want based on experience with using different nibs. That's kind of a high price to pay to experiment with, especially if you decide after you buy it that you don't like that kind of nib.

[tonybelding]

You might check out You Tube for vids of flex, Stub and Cursive Italic writing. There are Bunches of them.

 

As Framebaer alludes to above, even just Learning how to write with a flex nib Can be perilous. The general idea is you press down on the downstroke of the character you are writing and release that pressure for the upstrokes and side strokes.

 

YouTube has quite a few instructional videos that can show you exactly how to ruin a flex nib.

 

When writing cursive, it's natural for the fingers to apply slightly more pressure to the down strokes. It's unconscious, not something you need to think about or deliberately practice. (And if you are trained on ballpoints, then obviously you will need to lighten up!) I do think a flex nib will accentuate any inconsistency or sloppiness in your writing, thus it can nudge you to write slower and develop better penmanship in general.

[Obyekt]

 

The Declaration was not penned in an Italic hand, but in 'round hand,' sometimes called English Round Hand. It is a style closely related to Copperplate and is generally penned with a flexible pointed pen, not an italic pen.

Yep. But you can't do copperplate with an italic pen. Never. You have hairline upstrokes sometimes, that can't be done properly with an italic nib.

Declaration of Independence = flex.

[Chrissy]

Josey, a couple more points to consider.

 

That beautiful script on our Declaration of Independence is even More amazing if you consider it was written with the "fountain pen" of the day, a quill (feather) "pen". A writing implement just a couple notches above using a broken off stick. The sharp tip didn't stay that way very long and constantly had to be resharpened/reshaped. That was done with a small pocket knife for just that purpose. Hence the term for a small pocket knife of pen knife.

 

You might check out You Tube for vids of flex, Stub and Cursive Italic writing. There are Bunches of them.

 

As Framebaer alludes to above, even just Learning how to write with a flex nib Can be perilous. The general idea is you press down on the downstroke of the character you are writing and release that pressure for the upstrokes and side strokes. If during that learning period you mess up and get it backassards and say press down to Engage the flex on an upstroke, you may very well either tear into the paper or worse yet prong the ends of the flex nib. One of the Main reasons the major pen makers either didn't make or Stopped making flex nibs is their propensity to be damaged by the user, even by an Experienced pen user.

 

That's Not a issue (generally) with a Stub or a Well Ground Cursive Italic nib.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

Thank you Bruce, that's a very informative post. I will go and visit You Tube.

 

I have a very nice Bexley ATB that I bought on FPN, and I just can't get on with that 1mm stub nib. I need it slightly less broad and have tried to adjust it myself, but I'm too scared of taking too much off so it's still too broad

[Mickey]

Yep. But you can't do copperplate with an italic pen. Never. You have hairline upstrokes sometimes, that can't be done properly with an italic nib.

Declaration of Independence = flex.

 

Not really correct, as was demonstrated by Ken Fraser and Columba Livia in the Penmanship sub-forum some months ago. Copperplate can be written (with some difficulty) using a relatively fine, right-oblique edged pen (the same family of nibs as the italic). (I've tried; it is possible. It is also quite possible that the earliest example of Copperplate were written with just such a pen.) It does, however, requires some pretty fancy edge and point manipulation (turning the pen to vary the width of the shade, etc.) All one needs for a hairlines is to turn the pen such that the nib it tipped up on to a corner. It's an acquired skill.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mickey

[rwilsonedn]

 

Not really correct, as was demonstrated by Ken Fraser and Columba Livia in the Penmanship sub-forum some months ago. Copperplate can be written (with some difficulty) using a relatively fine, right-oblique edged pen (the same family of nibs as the italic). (I've tried; it is possible. It is also quite possible that the earliest example of Copperplate were written with just such a pen.) It does, however, requires some pretty fancy edge and point manipulation (turning the pen to vary the width of the shade, etc.) All one needs for a hairlines is to turn the pen such that the nib it tipped up on to a corner. It's an acquired skill.

 

OK, it's also possible to write a very nice-looking roundhand with a cheap ballpoint pen, as one of the members who hangs out in Penmanship shows from time to time. I think the question here is how should the OP, who is just starting, go about learning to write in a roundhand style, not what can a master do to show off.

ron

[Mickey]

 

OK, it's also possible to write a very nice-looking roundhand with a cheap ballpoint pen, as one of the members who hangs out in Penmanship shows from time to time. I think the question here is how should the OP, who is just starting, go about learning to write in a roundhand style, not what can a master do to show off.

ron

 

I thought that was fairly clear from the first 2 responses, i.e., those from me and framebaer. Round hand is not italic and is typically written with a flexible pointed pen. I quite consciously omitted any mention in my first post of how the hand might have been written in the past and only mentioned it after the following incorrect information was tendered. "But you can't do copperplate with an italic pen. Never. You have hairline upstrokes sometimes, that can't be done properly with an italic nib."

 

I could be wrong, but the OP does not sound motivated towards learning a new hand, ergo the question of writing implement and the Declaration is pretty much moot, anyway. If I am incorrect in my assessment, the OP should poke around the IAMPETH website and see what strikes his or her fancy

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mickey

[tonybelding]

There.... I replaced the scan above with one that illustrates much better than my first attempt.

 

There's a Goulet EF nib, a stub custom ground by Richard Binder, and a vintage Wahl-Eversharp.

