Twsbi Diamond 580 Vs Pilot Nib Sizes

[Friar Whently]

Hey guys, quick question. I'll probably be ordering a Pilot Vanishing Point in the near future, but I'm not sure what nib size to get. I currently have a Lamy Safari in Fine and a TWSBI Diamond 580 in Fine. The thing is I've heard that "Eastern" nibs (from Pilot, Sailor, etc) run a bit smaller than "Western" nibs, and while TWSBI is Taiwanese, I've heard that they use "Western" sized nibs (at least on their 540s). That being said, my TWSBI is still a little finer than my Lamy, so maybe the 580 is using "Eastern" sized nibs?

I just don't want anything finer than my TWSBI, nor anything larger than my Lamy. If Pilot is still running smaller than what's on the 580s, then I'd get a medium nib in the VP, but if they're the same size, I'd get a fine nib. Does anyone know how they compare?

Many thanks for any info you could provide.

[whitedot]

Bit difficult. TWSBI and Lamy are both a bit hairy in their control of line widths. If I had to put money on it, I'd get the Pilot M. Pilot F is significantly finer than Pilot M, and Pilot is Japanese after all.

Edited September 17, 2013 by whitedot

[koofle]

What Whitedot said. I love my TWSBIs, but their nib widths can be a bit dubious. I have an EF nib that writes like an M and my 1.1mm stub is noticeably thicker than a penpal's 1.1mm stub. That being said, they are are some of the smoothest nibs I have. But for consistency, go Pilot. My friend has a Vanishing Point in EF and it is really fine. Tiny margin-scribbling fine.

[Friar Whently]

Interesting. Well, I haven't quite decided what to go with just yet, but after visiting the Nib Nook on gouletpens.com, I'm leaning towards a Pilot VP fine. Below is a pic from the Nib Nook with comparisons between the Pilot VP Fine and Medium, TWSBI 580 Fine, and the Lamy Safari Fine, in case anyone is interested. It seems that the VP Fine and the TWSBI are fairly comparable. The difference between the TWSBI and the Lamy below are consistent with my experience with the two pens (the Lamy having a slightly thicker line than the TWSBI), so perhaps these Nib Nook results can be relied upon.

 

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4656/am4s.jpg

[heymatthew]

Here's a quick sample I did comparing the VP Fine with the TWSBI EF... Hope this helps!!!

 

Best,

Matthew

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7425/9793475786_a6d56c59f8_b.jpg

 

And here is a link to the larger version: Original (2460 x 1400)

Edited September 18, 2013 by heymatthew

[whitedot]

My Pilot M is definitely not as thick as Goulet's writing sample suggests, and both my TWSBI F and Lamy F are thicker.

[dgerson]

I generally prefer fine but not super-fine nibs. I simply don't see the joy in a broad-ish nib. To each their own and all. When I picked up a VP last year I got a M nib listening to many report about western vs eastern nibs. Personally, I find it unbearably broad and a new nib in fine is on the to-do list. For frame of reference I have a 580 in fine (love it) and a safari in fine as well (a bit too broad but acceptable).

 

Take care!

[Friar Whently]

  On 9/18/2013 at 1:47 AM, heymatthew said:

Here's a quick sample I did comparing the VP Fine with the TWSBI EF... Hope this helps!!!

 

Best,

Matthew

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7425/9793475786_a6d56c59f8_b.jpg

 

And here is a link to the larger version: Original (2460 x 1400)

 

 

  On 9/18/2013 at 3:03 AM, whitedot said:

My Pilot M is definitely not as thick as Goulet's writing sample suggests, and both my TWSBI F and Lamy F are thicker.

 

 

  On 9/18/2013 at 3:34 AM, dgerson said:

I generally prefer fine but not super-fine nibs. I simply don't see the joy in a broad-ish nib. To each their own and all. When I picked up a VP last year I got a M nib listening to many report about western vs eastern nibs. Personally, I find it unbearably broad and a new nib in fine is on the to-do list. For frame of reference I have a 580 in fine (love it) and a safari in fine as well (a bit too broad but acceptable).

 

Take care!

 

Well all this is making things as clear as mud. I suppose the general consensus is that the Pilot Fine is a bit thinner than the TWSBI Fine. Seeing as how I write pretty small, I can deal with thinner than what I like, while thicker lines will make everything I write illegible. I guess I'll shoot for the VP Fine and see how it goes...

[DanF]

My VP fine is considerably finer than my TWSBI 540 fine. The VP medium is at least as wide as a western medium. If you write small, go for the VP fine.

 

Dan

[heymatthew]

  On 9/18/2013 at 3:57 PM, Friar Whently said:

I suppose the general consensus is that the Pilot Fine is a bit thinner than the TWSBI Fine.

 

Actually, the Pilot Fine is about the same (or maybe just slightly thinner) than a TWSBI Extra Fine.

[Friar Whently]

  On 9/18/2013 at 5:27 PM, DanF said:

My VP fine is considerably finer than my TWSBI 540 fine. The VP medium is at least as wide as a western medium. If you write small, go for the VP fine.

 

Dan

Ugh...is the Pilot M really that big? One would think that if their F is equivalent to a Western XF, their M would be equivalent to a Western F...

 

Well, looks like it'll probably be the F. For those with a Pilot F nib, how smooth so they tend to be? Seems like anything finer than my TWSBI F would be pretty scratchy...

Edited September 19, 2013 by Friar Whently

[Rndmness]

Yes, in general Eastern nibs are finer than Western nibs. I find that German nibs tend to be the widest. TWSBI sources their nibs from a German manufacturer (Bock or Jowo, can't remember) and as such will have wider nibs. Pilot nib sizes are typical Japanese sizes (one size smaller than their Western counterparts). Also, unlike Lamy, I find that Pilot has fairly consistent nib widths (i.e. a medium will be a specific width across multiple samples etc.)

[whitedot]

  On 9/19/2013 at 4:13 AM, Friar Whently said:

Ugh...is the Pilot M really that big? One would think that if their F is equivalent to a Western XF, their M would be equivalent to a Western F...

 

Well, looks like it'll probably be the F. For those with a Pilot F nib, how smooth so they tend to be? Seems like anything finer than my TWSBI F would be pretty scratchy...

 

The Pilot M is indeed approx. equivalent to a Western F:

 

http://www.nibs.com/TippingSizespage.htm

 

I swapped my Pilot F for a Pilot M because the Pilot F was way too thin and gave too much feedback for my liking. It would have been appropriate for margin notes.

[Friar Whently]

  On 9/19/2013 at 5:07 AM, whitedot said:

 

The Pilot M is indeed approx. equivalent to a Western F:

 

http://www.nibs.com/TippingSizespage.htm

 

I swapped my Pilot F for a Pilot M because the Pilot F was way too thin and gave too much feedback for my liking. It would have been appropriate for margin notes.

 

Welp, in one last desperate attempt to get something definitive, I emailed TWSBI and asked if they could provide me with millimeter nib widths of their F and M nibs so I could compare them with the Pilot measurements in the chart at the above link. This is their reply, copied and pasted straight from my email inbox:

 

"It's actually not possible, it's in between a range. All nibs are actually in between a certain range for each size. Ours are made by jowo which is German. Which will be wider than Japanese standard. Your best bet is to go with a medium nib on a Japanese pen as long as you know that nib is Japanese made, and not made somewhere else."

 

So there you have it, although it's much as I had suspected. TWSBI nibs are German and therefore of the Western nib size variety. Just in case anyone wanted to know...

[whitedot]

Earlier, they were Bock.

[Friar Whently]

Bit of an update. So I ended up getting the Pilot VP in Medium, despite my having previously decided on the Fine. Sort of a last minute decision. Well, it was a bit too broad for my tastes so I ended up ordering a Fine nib from Richard Binder (I got the VP itself elsewhere, but I decided that if the Fine was indeed as fine as everyone was saying, I'd like to have the nib as tuned and smooth as possible, a service Richard provides for free when you order a nib or pen from him).

 

Anyway, my Fine nib just arrived today and it's wonderfully smooth and just what I was hoping for. I should've just ordered the VP in Fine from the start...~$60 mistake. In testing my new VP nib against my TWSBI Diamond 580 Fine, it seems that the VP Fine is about as fine as my TWSBI. The VP tends to be more wet than the TWSBI which can make the VP line slightly thicker on cheap paper. Pics below:

 

 

This is written on cheap copy paper, comparing the TWSBI, VP Fine, VP Medium, and my Lamy Fine. The blue ink is Noodler's Navajo Turquoise and the Lamy is inked with a 5:1 mix of De Atramentis Petrol:Private Reserve DC Supershow Blue.

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/4246/0rzx.jpg

 

 

This one is written on an index card, which despite some funky feathering patterns, seems to keep the line widths in check a bit. The VP Fine is a little darker since it's a wetter nib than the TWSBI, but the line thicknesses between the two are pretty much the same.

http://imageshack.us/a/img401/2857/e0zl.jpg

 

 

So as far as what conclusions to draw from this, I think we can safely say the following:

1. The Pilot VP Medium is roughly equivalent to a Western Fine as evidenced by comparing the VP Medium and Safari Fine to each other. They appear to be equal thickness, although the two inks used between the two are different. Not sure if there's an apples/oranges scenario here, but this is in line with other peoples' experience.

2. When used on firmer, less feathery paper, the VP Fine and the TWSBI Fine have comparable line thicknesses, despite current TWSBI nibs being manufactured by a German company. One caveat is that my VP Fine has been Binderized (my TWSBI has not), so who knows what the thickness of the VP Fine was straight from the factory. If Richard smoothed the nib any, the process would necessarily remove minuscule amounts of material from the nib which could theoretically make the resulting line slightly thicker. The TWSBI Fine to VP Fine comparison may very well be trying to compare apples to oranges because of this.

 

So that's it. All I have to say is that I'm thrilled with my new VP Fine and I highly recommend Richard Binder if you're in the market for a new pen/nib, if only because of his Binderizing of all of his products prior to shipping. It's a shame that he no longer works on nibs that people send to him, but I think he will if you visit him at pen shows. All the best!

[heymatthew]

This is interesting... It looks like your Pilot F is the same as my Pilot F. But it looks like your TWSBI F is similar to my TWSBI EF. I've heard that there is more variation between nibs in the German market than there is in the Japanese market. It's interesting to actually see it...