[KateGladstone]

Re:

"old-timey italic lettering done with quill pens (Declaration of Independence, etc etc)"

The famous handwritten display copy of the Declaration of Independence uses no italic.

[balson]

i love both flex nibs and stubs for writing and drawing. the biggest decision factor i make between which ones i will use if i want to add a little flourish to my writing is the speed at which i choose to write. if i have to do a lot of thinking about what i am writing when i write or if i want to write quickly i will go with a stub nib every time.

[Bo Bo Olson]

IMO one should work one's way up the flex ladder. It allows you to develop a lighter Hand, and lets you learn how to press with out trying to make all nibs do the Olympic splits.

It is good to learn the basics of Italic Calligraphy, in it teaches you how to draw a letter and there are some 6 basic strokes that can be incorporated into one's writing.

You should hold all fountain pens like a featherless baby bird. Don't make baby bird paste.

 

Semi-flex can be used by the Ham Fisted. Many of us are/were Ham Fisted. It will give you some nice flair, sort of like a Springy ++ nib. You can make an occasional fancy stroke or letter. Essentially, you get that old time fountain pen flair from the first letter of a word being wider due to ease of tine spread, perhaps half the last letter and a nice fancy on crossing a T. This flex requires half the pressure of a true regular flex. The flex variation with in the set is minimum, in all 26 of mine seem to clump together.

It is not a nib for super fancy writing. In vintage pens, B and OB are writing nib sizes, not the fat blob of today.

A Pelikan 1409 '50's-65) or Geha 790 ('60-65) are good pens of this set as are '40's Wahl-Eversharp.

 

True regular flex....can be found in semi-vintage and vintage pens for sure. Today, many pen companies make a semi-nail instead of a regular flex. Semi-nail is a different nib set with less tine spread 2 X than a regular flex's 3 X a light down stroke. If you have only a semi-nail you could be confused thinking a semi-flex a 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex, because of the difference in ease of tine spread.

 

'Flexi'/maxi-semi-flex can be used by the Slightly Ham Fisted. Half the pressure needed to spread the tines 3 X from a semi-flex or 1/4th that of a regular flex.

There is variance with in this flex set. I went a bit AR when I got a few of these nibs. My first one that shocked me was a Rupp nib. I'd had a maxi-semi-flex pen, an Osmia-Faber Castell 540 Supra nib, but had not pressed the nib, thinking it as a 'noobie' as only a wet writer that many spoke of.

I knew that Rupp nib....made in Heidelberg from 1920-1970, was not a "Flex" nib, in I had a couple of Easy Full Flex nibs.

I walked around for 3 days saying wow, that's a maxi-semi-flex until, :eureka: I realized it was one of those 'flexi' nibs that some spoke of but did not define. I define it all the time now.

After a while I had a hand full of these 'flexi' pens. The variation of the nibs made me develop a system, since ditched in most folks don't have a lot of these pens....like some 400nn's or Osmia Supra nibbed pens. Some 6 of them were F-1, some 3 of them were F-1 1/4th, and the Rupp nib was F- 1 1/2. That is just to show there is that sort of variance in each of the more flexible nib sets. ((I had F-2 and F-2 1/4th in Easy Full Flex also.... I was a bit AR.))

These two flexes like a 'true' regular flex only spread their tines 3 X a light down stroke

 

 

Truly flexible nibs, spread their tines 4-5-6 or even 7 X a light down stroke, and at less pressure than a 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex. You need a light Hand. With your experience in lesser flex, you should be able to tell with out springing a nib, how much it flexes and stay under that. If a nib maxes at BBB one should only use BB.

Superflex is a term that can be used to describe these nibs.

 

Easy Full Flex, requires half the pressure of a 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex or 1/8th of a true regular flex.

A Wet Noodle, half of that, or 1/16th a well mashed regular flex.

 

Oxnard came up with the term, Weak Kneed Wet Noodle. That would be less.

I saw the results of a man with some 8 Wet Noodles, who measured pressure variance on an Electronic scale. The pressure variations were enough that about half of his pens could have been classified as Weak Kneed Wet Noodles.

 

There are dip pen nibs that are so flexible they make a Wet Noodle look uncooked. Hunt 99-100-101 or the fabled Gillette 303.

 

An Ahab is a semi-flex pressure "Flex" nib. That is a lot of hard work, when one has had other pens with lesser pressure.

It is a good cheap start though. When the Angel Wing/ Ahab Mod is done to the nib it is an Easy Full Flex nib. That makes the Ahab a fun pen.

Since a nice poster did that mod to my Ahab, it went from buried in the box to in rotation.

 

There is a large thread in one of the two Pen sub forums on this Mod. You can do it at home if you have a Dremil or send the nib off to Pendelton Brown, or perhaps he has some nibs already done that he can sell you, and you save postage.

It's a good pen to see what semi-flex pressure is, a start. With the Mod, a fun pen, where you can learn to draw letters for Copperplate and Spencerian.

Pull out Ahab loaded with Apache Sunset and scribble.

 

A fine poster described the difference between Stub&CI and nibs with some flex, as Stub & CI was max line variation at all times and nibs with some flex as line variation on demand.

You do have to wish it, by pressing a bit harder. That does make it a slower nib, but you can decide how much you want....and not be limited to what the stub or CI must give you.

.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson